OT: If Dallas Upsets Colorado, Does Jim Nill Get Some Credit? (mod note post #8)

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Who?
Yzerman?
Nill?

Can't figure out who you're being sarcastic against or why.

Your OP. The whole premise of this ridiculous topic was that Jim Nill didn't deserve any credit for the Stars maybe beating Colorado because he didn't build the team to win a playoff series. It's never been anything but that in this comment chain. Nill would get credit if they won. Nill would get blame if they lost.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,210
12,201
Tampere, Finland
I will be very surprised if the Stars win with the way they are currently playing.

You can't rely on your goaltender this much and expect to win more than you lose.

Just like Finland did win last World Championship with C-level roster. They played the same way. It's nothing new.

It's still one of the real miracles on ice, when look for those Sweden/Russia/Canada NHL rosters, and how well they played, but coun't win. All lost for this KHL/Swiss League/Finnish Liiga roster + ECHL starting goaltender.

There's many ways to get success in hockey.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Just like Finland did win last World Championship with C-level roster. They played the same way. It's nothing new.

There's many ways to get success in hockey.

The point is that leaning on your goalie that much will usually end up poorly. In small sample sizes, it is okay and you can win. But out of 100 times, the team with the Giguere goalie wins about 10 and usually not more than sneaking through one round.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,210
12,201
Tampere, Finland
The point is that leaning on your goalie that much will usually end up poorly. In small sample sizes, it is okay and you can win. But out of 100 times, the team with the Giguere goalie wins about 10 and usually not more than sneaking through one round.

It's not just the goalie. It's the defensive teamwork with the goalie. Vegas/Avs guys pushed out from screening positions. Direct shots, peanuts for a goaltender, when he can see them and there's also no cross-icepasses. Defence eliminates the passing lanes too. Great possession teams can have their possession, but are forced for easy shots, and then they'll lose. Every team is gonna put Stars goalie to shine, because their defence is gelled so well with the goaltending work. And vice versa. Dallas wins those key-battles in offensive end. Jamie Benn is a force again and no one is better at net-front than Pavelski. Multiple guys, real high-danger always there. Not just a dot in the heatmap.

Only team which can beat them is Tampa Bay, because they have almost as good defensive structure, and are real killers offensively. They can make the right plays.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,032
11,728
Just because Dallas is in the finals doesn't make my post wrong.

Yes, Dallas had a chance to win. I never argued otherwise. No that is not a reliable way to succeed. Even if the Stars sweep the Lightning it won't invalidate that argument.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,018
crease
Just because Dallas is in the finals doesn't make my post wrong.

Yes, Dallas had a chance to win. I never argued otherwise. No that is not a reliable way to succeed. Even if the Stars sweep the Lightning it won't invalidate that argument.

Don't worry, I got what you were saying. We've seen all kinds of teams streak into the Cup finals on hot goalies and then the team can't finish. Kipper, Rolston, Giggy, Hasek, Lundqvist... just off the top of my head. There's more I'm sure.

They'll have to minimize chances to hold off Tampa's attack (presumably them), which is going to be significantly better than anything they've faced so far.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Don't worry, I got what you were saying. We've seen all kinds of teams streak into the Cup finals on hot goalies and then the team can't finish. Kipper, Rolston, Giggy, Hasek, Lundqvist... just off the top of my head. There's more I'm sure.

They'll have to minimize chances to hold off Tampa's attack (presumably them), which is going to be significantly better than anything they've faced so far.

Wait, Brian Rolston played goalie? But how did he rip his beautiful clapbombs then? (It was Roloson, Bench, lol)

Marc Andre Fleury for VGK in the Caps cup year. He stood on his head until the Caps blew him up.
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
Your OP. The whole premise of this ridiculous topic was that Jim Nill didn't deserve any credit for the Stars maybe beating Colorado because he didn't build the team to win a playoff series. It's never been anything but that in this comment chain. Nill would get credit if they won. Nill would get blame if they lost.

The shit you choose to get hostile over...

I don't know about you, but I had given up on Nill's regime.
His drafting was largely bad. The franchise was going nowhere and then he goes out and signs to old-and-past-it guys in Perry and Pavelski...and it just reeks of desperation.
I actually cringed at his summer signings.
And here he is, going to the Stanley Cup Finals despite losing his coach midyear over some alcohol issue and replacing him with a guy virtually nobody thought could coach a team far in the playoffs.

This is one of the craziest rides to the finals I can think of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ricelund

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
The shit you choose to get hostile over...

I don't know about you, but I had given up on Nill's regime.
His drafting was largely bad. The franchise was going nowhere and then he goes out and signs to old-and-past-it guys in Perry and Pavelski...and it just reeks of desperation.
I actually cringed at his summer signings.
And here he is, going to the Stanley Cup Finals despite losing his coach midyear over some alcohol issue and replacing him with a guy virtually nobody thought could coach a team far in the playoffs.

This is one of the craziest rides to the finals I can think of.

He brought in a coach who committed to an all-out defense strategy and they all bought in. It's no different than the supremely talent deficient Wings getting around 90 points in the twilight years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Defensive shell hockey is boring as hell but it wins.

I didn't give two thoughts to Nill's regime. The Dallas Stars are a team that means nothing to me. I like Ben Bishop and Alex Radulov, but that's kind of about it. Klingberg and Heiskanen are cool too.

Maybe this should tell you that signing two legitimate pros, even if they're at the end of their careers, isn't necessarily a bad move. That you don't have to have every player on your team be a 25 year old star to succeed. I'd be willing to bet that Pavelski for sure brought some calming influence and steady handness to the team. And Corey Perry was literally a 1.5M fourth line pickup. He was Dallas's attempt at bringing in Brett Hull or Luc Robitaille at the end like Detroit did. He played 13 mins a night and was still a big guy. That teams who sign aged veterans aren't just idiots wasting money but sometimes getting a guy who's been there before and even if he doesn't get on the score sheet, he gets in the ear of a Roope Hintz or Denis Gurianov to help their development.

Lastly, this is a completely fricked up season. That does come into account. But even a regular perfect season requires luck for you to get where you're going. As the GM, you put the pieces in place. If they work out and you have fortune, you get credit. If they don't, you get blame.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Henkka

14ari13

Registered User
Oct 19, 2006
14,122
1,219
Norway
Just because Dallas is in the finals doesn't make my post wrong.

Yes, Dallas had a chance to win. I never argued otherwise. No that is not a reliable way to succeed. Even if the Stars sweep the Lightning it won't invalidate that argument.
You should star a blog then, maybe 1 or 2 will follow you at most.
 

AD1066

Registered User
Sep 30, 2011
7,611
3,886
Ehh you'll never convince me that Dallas was one of the top two teams in the league this year. They're visually unimpressive for stretches, rely too much on timely goals, and beat an injured Colorado and slumping Vegas. Sample size hasn't caught up with them yet, but I'm kind of hoping Tampa trounces them at this point.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,018
crease
Wait, Brian Rolston played goalie? But how did he rip his beautiful clapbombs then? (It was Roloson, Bench, lol)

Rollie the goalie!

Well, now you know I was being quite sincere about it being off the top of my head.
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
He brought in a coach who committed to an all-out defense strategy and they all bought in. It's no different than the supremely talent deficient Wings getting around 90 points in the twilight years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Defensive shell hockey is boring as hell but it wins.

I didn't give two thoughts to Nill's regime. The Dallas Stars are a team that means nothing to me. I like Ben Bishop and Alex Radulov, but that's kind of about it. Klingberg and Heiskanen are cool too.

Maybe this should tell you that signing two legitimate pros, even if they're at the end of their careers, isn't necessarily a bad move. That you don't have to have every player on your team be a 25 year old star to succeed. I'd be willing to bet that Pavelski for sure brought some calming influence and steady handness to the team. And Corey Perry was literally a 1.5M fourth line pickup. He was Dallas's attempt at bringing in Brett Hull or Luc Robitaille at the end like Detroit did. He played 13 mins a night and was still a big guy. That teams who sign aged veterans aren't just idiots wasting money but sometimes getting a guy who's been there before and even if he doesn't get on the score sheet, he gets in the ear of a Roope Hintz or Denis Gurianov to help their development.

Lastly, this is a completely fricked up season. That does come into account. But even a regular perfect season requires luck for you to get where you're going. As the GM, you put the pieces in place. If they work out and you have fortune, you get credit. If they don't, you get blame.

Ah, none of this is a surprise to you.
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
Ehh you'll never convince me that Dallas was one of the top two teams in the league this year. They're visually unimpressive for stretches, rely too much on timely goals, and beat an injured Colorado and slumping Vegas. Sample size hasn't caught up with them yet, but I'm kind of hoping Tampa trounces them at this point.

I wonder if maybe I slept on them a bit.
2019-20 NHL Preseason Odds | Hockey-Reference.com
10th in Stanley Cup odds.
(I would have pegged them for 18-22nd)
They did beat Nashville in the playoffs and take the Blues to 7 games.

Anyway, I thought Nill was behaving like a hack on his last legs over the offseason. Turns out he knew his team a lot better than I did.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,210
12,201
Tampere, Finland
Breaking Down Lindell’s Value In Light Of His Contract

Nice article about Esa Lindell's impact on Stars team.

Really writing about the right things over some bad advanced statistics.

DeKeyser seems quite good also on same comparison (from season 2018-19 data, when he was healthy)

**

What's common for both NY Islanders and Dallas Stars, both went from high-scoring teams to ultra-defensive teams. Like Dallas was highest scoring 5 vs. 5 team in 2013-2017 on Jim Nill's first years.

Last 2 seasons they have given least goals. A total turnaround.

NY Islanders is doing the same. They were high-offensive team before Trotz, bottom5 in GAA, TOP5 goals scored. Then total turnaround and now quite tough team to beat. GAA pushed down.

Tampa is great defensively too, but has most skill of these teams. I think they will win the Cup, but great defence, defensive systems and goaltending is common for them all.
 
Last edited:

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,018
crease
Dallas has been a good team for years. This isn't even a little surprising. When a guy like Klingberg is flying completely under the radar despite providing 16 points in 20 games, you know your blueline is in good shape. Adding Miro to that group was the finishing stroke required.

And as I said before early in this thread, if Benn and Seguin are playing to their potential - they can beat anyone. Benn can simply dominate games, physically, in a fashion similar to Malkin. He can be that good. And when Seguin is rolling, you're hard pressed to find a player with more dynamic playmaking at full speed. They are elite pieces, no doubt.

It's no secret both the aforementioned forward drive me absolutely insane as a fan. When you see their play at full potential, the many games off (sometimes feeling like a full season) in between become unbearable. And it's not dry spells or lack of production, it's been effort in the past. Now that both these guys see the finish line in front of them, I don't think that will be an issue. They can actually taste a chance at greatness here, so I expect both to show up again Tampa (or those plucky Islanders if they sneak another two games).

The real surprise right now is that Bishop hasn't been needed. But with 34-year-old Khudobin playing the best hockey of his entire career, that's been OK.

As a fan of the Stars, it's great to see this team finally get over the hump and win the West. It's been a long road. The last time they really threatened anything was the run they had in 2008 and the subsequent beatdown they got from the Wings that year. A reminder how difficult the process could be for the Wings to get back on top.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,210
12,201
Tampere, Finland
Dallas has been a good team for years. This isn't even a little surprising. When a guy like Klingberg is flying completely under the radar despite providing 16 points in 20 games, you know your blueline is in good shape. Adding Miro to that group was the finishing stroke required.

And as I said before early in this thread, if Benn and Seguin are playing to their potential - they can beat anyone. Benn can simply dominate games, physically, in a fashion similar to Malkin. He can be that good. And when Seguin is rolling, you're hard pressed to find a player with more dynamic playmaking at full speed. They are elite pieces, no doubt.

Interesting thing is that how both Seguin and Benn were paid their career deals, after the high-scoring years, they both bought in for the defensive system to play. Their GoalsFor% have not changed almost at all in last 2 years, but are still beating opponents relatively, just by this new low-scoring way.

Many are thinking them as busts, and they look they are heavily overpaid.

I always thought Jim Nill did this wrong way, to pay for their inflated high-scoring, but currently it seems it doesn't really matter.

I wonder if Toronto can pull this same turnaround. Big money and high-scoring first, then goes ultra-defensive. Players are more committed, because they don't have to think they are underpaid. If they would be underpaid, selling a defensive system is a problem, because there are still some indivudial habits (to hunt a raise in salary) which will kill the defensive system structure.
 

Go Wings

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
6,192
4,162
Chatham, ON
What ia this crap? Jim Nill deserves the credit for the team making it to the stanley cup finals whether they win or not. He built the team, he drafted key players and make big moves. He has done a great job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14ari13

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
What ia this crap? Jim Nill deserves the credit for the team making it to the stanley cup finals whether they win or not. He built the team, he drafted key players and make big moves. He has done a great job.

No, but why are you being so hostile about it?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad