GDT: ice hockey match this evening agaisnt another ice hockey team at 7ish

[tarheelhockey]

Welcome back. You didn't miss anything.

 

[DaveG]

Wait you're in California now?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Now all we need is geehad and DeathFromAbove to return....

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Now all we need is geehad and DeathFromAbove to return....

My balloons just say "Happy Birthday"

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Now all we need is geehad and DeathFromAbove to return....

geehaad won't be back until either (a) they make the playoffs or (b) Eric Staal is gone.....that was his promise.

Whatever happened to HurricaneSVT (or whatever his name was now)...was posting regularly about a year or so ago then just stopped.

Good to see Chuck here occassionally.

 

[FlyingSquirrels]

Northstar4Canes been around lately?

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Now all we need is geehad and DeathFromAbove to return....

One word - acidqueen.

On another note, I need to stop reading the clickbait articles on the main board done by "HF Partners." I don't think I've read one that isn't categorically awful. The most recent one to earn my ire? Apparently Johnson and Tverdovsky for Gleason and Belanger is the worst trade in post-2004 lockout Hurricanes history.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I remember way back, more when I was lurking or just starting out, there was that guy that used to post a lot that had the Geico Caveman as his avatar. I think his last username was "Hugh Jass" or something like that. Or is that someone that's still here but with a different username?

 

[nobuddy]

It's been two years since I last posted.

Good to see the Canes are still playing lousy

forever and always

 

[DaveG]

I remember way back, more when I was lurking or just starting out, there was that guy that used to post a lot that had the Geico Caveman as his avatar. I think his last username was "Hugh Jass" or something like that. Or is that someone that's still here but with a different username?

He was a good dude, but he went off the rails a while back (well before my time as a mod) and got banned as a result.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

One word - acidqueen.

On another note, I need to stop reading the clickbait articles on the main board done by "HF Partners." I don't think I've read one that isn't categorically awful. The most recent one to earn my ire? Apparently Johnson and Tverdovsky for Gleason and Belanger is the worst trade in post-2004 lockout Hurricanes history.

I have to go back and think of all the trades....but the three that stand out to me, are that one, Ladd/Ruutu and Williams for Cole. I'm probably forgetting a few. The latter were trades that really look worse in retrospect, but didn't look horrible at the time.

All 3 trades have the common JR theme of trading for help now (although with Williams, it was a bit different as he struggled to stay healthy). I'm not going to get into the raging debate that has occurred over the years on JJ. My biggest problem with the JJ for Gleason trade, was that I think JR could have done a lot better than he did, but he wanted immediate help on the blue line. At that time JJ was still a very highly rated prospect and a 3rd o/a pick (even with some of the reported baggage about not signing). I realize getting LA to take on Oleg's contract also played into this, but when you get a #3 pick in the draft, you have to get more for it IMO.

 

[DaveG]

I have to go back and think of all the trades....but the three that stand out to me, are that one, Ladd/Ruutu and Williams for Cole. I'm probably forgetting a few. The latter were trades that really look worse in retrospect, but didn't look horrible at the time.

All 3 trades have the common JR theme of trading for help now (although with Williams, it was a bit different as he struggled to stay healthy). I'm not going to get into the raging debate that has occurred over the years on JJ. My biggest problem with the JJ for Gleason trade, was that I think JR could have done a lot better than he did, but he wanted immediate help on the blue line. At that time JJ was still a very highly rated prospect and a 3rd o/a pick (even with some of the reported baggage about not signing). I realize getting LA to take on Oleg's contract also played into this, but when you get a #3 pick in the draft, you have to get more for it IMO.

I literally said the same 2 to GP last night.

Yeah Ladd for Ruutu, as much as I liked Ruutu, just never made ANY kind of sense.

We at least got a serviceable dman who was here long-term in the Johnson-Gleason swap. And it's not like Johnson ever sniffed his potential, he's still the same player he was in college, a guy that has the ability to be a top pair guy but that also for whatever reason constantly makes bad plays and goes completely out of position to make a hit, and is better served as a #3... in a protected role. Ironically enough, the guy we got in the trade for him was EXACTLY the kind of guy that would have been the perfect partner for him. But JMFJ has shown to be all hype... so much for a guy that had multiple Norris potential.

Now that I'm 100% awake, the only other ones I can think of are the ones where JR just simply pointlessly squandered draft picks: Boucher and Alt for Luke ****ing Pither; Stewart, 4th, and 6th for waiver fodder Kevin Westgarth; and 2nd and 6th for Bobby Sanguinetti all stand out above the rest as absolute wastes of potential assets that JR was all too prone to doing because he was so focused on the short-term and lacked any kind of long-term plan for the organization.



The darkhorse there that I think people would be afraid to mention: Sutter, Dumo, #8 pick for Jordan Staal. We basically gave up an essentially NHL-ready dman, one of the best shutdown centers in the game at the time, and a top 10 pick when Jacob Trouba, Teuvo Teravainen, Zemgus Girgensons, Olli Maatta, Mikhail Grigorenko, and some scrub named Filip Forsberg were all still on the board. Thankfully (for us at least) Pittsburgh used that pick on Pouliot who I don't think is anything special, never have, but fact of the matter is it was still a VERY significant overpayment for a guy that seemed likely to sign here as a free agent anyway.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I literally said the same 2 to GP last night.

Yeah Ladd for Ruutu, as much as I liked Ruutu, just never made ANY kind of sense.

We at least got a serviceable dman who was here long-term in the Johnson-Gleason swap. And it's not like Johnson ever sniffed his potential, he's still the same player he was in college, a guy that has the ability to be a top pair guy but that also for whatever reason constantly makes bad plays and goes completely out of position to make a hit, and is better served as a #3... in a protected role. Ironically enough, the guy we got in the trade for him was EXACTLY the kind of guy that would have been the perfect partner for him. But JMFJ has shown to be all hype... so much for a guy that had multiple Norris potential.

Now that I'm 100% awake, the only other ones I can think of are the ones where JR just simply pointlessly squandered draft picks: Boucher and Alt for Luke ****ing Pither; Stewart, 4th, and 6th for waiver fodder Kevin Westgarth; and 2nd and 6th for Bobby Sanguinetti all stand out above the rest as absolute wastes of potential assets that JR was all too prone to doing because he was so focused on the short-term and lacked any kind of long-term plan for the organization.

The more I think on it, the trade that pisses me off the most was Jokinen for a conditional pick. We ended up getting literally NOTHING out of it because the Pens didn't make the Stanley Cup Finals. Jokinen then goes on to have a great rebound year with Pittsburgh. Y'know...I think this is a good poll opportunity...

 

[DaveG]

The more I think on it, the trade that pisses me off the most was Jokinen for a conditional pick. We ended up getting literally NOTHING out of it because the Pens didn't make the Stanley Cup Finals. Jokinen then goes on to have a great rebound year with Pittsburgh. Y'know...I think this is a good poll opportunity...

Don't forget, we also ate 1/3rd of that salary as well... ugh, what a horrible trade.

 

[What the Faulk]

The more I think on it, the trade that pisses me off the most was Jokinen for a conditional pick. We ended up getting literally NOTHING out of it because the Pens didn't make the Stanley Cup Finals. Jokinen then goes on to have a great rebound year with Pittsburgh. Y'know...I think this is a good poll opportunity...

Everyone was talking about playmakers/passers the other day, but they had a good one in Jokinen and ran him out of town. Even in Florida, he's on pace for a career high in assists.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I literally said the same 2 to GP last night.

Yeah Ladd for Ruutu, as much as I liked Ruutu, just never made ANY kind of sense.

We at least got a serviceable dman who was here long-term in the Johnson-Gleason swap. And it's not like Johnson ever sniffed his potential, he's still the same player he was in college, a guy that has the ability to be a top pair guy but that also for whatever reason constantly makes bad plays and goes completely out of position to make a hit, and is better served as a #3... in a protected role.

I understand what you are saying, but the problem I have with that line of thinking is that it wasn't Johnson's value at the time. At the time the Canes traded him, he was still regarded as a top prospect with #1 D potential and that's why I don't like what we got back for him. Again, I realize that part of it was having LA take Oleg's contract as well, but doesn't make the trade any more palatable.

You get a #3/4 pick in the draft, you have to make it really count. Twice the Canes really failed at that with JJ and Ladd. Granted, the Ladd draft was pretty weak after he was chosen.

re: the other trades, yeah, some of those weren't great, particularly the Alt deal, but those don't rise up to the level of these other ones IMO. Still bad/dumb trades, but on a different level.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

We can say we mismanaged Jokinen, but I have a hard time complaining about the actual trade. He passed through waivers shortly before that, so it's not like the Canes could have gotten much, if any, more in a trade. I think Jussi struggles at times with confidence and his play then suffers. He washed out in Tampa also before the Canes acquired him. Even if the Canes didn't trade him, I have a hard time believing he would have turned it around enough and re-signed here anyhow (speculation of course) so it's not likely the Canes would still have him today.

That said, I think the Canes were doing a square peg / round hole with him. IIRC, I think Bleed even said to start that season that Jussi was taking one for the team starting out as the 3C and hopefully it doesn't come back to haunt him (or something like that).

 

[DaveG]

What's worse to me about the Ladd trade is that he WAS showing signs of working out, significant signs. He had a slow start the season we traded him no doubt, but the month leading up to trading him he literally had 10 points (4/6) in 13 games, and that's while being held scoreless in those first 2 games and averaging less then 10 minutes ice time in the first 6.

With the Johnson trade we can at least, with a good bit of legitimacy at that, say that the dude just wasn't going to sign here, better to get what we can and move on then to get Wheeler'd/Schultz'd/Andersen'd (**** YOU RITCH WINTER!)

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What's worse to me about the Ladd trade is that he WAS showing signs of working out, significant signs. He had a slow start the season we traded him no doubt, but the month leading up to trading him he literally had 10 points (4/6) in 13 games, and that's while being held scoreless in those first 2 games and averaging less then 10 minutes ice time in the first 6.

Wasn't the reasoning back then that Ruutu could play C as well as W and they needed another C (or am I mis-remembering).

With the Johnson trade we can at least, with a good bit of legitimacy at that, say that the dude just wasn't going to sign here, better to get what we can and move on then to get Wheeler'd/Schultz'd/Andersen'd (**** YOU RITCH WINTER!)

See, this is where I diverge from the line of thinking. Even if we accept that Johnson wasn't going to sign here, JR could, and should, have done better for a #3 pick and very highly touted prospect. IMO, he didn't have to settle for "get what you can" but instead, wanted to rid himself of Tverdovsky and get someone who could play now..so he settled for less (IMO).

 

[DaveG]

Wasn't the reasoning back then that Ruutu could play C as well as W and they needed another C (or am I mis-remembering).



See, this is where I diverge from the line of thinking. Even if we accept that Johnson wasn't going to sign here, JR could, and should, have done better for a #3 pick and very highly touted prospect. IMO, he didn't have to settle for "get what you can" but instead, wanted to rid himself of Tverdovsky and get someone who could play now..so he settled for less (IMO).

I think that was part of the Ruutu too, yeah. Though Ruutu showed to be pretty ineffective in that role, moving over to wing permanently when we acquired Jokinen for table scraps.

Won't disagree on that part, and I honestly think that's why we ended up with him in LA instead of a more equitable trade for Johnson. Not sure what else was being offered around other then the firm evidence that Pittsburgh was interested. IIRC they were close on Johnson straight up for the #2, but then asked for us to include Ladd (on recommendation of the Caps GM I want to say) and JR rightly said "no chance" on that.

 

[nobuddy]

the thing about jack johnson is that he ****ing sucks.

i literally do not care about him at all and i'm not at all mad he didn't sign here.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

the thing about jack johnson is that he ****ing sucks.

i literally do not care about him at all and i'm not at all mad he didn't sign here.

That's really not relevant to the discussion though. At the time he was traded, he was viewed as a recent #3 OA pick and "stud" defensive prospect. That was his value at the time of the trade and that's what JR was trading at that time. The fact that he never met that potential in the long run doesn't change what his value was at the time of the trade and the trade (IMO) needs to be evaluated in that light.

 

[GoldiFox]

the thing about jack johnson is that he ****ing sucks.

i literally do not care about him at all and i'm not at all mad he didn't sign here.

The bigger issue for me is that Marc Staal was picked 9 picks later. How, throughout the whole vetting and interview process, do they not realize that JJ is going to screw them over? Marc Staal was right there.

I understand that JJ was the superior prospect at that time, but the Canes should have had some inkling that JJ wouldn't sign of they did their due diligence. If they were ever going to play it safe that was the time.

 

[bleedgreen]

I still hate the Johnson trade. It was panic move trying to keep us "on top" with the free agent losses we had. Johnson wasn't ready and told us so, jr thought he could push the kid into an immediate nhl dman (which wouldve failed), panicked and got hosed. I liked Gleason. I liked that we got a legit nhl dman back but the circumstances and the choice made was crap.

Ladd for ruutu and Williams for cole were the two most annoying trades to me. I didn't understand either one. Moreso the Ladd one of course. I just like watching the kids we draft grow up playing for us. We see it right now, don't we? It's easier to root for a losing team with Rask, Lindy, Jordan etc... Even if they lose. They're hungry and skate hard. They're our prospects working their way up. I think the d with Jordan and Riss looks just as good (bad?) as it did with vets. That's the reason I was pissed we traded JJ and Ladd. We wouldn't have been any worse with them and we would've enjoyed watching them more than what was brought in.

Jokinen situation was bad. He was struggling mightily. I was fine with moving him and he had zero value. The deal sucked but it was a crap spot to be in.

Jstaal is tough. There's no way to know he would've made it here as a ufa. They wouldve traded him to someone and he might've chosen to stay where he went.

 

[Stickpucker]

Didnt we trade a still productive Stillman for uh oh Corvo?