If London, ONT got a Stadium?

[alko]

Am I the only one confused by the use of the word stadium instead of arena?

That how we say it in Europe. We have winter stadiums (Zimný štadión). Arena is something for Gladiators in ancient Rome.

 

[DowntownBooster]

That how we say it in Europe. We have winter stadiums (Zimný štadión). Arena is something for Gladiators in ancient Rome.

If the discussion was taking place on a European board that would make sense. However, in North America the word 'stadium' is associated with American football. Also, for Gladiators in ancient Rome, we usually associate them battling in the Colosseum.

 

[alko]

If the discussion was taking place on a European board that would make sense

This is a forum for a fans around the world. Not only for Winnipeg.

 

[GuelphStormer]

sometimes I use the word dinner when we are eating mid-afternoon. please waste two pages discussing it. thanks.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

As a comparison, Toledo OH and Bakersfield CA are American cities of similar size to London ONT. Interestingly you don't see anyone suggest that those cities should have teams in the NHL or any other major sports league because of course, that would be ridiculous but here we are actually discussing London ONT.

 

[miscs75]

Now the Knights can have a bigger arena to play in.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

sometimes I use the word dinner when we are eating mid-afternoon. please waste two pages discussing it. thanks.

Yes. Blue Jays play in Rogers Centre. Granted it’s Canadian spelling.

 

[DowntownBooster]

This is a forum for a fans around the world. Not only for Winnipeg.

Yes alko, I understand this is a forum for fans around the world and it's always good to see posts from members from various countries. I was responding to the initial post by cheswick regarding the term 'stadium' and the context used in this thread. No offense is intended to our forum members outside of North America as I was referring to the common terminology used by the majority of posters on these boards. A good analogy would be the use of the term 'football' as used by people around the world to describe what we in North America refer to as 'soccer'. For those of us that live here, if we were to be part of a forum that originates in Europe that discusses that sport, we should not be offended if questioned on our use of the term 'soccer' instead of 'football' since the majority of other posters would probably be from outside of North America. Again, no offense intended to yourself or anyone else outside of the U.S. and Canada regarding this issue.

 

[HugoSimon]

Some questions I have regarding the bolded:

-Define "High Density", as there are plenty of Canadian markets that support Hockey in varying degrees, in which one could argue is "high density" based on the personal parameters they set.

I meant that per person people spend a lot on hockey.

Just as Winnipeg would give far more support to hockey per capita than most southern cities.

Also, please provide evidence as to why you believe that it would be"farcical" that London would not pay the increased NHL ticket prices. It's already been argued fairly well by a few posters why it would not work. You need to provide some type of evidence or reasoning to counter this other than just stating it's "farcical".

How about the differential between CHL and NHL prices in virtually every Canadian city.

You don't know london if you think people wouldn't pay substantially more.

-How much of that 12 million is part of the GTA or very close to it? At least 6 million of those people are actually part of this metro area and are extremely unlikely to make the trek to London for a game.

IT's not either they do or they don't type situation.

If 10 percent of their fan base came from Toronto that would be huge. Keeping in mind per capita would mean the Toronto audience is 99 percent leafs 1 percent London.

Which isn't unreasonable when you consider how high ticket prices are in Toronto, and the number of people who have connections to London.

I'd also venture a guess that a few more millions are close to the GTA or Buffalo area and are more likely to support these franchises in these markets, as opposed to taking the additional time/travel to London. There's also the Windsor, Ontario area, which has already been explained to be part of Detroit's territory.

I had no idea it was so easy to cross the border.

My understanding was that after 911 this became a massive pain in the ass.

-You're last point for #4 isn't specifically an argument that London should get a team, but that hypothetically a second team in Toronto or a team in a city like Hamilton could potentially work in the future.

That team would already be there if it weren't for issues with territorial rights.

 

[HugoSimon]

As a comparison, Toledo OH and Bakersfield CA are American cities of similar size to London ONT. Interestingly you don't see anyone suggest that those cities should have teams in the NHL or any other major sports league because of course, that would be ridiculous but here we are actually discussing London ONT.

That's because it's the norm to have multiple teams of the same league in one city.

If new york metro was allowed to have 4 teams and only 4 teams this wouldn't even be a question.

The fact that TFC was such a success should be all the proof anyone needs to appreciate that Toronto/SouthOnt is an underserved market.

 

[GuelphStormer]

FYI, the London Knights won the first 3 games of their first round OHL, best of seven series with the Guelph Storm only to fall victim to an epic back end sweep in Game 7 on Tuesday night. Don't mess with the Storm, baby, we'll even spot you three games.

I would therefore like to nominate Guelph as the next stop in the NHL franchise acquisition tour. I will be happy to become (part) owner.

 

[Jets4Life]

I not remotely claiming that I have any idea how this works, but I'm not getting how Toronto isn't horribly over saturated.

In terms of NHL hockey teams , it's not.

London has 4 things on its side.

1) A well established high density of hockey fans, the idea that people wouldn't pay drastically higher prices for the NHL is farcical.

Quebec and Hamilton have more fans.

2) It is just outside Toronto's territorial rights, which pretty much means the team comes at half the cost of hamilton/markham.

Hamilton is outside the 50 mile radius, so they would not be encroaching on Toronto or Buffalo territory.

3) There's 12 million people in the region.

And only 500,000 in the London area. The other 11.5 million are Leafs fans, and will only visit when the Leafs are playing. Nobody from Kitchener, Hamilton, or Toronto is going to purchase a bunch of tickets to see a NHL team in London.

4) Because of Ontario's green belt, the surrounding regions will likely grow faster than anywhere else in the country. Your talking about an area with 2.5 million people which will be far closer to 3 million by the time a stadium gets built.

Winnipeg has more people and has grown at a faster rate than London over the past 10 years, and it has 300,000 more people. The 2.5-3.0 million people you speak of will not attend games. It's like including Montreal in the Ottawa area. Even though that would bring the total population to over 6 million people, only a small percentage will buy tickets, and that almost certainly would be from the Gatineau-Hull area.


The big obstacles are as follows

1) Obviously getting a team for cheap, which shouldn't be taken likely. The nhl could easily decline in value, it's a 2/3 ownership crises away from that. With a seattle expansion this risk only increases.

NHL franchises have never decreased in value.

2) The league being ok with it, which seems like a long shot, but I think they'd look the other way if economic entities in Toronto were hyped to have access to an alternative to the leafs.

Quebec, Toronto GTA, and several US cities are ahead of London.

4) Waiting a handful of years for population growth to continue/infrastructure to be developed.

That will never happen. It's too small of a market. The NHL would be looking at a Canadian market close to 1,000,000 people. London is about 100 years away from achieving that.

Regardless as someone who hates London, they have a ridiculously good location, both in terms of population growth and proximity to Toronto. Finding a way to make online viewership count would be the obvious trick.

Houston, Hamilton, Quebec, Atlanta, Kansas City, Portland, and Austin, all make better locations that London.

 

[NinjaKick]

London is a beautiful little city with a die hard hockey fanbase, would they sell out? Windsor is an hour away, you have Sarnia and the Chatham-Kent area etc. London is surrounded with all these little diehard hockey cities and towns... I don't think they'll have any problems selling tickets... problem is tv ratings and sponsors... billionaires and the NHL need a profit and they can do 1000x better in a big American city like Las Vegas or Seattle

 

[BattleBorn]

London is a beautiful little city with a die hard hockey fanbase, would they sell out? Windsor is an hour away, you have Sarnia and the Chatham-Kent area etc. London is surrounded with all these little diehard hockey cities and towns... I don't think they'll have any problems selling tickets... problem is tv ratings and sponsors... billionaires and the NHL need a profit and they can do 1000x better in a big American city like Las Vegas or Seattle

They're huge hockey cities, but Sarnia tickets are like $25 Canadian based on my quick google search. It's a pretty big jump from CHL to NHL pricing if the team is going to experience success, especially with the Canadian dollar revenue. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that if I was hoping to place an NHL franchise in Canada I'd want to be as close to as many people willing to pay higher prices for tickets as possible. I think that really only leaves Greater Toronto and, if we're not counting Hamilton as part of the GTA, Hamilton.

 

[HugoSimon]

In terms of NHL hockey teams , it's not.



Quebec and Hamilton have more fans.

Hamilton is outside the 50 mile radius, so they would not be encroaching on Toronto or Buffalo territory.

This is news to me, if that were the case than they'd logically be the better location.

And only 500,000 in the London area. The other 11.5 million are Leafs fans, and will only visit when the Leafs are playing. Nobody from Kitchener, Hamilton, or Toronto is going to purchase a bunch of tickets to see a NHL team in London.

You honestly think 99.9 percent of hockey fans in Toronto are Leafs Fans.

People like alternatives.

I've met more than a few blackhawks/tampa/etc fans.

The leafs have history but they also have decades of loserdom.

I question if you've ever lived in Toronto if you think they are all Leafs fans.

Winnipeg has more people and has grown at a faster rate than London over the past 10 years, and it has 300,000 more people. The 2.5-3.0 million people you speak of will not attend games. It's like including Montreal in the Ottawa area. Even though that would bring the total population to over 6 million people, only a small percentage will buy tickets, and that almost certainly would be from the Gatineau-Hull area.

That's a bad example because if it were the Nordiques in QC you know dam well a massive proportion of Montrealers would be their fans.

But thanks inadvertently bringing up a good point.

NHL franchises have never decreased in value.

And I've never died.

However plenty of cities have folded.

Quebec, Toronto GTA, and several US cities are ahead of London.

GTA2 is pretty much inseparable from London.

Quebec isn't all that much further along.

The city itself is bigger, but when you subtract montreal the regions around QC are not any bigger.

That will never happen. It's too small of a market. The NHL would be looking at a Canadian market close to 1,000,000 people. London is about 100 years away from achieving that.

But it's not just london it's the surrounding areas.

By your logic people in Brampton would never ever ever support the Leafs because they have to get to down town, find somewhere to park a car and then hop on a subway.

Compared to the difficulty of getting tickets London isn't remotely that extreme for Kitchener area.

Nor is it unimagible that people from the GTA would be coming in from time to time.

Again if 1 percent of GTA fans Preferred the "Ontario Team", that'd add a 10 percent bump in ticket sales.

Houston, Hamilton, Quebec, Atlanta, Kansas City, Portland, and Austin, all make better locations that London.

You have Houston, that's only the step up and only if you assume Houston will be better than Atlanta.

 

[Wolf357]

Same negative posters who laughed at Winnipeg getting a team are bashing other potential cities getting a Franchise.
If you A: have a existing newer NHL Arena
B: have a solid ownership with big pockets
And C: play the NHLs game and tow the party line...You just might get a Franchise.
You never know if an existing team goes bust...

 

[Jets4Life]

You honestly think 99.9 percent of hockey fans in Toronto are Leafs Fans.

I question if you've ever lived in Toronto if you think they are all Leafs fans.

People in the GTA are not going to drive to London to see an NHL team there (with the exception of the Leafs). It's a 5 hour commute total. Who on earth would do that?

GTA2 is pretty much inseparable from London.

The GTA and London are not even close. 2 1/2 hour commute each way. That is nearly the distance from Edmonton to Calgary.

By your logic people in Brampton would never ever ever support the Leafs because they have to get to down town, find somewhere to park a car and then hop on a subway.

Brampton to Toronto is a 35-40 minute drive. Far shorter than the 2.5 hour drive from London to Toronto.

Nor is it unimagible that people from the GTA would be coming in from time to time.

Only when the Leafs play

Again if 1 percent of GTA fans Preferred the "Ontario Team", that'd add a 10 percent bump in ticket sales.

That's likely because the vast majority of respondent are under the assumption that the "Ontario Team" will play in a new arena in the suburbs (Markham, Vaughan, etc). It would be 0% if the Ontario team would be London.

You have Houston, that's only the step up and only if you assume Houston will be better than Atlanta.

Houston will be a better NHL city than Atlanta. If any team relocates, Houston is the NHL's #1 destination.

 

[Jets4Life]

Same negative posters who laughed at Winnipeg getting a team are bashing other potential cities getting a Franchise.
If you A: have a existing newer NHL Arena
B: have a solid ownership with big pockets
And C: play the NHLs game and tow the party line...You just might get a Franchise.
You never know if an existing team goes bust...

It really depends on the size of the market. The NHL still has veto powers. In 1983, Bill Hunter convinced the Saskatchewan Government to built a new 16,000 seat for an NHL team, lined up wealthy investors, and was in the process of taking orders for season tickets, after he bought the St.Louis Blues, and tried to move them to Saskatoon.

The NHL vetoed the move, and Hunter ended up refusing to take part in the 1983 entry draft, and had the St.Louis Arena padlocked.

 

[Stephen]

I'm definetly looking at this from the bottom 10 NHL teams perspective where the canadian dollar is 90 cents or above. A London team could charge half the ticket price of the Leafs and that alone generating interest.

This is the blind spot in your scenario that you aren't seeing. Knowing that the NHL is going full corporate and chasing down $500 million in expansion fees these days with a handful of major US markets still untapped, why do you think there'd be an appetite to create a bottom ten market in a small town sitting between two Original Six markets?

If I were a billionaire or any kind of major business interest, why would I spend half a billion dollars to be someone else's budget option?

 

[Dogewow]

I meant that per person people spend a lot on hockey.

Just as Winnipeg would give far more support to hockey per capita than most southern cities.

Ok? This is true for a lot of Canadian cities and was never in dispute in this thread (at least not by myself). That being the case doesn't change the logistics of the population or business/financial backing of a city, which is really what's at the heart of the argument here. Hockey being a popular sport in a city doesn't mean much if the population can't logistically support an NHL franchise.

How about the differential between CHL and NHL prices in virtually every Canadian city.

You don't know london if you think people wouldn't pay substantially more.

I don't have doubts that some people in London are willing to do it. The fact is that when the price of a ticket jumps up a substantial amount, you're much less likely to buy tickets in greater quantities. Spending $10 to $20 for a single game is a whole lot different than spending a minimum of $50. A jump in prices such as this has a greater effect with the population base as small as it is.

IT's not either they do or they don't type situation.

If 10 percent of their fan base came from Toronto that would be huge. Keeping in mind per capita would mean the Toronto audience is 99 percent leafs 1 percent London.

Which isn't unreasonable when you consider how high ticket prices are in Toronto and the number of people who have connections to London.

Saying that there may be a possibility that some of the population of the GTA could travel to London isn't good enough. If you're going to invest what will ultimately be billions of dollars into an NHL franchise in a specific market, then you need to have a larger population base in the immediate area, as well as the necessary corporate business support, which London does not have.

Again this is more of an argument that a second team in the GTA could work, or that a closer market like Hamilton could possibly work (if territory rights did not come into play). Not an argument for a market two hours away that's essentially on its own in regards to population and TV territory.

I had no idea it was so easy to cross the border.

My understanding was that after 911 this became a massive pain in the ass.

Not really. I just travelled from Rochester, NY to Toronto last weekend to catch a Blue Jays game and have crossed the border a few times in the past year. It usually takes about a minute or so of questioning to get through (passports, where are you from, where are you headed, anything to declare, etc) and most of the time you're through with no issue as long as you aren't sketchy or have a criminal history. Can't speak to what it was like in the early 2000s though.

 

[HugoSimon]

Brampton to Toronto is a 35-40 minute drive. Far shorter than the 2.5 hour drive from London to Toronto.

Drive to and park are totally different things.

I'm not getting into the make believe free parking argument.

A whole lot of people end up parking at the yorkdale mall etc and hopping on a subway.

Especially if the game is during the week.


It's more like 2 hour each way if your leaving from the western end of the city.

Only when the Leafs play

The team hasn't won a cup in 50 years, which does damage the brand.

This idea that Toronto are die hard leaf's fans is totally unfounded.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

That's likely because the vast majority of respondent are under the assumption that the "Ontario Team" will play in a new arena in the suburbs (Markham, Vaughan, etc). It would be 0% if the Ontario team would be London.

Not remotely buying this argument if 1 percent of the GTA supported the team over the leafs that'd end up being like 10 percent of the audience in London.

Houston will be a better NHL city than Atlanta. If any team relocates, Houston is the NHL's #1 destination.

On what basis? It's the last major market I get that it is important, but there's not a lot of reason to think it'll be much better than phoenix/atlanta. I'm sure we all hope it is better but it is far from a slam dunk.

 

[Marmoset]

Having spent time in the Kitchener area, in my opinion relying on fans from there to support a team in London would be foolish. Some reasons:

1. There is already a huge base of Maple Leafs fans in Kitchener - they won't suddenly all become London fans.
2. Going to see the Leafs would be about the same distance as going to London; granted, traffic is better heading west. But ...
3. When the lake effect snow hits the London area, you have to be very brave to head down the 401 into London. Especially in early winter this is a practical consideration for some people.

I'm not even getting into the many, many reason this wouldn't work that have nothing to do with Kitchener. I think it's been covered already.

Obviously there would be some support from the area - but I don't think it would have a significant impact on a London franchise.

 

[go_leafs_go02]

FYI, the London Knights won the first 3 games of their first round OHL, best of seven series with the Guelph Storm only to fall victim to an epic back end sweep in Game 7 on Tuesday night. Don't mess with the Storm, baby, we'll even spot you three games.

I would therefore like to nominate Guelph as the next stop in the NHL franchise acquisition tour. I will be happy to become (part) owner.

Yes, and the day or two before Game 7, you were easily able to buy tickets for 27.50 each (total), if you went to the rink box office and bought them. That is in a way, extremely cheap. Knights also charge a flat fee regardless where you sit, so in playoffs, you can often get a lower bowl pair for $55 tax in, by walking to the box office and buying tickets when a chunk come available.

The only team I could see usurping the Knights is if the Leafs moved the Marlies to London. There would be a HUGE uproar though. Knights since 2004 have been a major identity point for the City, and perhaps if they had a few years of down time (ie, Hunters sold, missed the playoffs), maybe it would be palatable. But they've been getting 9,000 a game (sell-out) since 2004. Incredible to think really...

 

[Bjorn Le]

London has no chance. The only thing going for it is its 50 mile radius wouldn't overlap with Toronto and Buffalo (whereas Hamilton would). It has virtually no corporate support, and is not close enough to other population centres to make it work.

There are two locations in Ontario that would work. Second Toronto would work right now. And KW would work in 10-15 years (KW+Guelph is the same size as Winnipeg with a bigger economy). London, like Hamilton, will never work.

 

[Jets4Life]

Drive to and park are totally different things.

I'm not getting into the make believe free parking argument.

A whole lot of people end up parking at the yorkdale mall etc and hopping on a subway.

Especially if the game is during the week.


It's more like 2 hour each way if your leaving from the western end of the city.

lol....ok then

The team hasn't won a cup in 50 years, which does damage the brand.

This idea that Toronto are die hard leaf's fans is totally unfounded.

Exhibit A: New York City.

The Islanders won 4 Stanley Cups in a row in the 80s, and even during the mid 80s, there were far more Ranger fans than Islander fans.
The Devils won 3 Stanley Cups from 1995-2003, and were one of the NHL top teams for the decade ending in the lockout. They still had trouble filling the arena, and when the Rangers came to play, it would be 1/2 Ranger fans in the Meadowlands.

Toronto is, and will always be a Leafs city, with any second team from Southern Ontario a distant second.