If Dominik Hasek's career would have been 10 years earlier in Buffalo

[tarheelhockey]

I mean, he hadn't really played 50 games yet even at that point...so he adjusted to the speed of the game (as opposed to having a hot start and getting found and being unable to adjust like lesser players/no hockey sense players/etc.) and he played on some more conservative teams under Muckler and Nolan in increasingly conservative times...I'm not sure there's going to be a lot more to it than that...but I'm open to listening...

3 years is a long time to adjust to speed. And a sustainable +.030 jump in save% at age 29 seems almost unprecedented to me... we don't see other goalies do that when they go to a conservative team.

Really, the only other goalie I can think of with a similar story is Tim Thomas, who you insist is a fraud.

 

[Michael Farkas]

3 years assumes that he played games. He didn't. The magic age for a lot of goalies is 26. So Hasek getting off to a late start because of circumstances beyond his control is odd but not overly concerning given his style. Like Martin Brodeur, required adjustment to the timing. Hasek is one of those players who would have done worse in the minors because of how he expects a certain speed/play/shot that inferior players don't consistently deliver...

Hasek adjusted awfully quick given the GP...so maybe there's something else at play than even I'm giving credit for...

Not comparable to Thomas obviously...really in any way...odd name to drudge up in this context, but not the first time I've seen it...hopefully it's the last, as there is really no comparison...unless this is one of those "littering is a crime and murder is a crime, and all crimes are bad" type of B=A things...but that would be a cloudy-eyed take at best...

 

[tarheelhockey]

3 years assumes that he played games. He didn't.

He played a normal backup's loads of games, plus the fact that he was training with NHL players for 36 months. That's a LONG time, given his total physical and mental maturity, to suddenly figure out that the game was moving faster. I don't buy it.

Not comparable to Thomas obviously...really in any way...odd name to drudge up in this context, but not the first time I've seen it...hopefully it's the last, as there is really no comparison...unless this is one of those "littering is a crime and murder is a crime, and all crimes are bad" type of B=A things...but that would be a cloudy-eyed take at best...

53 GP - .896
225 GP - .930

108 GP - .909
270 GP - .926


Yes, they are comparable. For obvious reasons, not an odd comparison to make.

Is there any other goalie with a career pattern like this one, going from backup to Vezina level without any interim period of gradual improvement?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I really don't want to get into a semantic argument here...but this is being led in a direction that I don't think is productive...I don't think any of the first paragraph is true...he had like 3 or 4 decisions in his first year didn't he? The next year was like 15...that's not really the normal deal in that era...a combined three goalies played more than 67 games in 1992 and 1993.

I think he spent at least some time in Indianapolis (IHL? I think...) in that time. So that 36-month charge is odd to me, even assuming offseason training was remotely close to what it is today. That's what I don't get is that there's a semi-vague case to be made here, but the more artificial augmentation it gets, the more air it loses...it distracts from your actual points...

Bower had one full season (in near proximity) before winning a Vezina...
Jim Carey from backup to Vezina winner the next season...

Hasek took over the league for an extended period time starting at the age of 28...a period of time that contained Roy, Brodeur and Belfour among others...

Thomas waddled into the league at 32 or 33 and posted two non-consecutive seasons behind a great team defense and was not NHL caliber on either side of his time with Chara/Julien. He washed out of the league just as quickly as he entered it.

I just don't see how they are at all related...age, experience, style, sustainability, team situations, adaptability, level of competition among peers...none of it is really close...

 

[quoipourquoi]

He played a normal backup's loads of games

Not necessarily. Like Thomas' 2005-06 season, Hasek's GP in 1992-93 primarily came as a starting goaltender - albeit in a condensed period of time (Hasek getting injured; Thomas not taking over until January). To keep the comparison going, both landed exactly 7th in save percentage in their abbreviated seasons. So I think both gave an indication prior to their breakout of something more, though the level to which each ascended was quite a bit higher than 7th obviously.

Mike Farkas' assertion that Thomas was not NHL caliber prior to Julien is false, but I think the rest of us already knew that. Now... could Thomas succeed prior to 2005-06? Could Hasek succeed prior to 1992-93? Probably on some level far beneath what came later. Ed Belfour in 1988-89 comes to mind, though I'd like to think they'd have better luck.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thomas tried out for multiple teams and could not hack it. Ergo, not NHL caliber.

Coughed up 3 goals per game when he finally got into the league (which is pretty weak)...then magically, Julien/Chara drag him to relevance (well, when they could...they couldn't hide him in a couple playoff series along the way when teams could key in on his weaknesses, plus the 2010 season where a rookie walked in and led the league in everything)...then he left those cushy confines and no one could hit him with a puck for the rest of his career...

I mean, this is an absolute lay-up...it's a shame posts are time-stamped here, so no one was tied to being sucked into that guy's short-lived hype, because otherwise we could just wash our hands of him like Cechmanek or Carey...this is one instance where logging of opinions backfires...people feel compelled to compound their problems to save face...

 

[Theokritos]

Could Hasek succeed prior to 1992-93? Probably on some level far beneath what came later.

If you are right, then the question still remains: what changed in 1993 that turned Hašek from a goaltender far beneath the best in the NHL into a goaltender who would win 6 Vezinas in 8 years?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Jacques Plante

Actually Jacques Plante has a very similar career path. Not a recognized NHL #1 until his 4th season - 1955-56, age 27. Followed by 5 consecutive Vezinas, 6 in 7 seasons and a Hart. The a long career, moving from team to team.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/p/plantja01.html

Plante was asthmatic and need corrective surgery on an arm that was not set properly after he broke it as a youngster.

Both had to be managed as the seasons rolled by. Both were innovative, different and cerebral in their own fashion.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pads

If you are right, then the question still remains: what changed in 1993 that turned Hašek from a goaltender far beneath the best in the NHL into a goaltender who would win 6 Vezinas in 8 years?

Hasek is listed at 6'1", 166lbs, Plante at 6', 175 lbs. Hasek seems to have been weighed late in his career.

Old goalie equipment weighed app twice as much as the new and absorbed water during the game. Hasek played a game based on movement and flexibility. Carrying extra weight, roughly 20 lbs, for 2 1/2 hours, on a wiry frame takes its toll.

Light goalies in the old days - Roger Crozier, Charlie Hodge used to tire with the heavy equipment as the season progressed.

 

[yzerman]

If you are right, then the question still remains: what changed in 1993 that turned Hašek from a goaltender far beneath the best in the NHL into a goaltender who would win 6 Vezinas in 8 years?

I Think the opportunity in Buffalo gave him Confident to be Nr 1 and the rest is history ,in Chicago Belfour was clearly Nr 1 and Hasek blossomed out in Buffalo when the opportunity come to him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Actually Jacques Plante has a very similar career path. Not a recognized NHL #1 until his 4th season - 1955-56, age 27. Followed by 5 consecutive Vezinas, 6 in 7 seasons and a Hart. The a long career, moving from team to team.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/p/plantja01.html

Plante was asthmatic and need corrective surgery on an arm that was not set properly after he broke it as a youngster.

Both had to be managed as the seasons rolled by. Both were innovative, different and cerebral in their own fashion.

I think it was much more common for players to get late starts in the NHL in the Original 6 era, especially players who were prospects for the good teams, especially goalies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I Think the opportunity in Buffalo gave him Confident to be Nr 1 and the rest is history ,in Chicago Belfour was clearly Nr 1 and Hasek blossomed out in Buffalo when the opportunity come to him.

The problem is that in Chicago Hasek couldn't even beat out Jimmy Waite when Belfour was holding out.

Sure, it was a small sample of games... but this is Dominick Hasek we are talking about.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Concept of what I call a "rhythm" player should be considered. Some players, and I've coached some myself, don't get into the flow of a game if their schedule is herky jerky...whether that's shifts for a d-man or forward or whether it's a string of games for a goaltender, some players benefit from more minutes and some benefit from less...

Examples: Keith Yandle. Acquired at the trade deadline by the Rangers in 2015 (?) - played a lot on the third pairing, skipped shifts, etc. Really could have been a key cog for the defending East Champs because he could carry the puck, unlike their other d-men and centers (slow or untalented, as the case may be). But never really found his way because he didn't get a good feel for the game, his momentum was broken, his rhythm was disrupted whatever you want to call it.

Sometimes you'll hear this (not in the media, usually) from players who have coaches that are fanatical line matchers. Players always looking to the bench, always getting swapped in and out...late, sloppy changes. Some shifts just 12, 18, 22 seconds...I've been distancing myself from line matching as a coach when I can because I think it's distracting to the players sometimes...

Cross-sport example: Peyton Manning. Routinely went on long regular season winning streaks. Most dominant QB in the merger era at the least in that regard. Indianapolis often had the division/home field locked up before the final game of the season...so Manning sits most of week 17, then they get the bye, so he goes three weeks without playing a game in the midst of, likely, a long run of success and then comes out and doesn't perform as well in the first game after his momentum is broken...NFL playoffs don't allow for any time to find a rhythm.

Manning only two playoff games in Indianapolis coming out of the bye week, and they were both in the same year. He won 7 games (not including two OT losses) when not dealing with the bye, including his only Super Bowl in Indy...and had a winning record overall.

Not surprising to think that Hasek is a rhythm player...

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think it was much more common for players to get late starts in the NHL in the Original 6 era, especially players who were prospects for the good teams, especially goalies.

Imagine how much different Glenn Hall and Terry Sawchuk's careers could have played out had the Red Wings handled things differently when they had both.

 

[crobro]

He never would have become the dominator without the 1 on 1 coaching he got from Tretiak in Chicago.

 

[crobro]

Actually Jacques Plante has a very similar career path. Not a recognized NHL #1 until his 4th season - 1955-56, age 27. Followed by 5 consecutive Vezinas, 6 in 7 seasons and a Hart. The a long career, moving from team to team.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/p/plantja01.html

Plante was asthmatic and need corrective surgery on an arm that was not set properly after he broke it as a youngster.

Both had to be managed as the seasons rolled by. Both were innovative, different and cerebral in their own fashion.

Some say his finest seasons were with Toronto and Boston in his 40's

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perhaps

Concept of what I call a "rhythm" player should be considered. Some players, and I've coached some myself, don't get into the flow of a game if their schedule is herky jerky...whether that's shifts for a d-man or forward or whether it's a string of games for a goaltender, some players benefit from more minutes and some benefit from less...

Examples: Keith Yandle. Acquired at the trade deadline by the Rangers in 2015 (?) - played a lot on the third pairing, skipped shifts, etc. Really could have been a key cog for the defending East Champs because he could carry the puck, unlike their other d-men and centers (slow or untalented, as the case may be). But never really found his way because he didn't get a good feel for the game, his momentum was broken, his rhythm was disrupted whatever you want to call it.

Sometimes you'll hear this (not in the media, usually) from players who have coaches that are fanatical line matchers. Players always looking to the bench, always getting swapped in and out...late, sloppy changes. Some shifts just 12, 18, 22 seconds...I've been distancing myself from line matching as a coach when I can because I think it's distracting to the players sometimes...

Cross-sport example: Peyton Manning. Routinely went on long regular season winning streaks. Most dominant QB in the merger era at the least in that regard. Indianapolis often had the division/home field locked up before the final game of the season...so Manning sits most of week 17, then they get the bye, so he goes three weeks without playing a game in the midst of, likely, a long run of success and then comes out and doesn't perform as well in the first game after his momentum is broken...NFL playoffs don't allow for any time to find a rhythm.

Manning only two playoff games in Indianapolis coming out of the bye week, and they were both in the same year. He won 7 games (not including two OT losses) when not dealing with the bye, including his only Super Bowl in Indy...and had a winning record overall.

Not surprising to think that Hasek is a rhythm player...

Understand your point and analogies completely. Issues with Domink Hasek are:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hasekdo01.html

We do not know the extent and the nuances of the scheduling in the Czech league and the Czech participation internationally. How many total games would Hasek play in a typical season, whether he played 3 games in 4 days regularly.

We do know that in a less competitive league he produced weaker GAA and other stats than in his older NHL career.

This is also true for Johnny Bower:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bowerjo01.html

An older Johnny Bower did better in the NHL than a younger Johnny Bower did in the AHL. However the two league seasons and playoffs were very comparable in length, scheduling and travel.

So what exactly was Hasek's "rhythm"?

Was Hasek an intuitive goalie or was he a close to the vest "book" goalie who logged the habits of his opponents? Hasek was exceptional at playing the handedness of attacking forwards, vertical and diagonal angles, and had an extraordinary sense of his body space covering the net, making the necessary adjustments situationally. How long did it take for him to acquire this knowledge while adjusting to the NHL sized rink and the smaller Chicago and Buffalo rinks?

Finally the pad weight issue, old vs new. Dressed for summer walking a couple of miles compared to winter with a heavy coat and boots that weigh an extra 10 lbs is very different in terms of effort and fatigue.

This has to be addressed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes

Some say his finest seasons were with Toronto and Boston in his 40's

Yes when he rarely played 3 games in 4 days or 4 in 5 like he did with the Canadiens and Rangers.

Plante's post 1967 expansion career, he never exceeded 40 RS games.

 

[Jablkon]

He never would have become the dominator without the 1 on 1 coaching he got from Tretiak in Chicago.

?? I never heard about it. Buffalo golie coach realized that it would be bad to change his style, instead of it they focused to improve it and they gave him a chance. Considering that most people overseas laughed at him when they saw him play, I doubt he would get legit chance in 80s. But it is certainly not a coincidence that he was in Canada Cup in 84 if I am right...? Czechoslovaks didnt have issues with goalies so he simply must have outperformed the rest.

True is that comming to USA as 19 years old from communist country....I am not sure how would he adapt to different life and if got a chance in the net. I mean, if he didnt meet that golie coach in Buffalo, he might have been back in Europe.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Understand your point and analogies completely. Issues with Domink Hasek are:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hasekdo01.html

We do not know the extent and the nuances of the scheduling in the Czech league and the Czech participation internationally. How many total games would Hasek play in a typical season, whether he played 3 games in 4 days regularly.

We do know that in a less competitive league he produced weaker GAA and other stats than in his older NHL career.

This is also true for Johnny Bower:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bowerjo01.html

An older Johnny Bower did better in the NHL than a younger Johnny Bower did in the AHL. However the two league seasons and playoffs were very comparable in length, scheduling and travel.

So what exactly was Hasek's "rhythm"?

Was Hasek an intuitive goalie or was he a close to the vest "book" goalie who logged the habits of his opponents? Hasek was exceptional at playing the handedness of attacking forwards, vertical and diagonal angles, and had an extraordinary sense of his body space covering the net, making the necessary adjustments situationally. How long did it take for him to acquire this knowledge while adjusting to the NHL sized rink and the smaller Chicago and Buffalo rinks?

Finally the pad weight issue, old vs new. Dressed for summer walking a couple of miles compared to winter with a heavy coat and boots that weigh an extra 10 lbs is very different in terms of effort and fatigue.

This has to be addressed.

I was strongly hoping that my "rhythm" player post would attract your attention, sure enough.

All good points, as usual. I don't know the answer to your questions specifically. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd think that Hasek kept minimal notes on shooters and instead focused on his own preparedness...with the thought that his best is better than their best...

 

[Theokritos]

He had mixed reviews in the 1987 Canada Cup, 1988 Olympics and 1991 Canada Cup.

Interesting, do you have any sources about his performance in the Canada Cup tournaments?

He never would have become the dominator without the 1 on 1 coaching he got from Tretiak in Chicago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tretyak call Hašek "uncoachable" or something to that effect?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Unteachable

Interesting, do you have any sources about his performance in the Canada Cup tournaments?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tretyak call Hašek "uncoachable" or something to that effect?

From memory Tretiak commented that Hasek's style was unteachable and difficult to coach as a result.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Explanation

I was strongly hoping that my "rhythm" player post would attract your attention, sure enough.

All good points, as usual. I don't know the answer to your questions specifically. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd think that Hasek kept minimal notes on shooters and instead focused on his own preparedness...with the thought that his best is better than their best...

Speculative but interesting. Could explain part of the issue if a coach was big on film study, game preparation etc.

 

[Killion]

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd think that Hasek kept minimal notes on shooters and instead focused on his own preparedness...with the thought that his best is better than their best...

Very basic, rudimentary.

1) Meditate - relax, dark room, semi wakefulness...
2) Visualize - opponents, making saves...
3) Positive affirmations - do a complete checklist of every single aspect of your game, remind yourself to "hug posts when play behind net, keep stick flush on ice etc etc etc, all the little things, remind yourself of whatever weakness you may have, to correct it etc... and that yes, "your best is is better than their best". A Hell of a lot better. Arrogance, attitude, absolutely.

I've heard the Urban Legends of Goalies with "Little Black Books" on every player in the League back in the day & who studied them religiously before each game but no, no I'm not buying that. Johnny Bower claimed as much & pretty sure he was having one over with a Reporter. You know who your facing, get to know their propensities, way they operate, once seen cannot be unseen & you file it away. Hasek who played it instinctively, reactively vertically & horizontally preparing as per the above, no different than most goalies.

If your a Starter sitting one out or the Backup who rarely gets a Start and you have to go in cold because the guy out there is collapsing, head not into it, and as you werent expected to be called upon & skipped your pre-game preparation 50/50 chance you too could be un-prepared. And that aint good... though generally not as critical as your going to get into the game as a spectator on the bench watching & that in itself also very effective in making the step from your seat into the crease & into the game. Short warmup to gather yourself, limber up & face some shots.

 

[shazariahl]

Interesting.

Hasek lost badly in three of his four starts in the 1984 Canada Cup.

Then he dominated the World juniors in 1985 with no losses in six games.

He had mixed reviews in the 1987 Canada Cup, 1988 Olympics and 1991 Canada Cup.

Then he went to Chicago of the NHL.

It looks like he got some tinkerbell pixie dust, Cinderella type **** when he turned 29 years old in Buffalo and immediately his wins and save percentage went through the roof! Then for nine years in Buffalo he was otherworldly. I remember THAT Hasek. I also remember the tarnished aging has-been in Detroit who showed occasional but no longer consistent flashes of brilliance.

I'm not sure what to make of his career before the NHL and age 28. He was good enough to represent his country in all those tourneys, but his success there was spotty at best.

True, but you're looking at best on best tournaments at a time when his team wasn't exactly strong compared with the USSR and Canada. Unlike the 70's and early 80's, when they were actually pretty good, I don't remember much from the Czech in the later 80's, though maybe I'm wrong. I remember Hasek playing quite well in 87 against Canada (didn't we tie?). Many were already considering him the best goalie in all of Europe by then, though there may have been weak competition since Tretiak had retired by then.

Also, goalies usually seem to peak later than other players, so while I think his play before 29 was probably much better than his tournament failures would indicate, I also believe you are correct that Buffalo was around the time he was really hitting his best.

In all, I don't think we can hold it against him that he didn't accomplish much internationally at a time when the USSR and Canada were both much stronger than Czechoslovakia.