If London, ONT got a Stadium?

Jets4Life

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Dec 25, 2003
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London has no chance. The only thing going for it is its 50 mile radius wouldn't overlap with Toronto and Buffalo (whereas Hamilton would). It has virtually no corporate support, and is not close enough to other population centres to make it work.
There are two locations in Ontario that would work. Second Toronto would work right now. And KW would work in 10-15 years (KW+Guelph is the same size as Winnipeg with a bigger economy). London, like Hamilton, will never work.

Kitchener-Waterloo would never work either.

Hamilton is a far better location to put a team than Kitchener.
 

GuelphStormer

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Mar 20, 2012
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Kitchener-Waterloo would never work either.

Hamilton is a far better location to put a team than Kitchener.
Local fanbase and corporate support is there and either location could support an NHL franchise but both face the same obvious structural barriers ... need of a new $600M+ arena, stable deep-pocket ownership and, of course agreement by the league. No doubt, those barriers are prohibitive for all sorts of reasons, but there's can be no doubt now that the money, numbers and enthusiasm for the product exist now if a team were to magically show up in either market.
 

Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
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Kitchener-Waterloo would never work either.

Hamilton is a far better location to put a team than Kitchener.

Pretty sure you just said that because I said it has a bigger economy than Winnipeg (it does).

Over the years I've posted enough posts demolishing the argument that Hamilton is a good location. I'll summarize:

1) Hamilton would need to build a new arena. Half their appeal is they have an arena that is ostensive up to NHL snuff. FirstOntario is not.
2) Hamilton would have to pay Buffalo and Toronto indemnities for entering their exclusion zones. Various Hamilton posters have tried to play musical chairs with the geography to get Hamilton out of this but even if the NHL accepts that Hamilton is outside Buffalos (they're not), their zone would overlap with Buffalo's almost entirely on this side. Same with Toronto.
3) Hamilton is not a wealthy city.
4) Hamilton has virtually no hometown corporate support.
5) Hamilton is not actually that big. It's about the same size as KW+Guelph, and if your argument is people will drive in from elsewhere to go to games, that argument also exists for KW.

Why would any prospective NHL owner go through that hassle? I don't even have to make the argument that KW is the alternative to say Hamilton is bad; Hamilton is bad unto itself. KW is an alternative looking into the future when it's metro area will surpass Hamilton in size, and it's economy will continue to dwarf Hamilton's.
 

Jets4Life

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Why would any prospective NHL owner go through that hassle? I don't even have to make the argument that KW is the alternative to say Hamilton is bad; Hamilton is bad unto itself. KW is an alternative looking into the future when it's metro area will surpass Hamilton in size, and it's economy will continue to dwarf Hamilton's.

It's not going to happen anytime in my lifetime. Maybe in 50-75 years. Kitchener-Waterloo has 567,000 people in its metro area, and has grown at about the same rate (percentage wise), as Winnipeg has (832,900) in the last 10-15 years. Hamilton has just under 800,000 people in it's CMA. I have no idea how big the economy is, but I'm fairly skeptical that it could eclipse a city with nearly 300,000 more people (Winnipeg).
 

Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
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It's not going to happen anytime in my lifetime. Maybe in 50-75 years. Kitchener-Waterloo has 567,000 people in its metro area, and has grown at about the same rate (percentage wise), as Winnipeg has (832,900) in the last 10-15 years. Hamilton has just under 800,000 people in it's CMA. I have no idea how big the economy is, but I'm fairly skeptical that it could eclipse a city with nearly 300,000 more people (Winnipeg).

That’s because you don’t understand KW. You are quoting the population of the regional municipality. Which doesn’t include Guelph which is 15 minutes outside Kitchener, and none of the small cities within 30-40km that are in other municipalities. CMAs are very unreliable for capturing the true metro size when there are so many other big CMAs around/different municipalities. Put the surrounding cities into KWs metro and you have about 700-750,000 people. Negligibly smaller than Hamilton and Winnipeg (and Hamilton’s is bolstered by Burlington, where people will say they’re from the GTA not the GHA). But what isn’t the same is an economy that is significantly bigger and more important.

Waterloo region 2nd fastest-growing census metropolitan area in Canada: StatCan

Guelph was top-5 last year. And it’s sustainable growth too backed by a growing economy and three growing universities (that do very different things which has led to a strong synergy).
 

blueandgoldguy

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Oct 8, 2010
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Kitchener is inside Toronto's territory is it not? It is less then 100 miles away from the Scotiabank Arena so there would be territorial issues that would need to be resolved. No different then Hamilton in that regard.
 

Jets4Life

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Dec 25, 2003
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That’s because you don’t understand KW. You are quoting the population of the regional municipality. Which doesn’t include Guelph which is 15 minutes outside Kitchener, and none of the small cities within 30-40km that are in other municipalities. CMAs are very unreliable for capturing the true metro size when there are so many other big CMAs around/different municipalities. Put the surrounding cities into KWs metro and you have about 700-750,000 people..

I stick to what Statistics Canada says. Same old argument "everyone within an two hour drive will come to Kitchener to see an NHL game. We have a metro popualtion of 2.4 million!"
 
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Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
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I stick to what Statistics Canada says. Same old argument "everyone within an two hour drive will come to Kitchener to see an NHL game. We have a metro popualtion of 2.4 million!" Ok buddy.

Lol, I didn’t even make that argument. But I’m glad you’re freely admitting at this point that your knowledge on the subject subsists of a 30 second read of a Wikipedia info box.

Kitchener is inside Toronto's territory is it not? It is less then 100 miles away from the Scotiabank Arena so there would be territorial issues that would need to be resolved. No different then Hamilton in that regard.

It’s a 50 mile radius, but if we base it on overlapping zones (100mile), they are well outside Buffalo’s. Which is the real issue in that regard for Hamilton. However, territorial issues aren’t the problem. Any second Ontario team will deal with it in some way.
 

Jets4Life

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Lol, I didn’t even make that argument. But I’m glad you’re freely admitting at this point that your knowledge on the subject subsists of a 30 second read of a Wikipedia info box.

I did not read this on Wikipedia. Kitchener-Waterloo's best chance to obtain a franchise was Balsillie trying to buy a NHL team a decade ago, and sadly antagonized the NHL owners.
 
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NinjaKick

life as a leafs fan
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if we base a city in Canada getting an NHL team on filling arena... there would be at least 4 more NHL teams in Canada... filling an arena is just not enough profit alone... you need sponsors and ratings.... and most importantly... what about that entry fee, the arena costs, the salary cap floor, the Canadian dollar... you need a long term committed Billionaire with money to burn... you wont make a short term profit in Canada, there's not enough people and not enough money... and apparently not enough Billionaires...

unfortunately, and imo... Canada wont be getting a new team anytime soon...
 
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Jets4Life

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if we base a city in Canada getting an NHL team on filling arena... there would be at least 4 more NHL teams in Canada... filling an arena is just not enough profit alone... you need sponsors and ratings.... and most importantly... what about that entry fee, the arena costs, the salary cap floor, the Canadian dollar... you need a long term committed Billionaire with money to burn... you wont make a short term profit in Canada, there's not enough people and not enough money... and apparently not enough Billionaires...

unfortunately, and imo... Canada wont be getting a new team anytime soon...
A second team in the GTA would be a instant success.
 

HugoSimon

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
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lol....ok then





Exhibit A: New York City.

The Islanders won 4 Stanley Cups in a row in the 80s, and even during the mid 80s, there were far more Ranger fans than Islander fans.
The Devils won 3 Stanley Cups from 1995-2003, and were one of the NHL top teams for the decade ending in the lockout. They still had trouble filling the arena, and when the Rangers came to play, it would be 1/2 Ranger fans in the Meadowlands.

Toronto is, and will always be a Leafs city, with any second team from Southern Ontario a distant second.
Comparing Toronto to Newyork when there are over a dozen major league teams is a joke.

Canada is a hockey first country just as the US is Football. I know it sounds exciting to imagine hockey being as big to our south as it is in Canada but it's unlikely to ever happen.
 

Jets4Life

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Comparing Toronto to Newyork when there are over a dozen major league teams is a joke.

Canada is a hockey first country just as the US is Football. I know it sounds exciting to imagine hockey being as big to our south as it is in Canada but it's unlikely to ever happen.
Why are you comparing football to hockey, when I never mentioned football whatsoever. I had stated that the Rangers will, and always will be by far, the most popular NHL team in the NYC area. Not sure how you intrepid my post as saying hockey is as big as football in NYC.
 
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HugoSimon

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Jan 25, 2013
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if we base a city in Canada getting an NHL team on filling arena... there would be at least 4 more NHL teams in Canada... filling an arena is just not enough profit alone... you need sponsors and ratings.... and most importantly... what about that entry fee, the arena costs, the salary cap floor, the Canadian dollar... you need a long term committed Billionaire with money to burn... you wont make a short term profit in Canada, there's not enough people and not enough money... and apparently not enough Billionaires...

unfortunately, and imo... Canada wont be getting a new team anytime soon...
1) All relocations rely on Arenas being built in whatever part of southern ontario builds a suitable arena first will likely be top of the list.

2) Every sports team is reliant on big pocketed owners. The benefit that Canada has is the odds are greater that the owners and their associates are already interested in Hockey.

3) The corporate money will come from all across the province. It's not a reaching statement to appreciate how clustered the windsor oshawa corridor is. This isn't a US city being pinned in by lake, frigid cold to the north, international borders and a greenbelt do a whole lot to stretch the geography.

4) The region outside the greenbelt is gonna grow a whole lot faster as a building restrictions force companies and people to move west. This cannot be understated. The definition of CMAS will blur as the space between cities experience more and more settlement. The greenbelt is forcing the extension of greater Toronto westward. Cambridge etc are quickly becoming parts of the GTA and Vice Versa.

5) The television rights will come down to some sort of Rogers Bell split etc, where two competing companies are trying to sell their particular brand of sporting.
 

NinjaKick

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Dec 5, 2018
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1) All relocations rely on Arenas being built in whatever part of southern ontario builds a suitable arena first will likely be top of the list.

2) Every sports team is reliant on big pocketed owners. The benefit that Canada has is the odds are greater that the owners and their associates are already interested in Hockey.

3) The corporate money will come from all across the province. It's not a reaching statement to appreciate how clustered the windsor oshawa corridor is. This isn't a US city being pinned in by lake, frigid cold to the north, international borders and a greenbelt do a whole lot to stretch the geography.

4) The region outside the greenbelt is gonna grow a whole lot faster as a building restrictions force companies and people to move west. This cannot be understated. The definition of CMAS will blur as the space between cities experience more and more settlement. The greenbelt is forcing the extension of greater Toronto westward. Cambridge etc are quickly becoming parts of the GTA and Vice Versa.

5) The television rights will come down to some sort of Rogers Bell split etc, where two competing companies are trying to sell their particular brand of sporting.
I don't think it's enough to get a team here in the near future... but I'm always wrong in life... alot.. so hopefully, I,m wrong again..
I just don't think there's enough money in Canada compared to the States... and that $650 million US entry fee... big stop sign, that's not cool... at all... sums up the NHL perfectly
if it wasn't about money and more about the sport... Canada would have at least 4 more teams imo... and we would be allowed to play in the Olympics... what a kick in the moose balls
you can't underestimate Canada when it comes to sports... so many places could fill an arena... Quebec has been ready to go... what's taking so long? Hamilton, Toronto, London or Windsor, Halifax, Saskatoon...

if we do get a team... I think it will be the same thing with Atlanta going to Winnipeg... a last ditch effort... but this time we get the leftovers in Arizona... and look at the Jets... we'll be doing the NHL a favour... you'd think they would at least waive that entry fee...

and I understand, I am being extremely doom and gloomed... it's just the way I see it
 
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BattleBorn

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Feb 6, 2015
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...
if it wasn't about money and more about the sport...

...
Well, there's your issue.

The NHL is a business and this is the business of hockey board. So, while it's great to consider how great everything would be if it was all about the sport, that's not the case. There's CHL, NCAA, and other minor league boards that might be a little more in that lane. London's even got a thread on one of them.
 
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NinjaKick

life as a leafs fan
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Well, there's your issue.

The NHL is a business and this is the business of hockey board. So, while it's great to consider how great everything would be if it was all about the sport, that's not the case. There's CHL, NCAA, and other minor league boards that might be a little more in that lane. London's even got a thread on one of them.
GOJHL is my area's thing...
the crowds get intense... to put it nicely... ridiculous amounts of fun with friends and a fun cheap night out with a significant other... and the players are legit they don't hold back...
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a place to talk about that league on here.
that said... nothing matches the atmosphere of an NHL playoff game... I'll be moving to an NHL city soon, can't wait... but I will absolutely miss the local minor league...

as for the Olympics... I don't understand it... but this is not the place for that...
 

canuckfan75

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Why are we talking about this there is no chance this happens. so lets just move on . my opnion
 

Jets4Life

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Why are we talking about this there is no chance this happens. so lets just move on . my opnion
This is the last thing I will say about playing a team in either London or Waterloo/Kitchener. The reason I am skeptical about a team succeeding in either city, is due to the fact that the Winnipeg Jets play in a metro area of 832,000 people. Last year, we barely sold out the Western Conference Finals vs Vegas. Not due to lack of interest, but because of the fact that many people after blowing their budget in the first 2 rounds could not afford to pay $1000 for 2 tickets. Many were banking on Winnipeg defeating Vegas in hopes of getting tickets to the Cup Final. Teams like Winnipeg break even, and with TNSE, has done an incredible job of being competitive in the NHL. Otherwise, Winnipeg would be losing money just as they did when they had a franchise from 1979-96.

If Winnipeg can barely support a team, how do people expect either London or Kitchener to support one, having almost 300,000 less people. Additionally, the proponents of placing a team in these regions always point out that their population is greater, since there are several cities in a 100km radius. The bitter truth is that if Kitchener were to get an NHL team, very few people outside the Kitchener-Waterloo area would come to see these games. Residents in Burlington, Hamilton, Milton, Oakville, etc are not going to drive a fair distance into Kitchener to see a team that is not even theirs. There are tons of examples to cite in other sports.

I would personally love to see a team in Southern Ontario. However, the fact is that the NHL is looking at a second GTA team, and not anywhere else in the area. If the NHL wanted to place a team in Hamilton, Kitchener, or London, it would have been done years ago. Even after paying a huge amount in territorial rights, a second NHL team in the 905 GTA area is far more appealing to the league.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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the only problem is MLSE controls the 905, why do you think Missisauga allows the Raptors affiliate in their arena (Paramount Fine Foods Centre)
 

GuelphStormer

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Mar 20, 2012
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If Winnipeg can barely support a team, how do people expect either London or Kitchener to support one, having almost 300,000 less people. Additionally, the proponents of placing a team in these regions always point out that their population is greater, since there are several cities in a 100km radius. The bitter truth is that if Kitchener were to get an NHL team, very few people outside the Kitchener-Waterloo area would come to see these games. Residents in Burlington, Hamilton, Milton, Oakville, etc are not going to drive a fair distance into Kitchener to see a team that is not even theirs. There are tons of examples to cite in other sports.

I would personally love to see a team in Southern Ontario. However, the fact is that the NHL is looking at a second GTA team, and not anywhere else in the area. If the NHL wanted to place a team in Hamilton, Kitchener, or London, it would have been done years ago. Even after paying a huge amount in territorial rights, a second NHL team in the 905 GTA area is far more appealing to the league.
im not suggesting that the league is beating down the door to KW but there are so many bad assumptions here. a) people routinely drive to and from neighbouring cities here, indeed it takes less time to drive twice the distance around here than it does to drive into gridlocked toronto. b) how do you know that the NHL is exclusively considering the GTA? c) you do know that the league pays no territorial fees, right?
 
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Jets4Life

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im not suggesting that the league is beating down the door to KW but there are so many bad assumptions here. a) people routinely drive to and from neighbouring cities here, indeed it takes less time to drive twice the distance around here than it does to drive into gridlocked toronto. b) how do you know that the NHL is exclusively considering the GTA? c) you do know that the league pays no territorial fees, right?
a) It's been proven time and time again with NHL, NBA, and MLB teams. The people who purchase season tickets will almost be entirely in their respective metro area. If K-W hypothetically built an arena and lured a team to the area, they should not expect people from Hamilton, Mississauga, Milton, Burlington, Brantford, and London to buy tickets on a regular basis.
b) If the NHL puts a team in Southern Ontario, it would be in the Greater Toronto Area, most likely Markham, Vaughan, or in the 905 belt-line. There are already preliminary plans to build a second arena in the GTA. They have millions of people to draw from, and considering the wait list for Maple Leafs games, it would have over 6,000,000 people to market to. It is a far cry from the 500,000+ that London or Kitchener-Waterloo have.
c) I never said the league pays territorial rights. You misunderstood my post. It would be the new team in the GTA that would have to pay the Toronto Maple Leafs likely over $100 million for encroaching on their market.

Too many are assuming that people outside the Kitchener-Waterloo CMA will drive long distances to see a team that is not even their own, buy a substantial amount of tickets for the games. This rarely happens in other markets. Why would Kitchener be unique?
 
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Jets4Life

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Westward Ho, Alberta
the only problem is MLSE controls the 905, why do you think Missisauga allows the Raptors affiliate in their arena (Paramount Fine Foods Centre)
Like Dallas controls the Austin, Texas market, right @CHRDANHUTCH?

People have explained this to you time and time again on other forums. You refuse to listen. You seem to think if the AHL is in a certain city, then the parent club control that market. Before the Winnipeg Jets returned, the Manitoba Moose parent club were the Vancouver Canucks. If what you have said is true, then the Canucks would have a say in whether Winnipeg received an NHL team. Of course that is not how it works, but dozens of us have pointed that out to you in the past couple of years, but believe what you want.

Having said that, Toronto would have a right to veto any plans of expansion into the GTA market, but if the price is right, they would allow it. The Rangers could not stop the Devils from entering their area, and the Kings could not stop the Ducks from playing in the Greater LA market.
 
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GuelphStormer

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a) It's been proven time and time again with NHL, NBA, and MLB teams. The people who purchase season tickets will almost be entirely in their respective metro area. If K-W hypothetically built an arena and lured a team to the area, they should not expect people from Hamilton, Mississauga, Milton, Burlington, Brantford, and London to buy tickets on a regular basis.
hogwash. no such thing has been "proven". of course most will be proximate but look into what proportion of Sabres STH and walk-ups live in Canada, Southern Tier, and east of Rochester and then tell us that people don't drive to games. indeed, the Sabres would not survive without these distant buyers.
b) If the NHL puts a team in Southern Ontario, it would be in the Greater Toronto Area, most likely Markham, Vaughan, or in the 905 belt-line. There are already preliminary plans to build a second arena in the GTA. They have millions of people to draw from, and considering the wait list for Maple Leafs games, it would have over 6,000,000 people to market to. It is a far cry from the 500,000+ that London or Kitchener-Waterloo have.
there are plans, are there? i see, do share what you know. i bet its either five years old or fluff.
c) I never said the league pays territorial rights. You misunderstood my post. It would be the new team in the GTA that would have to pay the Toronto Maple Leafs likely over $100 million for encroaching on their market.
read your post again. you conflated two related but separate issues. be clearer. and im interested, how do you arrive at $100M? thin air? you also do realize that MLSE's historic and presumed current opposition to GTA2 is not out of fear of losing Leafs fans, right? no, it's based on opposition to a competing venue.
Too many are assuming that people outside the Kitchener-Waterloo CMA will drive long distances to see a team that is not even their own, buy a substantial amount of tickets for the games. This rarely happens in other markets. Why would Kitchener be unique?
"a team that is not even their own"? your understanding of team affinity is lacking. it's hardly exclusive to proximity to the shed.

look, again I am not advocating a slam dunk with a new franchise in KW, but your understanding of what does and does not work or what factors present structural or temporal barriers is naive.

read the 2011 Mowat Report if you'd like to better understand. https://mowatcentre.ca/wp-content/uploads/publications/19_the_new_economics_of_the_nhl.pdf
 

Just Linda

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Feb 24, 2018
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It's been said many times here already but half a million isn't big enough to support an NHL team. The NHL had major concerns with Winnipeg and their 800k population.
 

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