Speculation: If Liles gets dealt..

[Gallagbi]

How do Bolland, Bernier or Clarkson impact how Liles is considered overpaid and how best to dispose of him, and by which type of buyout should have been used discussion?.

Those players don't even play the same position of defense. Liles is still a contract mistake and redundant depth player regardless of what the forwards or goalie cap situation is.

Nonis got 3 Dmen Ranger ($1 mil), Franson ($2 mil) and Fraser ($1.2 mil) all signed for just a little more than Liles makes, and all expected to play ahead of JML.

I said they impact our cap situation. I'll re-post it for you

How's the cap situation without Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson? Nonis had options and chose to put himself in this situation. Some don't feel it's all that bad, some do.

If we're not in a cap crunch, Liles isn't a huge problem. The cap crunch came from Nonis's other moves.

How he's handled the 3 buyouts is being questioned now, it'll be interesting to see if/how he gets out of it.

 

[Mess]

I said they impact our cap situation. I'll re-post it for you


If we're not in a cap crunch, Liles isn't a huge problem. The cap crunch came from Nonis's other moves.

Liles was acquired for a 2nd round pick and signed to a 4 year extension and the discussion here is he should have been compliance bought out because he is useless and cost too much cap.

That makes his trade bad, his re-signing bad and the one responsible for all that is gone already no matter how posters try to spin it.

Complaining about how Nonis should have best resolved the Liles mistake he inherited has nothing to do with Clarkson, Bernier or Bolland other than they occupy cap space in different positions as do all the other players on the team.

If Liles ends up in the AHL in a couple of days or sits in the pressbox it doesn't make his contract any less of mistake, nor hurt the Leafs any less in terms of HIS cap consequences in terms of HIS contribution. Is it really that hard to hold the GM accountable that made the mistake without trying to blame other players or GM to try and deflect it?

 

[Gallagbi]

Liles was acquired for a 2nd round pick and signed to a 4 year extension and the discussion here is he should have been compliance bought out because he is useless and cost too much cap.

That makes his trade bad, his re-signing bad and the one responsible for all that is gone already no matter how posters try to spin it.

Complaining about how Nonis should have best resolved the Liles mistake he inherited has nothing to do with Clarkson, Bernier or Bolland other than they occupy cap space in different positions as do all the other players on the team.

If Liles ends up in the AHL in a couple of days or sits in the pressbox it doesn't make his contract any less of mistake, nor hurt the Leafs any less in terms of HIS cap consequences in terms of HIS contribution. Is it really that hard to hold the GM accountable that made the mistake without trying to blame other players or GM to try and deflect it?

Nobody is saying Liles is a good contract, but Nonis knew what he was inheriting. The question is how he's built from there and handled the overall cap space. You act like Liles popped up out of nowhere and is now this anchor he had no idea about or no choice with.

Nonis was given 2 compliance buy-outs and a certain amount of cap space. How he's handled them is something many people are questioning right now.

 

[theIceWookie]

I said they impact our cap situation. I'll re-post it for you


If we're not in a cap crunch, Liles isn't a huge problem. The cap crunch came from Nonis's other moves.

How he's handled the 3 buyouts is being questioned now, it'll be interesting to see if/how he gets out of it.

Those buyouts were being questioned long before now. Nonis mishandled those badly.

Liles should have been amnestyed. He totally kiboshed the idea that he had trade value.

I still can't believe Grabo had no value, but apparently Nonis either didn't think he did or didn't ask around.

But those two should have been complianced. Longer term made them harder to buyout normally. It would have affected the team too much.

Komisarek should have just been bought out normally. Let his cap hit from the buyout sit on the team for just two years.

Instead we're now looking at Liles putting us between a rock and a hard place. We could by some fancy moving make it through some how, but likely at the expense of playing through injuries at a full roster and maybe having to pass on some trades (that could be devestatingly difficult for Nonis).

The whole buyout situation was completely and utterly mishandled.

Liles was acquired for a 2nd round pick and signed to a 4 year extension and the discussion here is he should have been compliance bought out because he is useless and cost too much cap.

That makes his trade bad, his re-signing bad and the one responsible for all that is gone already no matter how posters try to spin it.

Complaining about how Nonis should have best resolved the Liles mistake he inherited has nothing to do with Clarkson, Bernier or Bolland other than they occupy cap space in different positions as do all the other players on the team.

If Liles ends up in the AHL in a couple of days or sits in the pressbox it doesn't make his contract any less of mistake, nor hurt the Leafs any less in terms of HIS cap consequences in terms of HIS contribution. Is it really that hard to hold the GM accountable that made the mistake without trying to blame other players or GM to try and deflect it?

The trade wasn't bad. It was the resulting decision to sign a player who had not recovered properly from a concussion bad.

 

[Stephen]

Getting rid of Liles for nothing would be nothing short of a minor coup, getting an asset back would be a bonus.

 

[Mess]

Instead we're now looking at Liles putting us between a rock and a hard place. We could by some fancy moving make it through some how, but likely at the expense of playing through injuries at a full roster and maybe having to pass on some trades (that could be devestatingly difficult for Nonis).

The whole buyout situation was completely and utterly mishandled.

The trade wasn't bad. It was the resulting decision to sign a player who had not recovered properly from a concussion bad.

How can you argue that Liles should have been compliance buyout and not see that trading a high draft pick for a player you want to buyout now is not a mistake also?. At least Komisarek's buyout came as a result of a UFA signing and didn't cost Leafs anything beyond money, unlike Liles.

Liles has no value to this team as a player to help it win, nor in trade to try and recoup the original cost of acquisition, and is going to be a near $4 mil Marlie in the next couple of days with Leafs having to play with a roster less than 23 men because of Liles on the team still and his cap hurting the Leafs.

If Liles would have been bought out this summer it wouldn't have made the trade any better as Leafs could now have a 2nd round level prospect in the system without it if they simply would have used the pick and drafted with it.

 

[veedubn1]

Of course the real source of the problem was the GM that signed Grabovski, Komisarek and Liles to those contracts originally, and not the GM responsible for buying them out compliance or not.

If they didn't exist there would be no problem now debating on how to get rid of them all, and hurt the Leafs team the least in the process.

Accountability lies with the source, but MLSE dealt with that also accordingly, and Liles simply remains yet an unsolved inherited problem of the new GM.

Off topic, much? I thought this thread was about what to do with Liles, not how his contract came to be?

We can make a special thread for you to moan about Leaf management from Ballard to today's current regime if it gives you one place to vent rather than in every thread.

 

[dr dangles]

This.

We don't need to move him now. Injuries will happen which will make us thankful that we have Liles to play instead of guys like Holzer, Brennan, random AHLer.

Rielly hasn't made the team. Even if he breaks camp with the team no guarantees he'll stay past the first 9 games.

Liles will be easier to move at the deadline when many teams can fit him in or next off-season when the cap goes back up and teams have money to spend again. Dealing Liles now makes no sense because our off-season moves have been made, we're under the cap and deals don't start happening again till near the deadline when we'll have cap space accumulated to fit in a player if need be.

 

[darrylsittler27]

We assume a lot..

Nonnis inherited a mess, he has done ok so far and needs to make one last move. When he didn't buy out Liles and choose Komi. with one year left, he must have thought Liles had some value. Burke for whatever reason went haywire with the money on the wrong players, as a result Grabo. had no value in a cap crunch. he got 1 year at $3M as an UFA on the open market. Doesn't sound to me like any other GM's trusted Grabo. Washington said show me and gave him 1 last chance.

Nonnis has done well given what he had to work through. But yes, he may have botched Liles and like Grabo. he may have no value with a long contract.

 

[mix1home]

Who cares what you get for Liles, just get him out of here.

We shipped 2nd rounder for him. I expect no less than that back. Liles is NHL defenseman, not old and on good contract for what he brings.

These are the same fans that constantly complain that Leafs trade draft picks away that then say "we don't care for what return, but ship x player out".

 

[Mess]

Nonis has done well given what he had to work through. But yes, he may have botched Liles and like Grabo. he may have no value with a long contract.

We have to cross our fingers and hope Nonis can unload Liles to the team with the only connection to the person that believed Liles was worth that contract.

There is still hope.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

When Liles signed that deal he opened the season on a 50 point pace. Liles had his concussions issue but the biggest issue for Liles is Carlyle and that Franson developed into a top PP unit Dman.

Liles is definitely tradeable. Horcoff, Gomez, Blake, Giggy, Campbell, Heatley, Jones were also all deemed untradeable according to HF posters.

The only question in dealing Liles is what we'll have to take back in dealing Liles.

 

[Mess]

Phaneuf, Gardiner, Franson, Fraser & Ranger's contracts all expire at end of season.

Leaving only Liles and Gunnarsson under contract on the D, which is not a good thing because one of those players Liles is not wanted nor needed.

His cap space next year desperately needs to be recaptured in order to re-sign all the other Leafs Dmen alone and will be mission critical. Liles needs to go.

 

[mix1home]

I don't know why so many ppl are concerned about Liles and his cap space. All July it was "We have Gunnar, Franson, Kardi and Fraser to sign - no way we can afford them all!" All August and September people had no better thing to do [in the summer no less] than to crunch numbers for Kardi and Franson signings. "O, we have no CAP SPACE!!! to sign them both!" Then Kadri gets signed and it's "Let's trade Kulemin [or Liles] now! Tough decision, but we need to sign Franson!" Then Raymond impresses in camp and complaining gets new tune to it "If not for Franson unsigned and Liles contract we could have afforded him!" Raymond get signed. Franson get signed too.

Lets summarize here, shall we? You, guys, were wrong five times and lost any and all credibility if you even have it in the first place. It's time for you to stop panicking, shut up, return your membership card and listen to what intelligent people have to say and learn from them.

 

[frankthetank91]

I don't know why so many ppl are concerned about Liles and his cap space. All July it was "We have Gunnar, Franson, Kardi and Fraser to sign - no way we can afford them all!" All August and September people had no better thing to do [in the summer no less] than to crunch numbers for Kardi and Franson signings. "O, we have no CAP SPACE!!! to sign them both!" Then Kadri gets signed and it's "Let's trade Kulemin [or Liles] now! Tough decision, but we need to sign Franson!" Then Raymond impresses in camp and complaining gets new tune to it "If not for Franson unsigned and Liles contract we could have afforded him!" Raymond get signed. Franson get signed too.

Lets summarize here, shall we? You, guys, were wrong five times and lost any and all credibility if you even have it in the first place. It's time for you to stop panicking, shut up, return your membership card and listen to what intelligent people have to say and learn from them.

While we can make some other minor moves to get below the cap and keep Liles, it's not ideal. You don't pay someone almost 4 million to be your 7th or 8 d-man. Guys ahead(Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Franson, Ranger, Fraser, Rielly)

He is a good guy and i'd feel bad sending him to the minors but it is a business and you gotta go with your best deserving players, not the ones that make the most money. Still hope we can trade him but when similar players like Gilbert are getting signed for 1 million it's going to be tough.

 

[Ari91]

Well yea, but let's wait to see what actually happens with Liles before we declare the Komi buy-out a mistake. If he gets traded, then it was clearly the right decision. If we keep Liles and he plays as our 7th D-man (something Komi wouldn't have done), then we still win. The only way the Komi buyout is a mistake is IF we buyout Liles as well, which hasn't happened.

I agree and I've said as much. I understand the point they're trying to make but like you, I don't believe one can make a very strong argument based on what may happen in the future. Until then, I'm fine giving Nonis the benefit of the doubt and if Liles ends up playing in the AHL for the year, then I'll more than gladly admit that he messed up his compliance buyout options.

Even if Liles ends up the 7th dman, it would have been better to buy out Komisarek on a regular course buy out and Liles on the compliance buyout.

Year 1 Komisarek 2.17 + 7th dman 1M = 3.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 2 Komisarek 1.17 + 7th dman 1M 2.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 3 7th dman 1M < Liles 3.875

Cap savings all 3 years.

Why stop there? He should have traded Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, JVR, Kadri along with buying out Grabo, Komi and Liles. That way he could have promoted the Marlies team and imagine all of the cap space the team would have then!!!

This isn't just a math class. It's about imagining all sorts of possible scenarios and what option carries the most reward and less risk. Valuing a player's skillset and ability to easily step into a line up and play on any line is the kind of depth that a GM would possibly prefer to have on their blue line. It's also the kind of depth that he may (and the coach) may like in case of injuries (which we should assume are more likely to happen than less likely). Sometimes you need to sacrifice the number to get the value/depth. Especially in a cap crunch, Liles' cap hit isn't great but he's still a capable d man who won't be losing games for the team. If someone on the blue line goes down, I would feel much more comfortable having Liles replace him than have someone like Holzer.

 

[New Liskeard]

Because he's wasting space. We have other guys who are waiver friendly that can be called up and sent down and can be our 8th d man. Why spend almost 4 million on a guy who will never play??

So the Leafs will not experience 1 injury on the d-line all year??? That's awesome, and I don't believe has ever happened before.

 

[frankthetank91]

Because he's wasting space. We have other guys who are waiver friendly that can be called up and sent down and can be our 8th d man. Why spend almost 4 million on a guy who will never play??

So the Leafs will not experience 1 injury on the d-line all year??? That's awesome, and I don't believe has ever happened before.

Of course they will, but there are still plenty of cheaper options. Ready to fill in: Brennan, Holzer, Blacker, Percy, MacWilliam are just some of the names that would be able to fill in for injury. Not to mention the 7 NHL ready d-men we already have.

 

[New Liskeard]

Of course they will, but there are still plenty of cheaper options. Ready to fill in: Brennan, Holzer, Blacker, Percy, MacWilliam are just some of the names that would be able to fill in for injury. Not to mention the 7 NHL ready d-men we already have.

When have the above mentioned defencemen shown to be better NHLers than Liles? Last I checked the Leafs have 6 NHL d unless you are including Reilly. Depth on d is important, and having Liles as your number 7 is not a bad thing. And JM is better than all the d you listed.