Value of: Ian Cole with/without retention

[Mick Jagr]

Here's a guy that Mike Sullivan chased out of a Pittsburgh. This guy was more important to our cup teams than anybody is willing to admit. Our defense has never quite been the same.

 

[McJedi]

One could simply replace Cole with another similar 6/7Dman who is considerably cheaper, in order to find enough capspace to fit a Bonino type in as well.

As an example, consider if Cole could be converted into Bonino and Coburn in trades along the lines of the ones below (which may or may not need extra picks, that's not the point here though).

View attachment 382163



View attachment 382161





Avs won't have much unused capspace to bank. There's currently $1.8m in capspace with a 20 man roster, and adding 2 guys at $850k contracts takes care of $1.7m of that, leaving only $100k towards cap accrual. Granted, there will also likely be bankable capspace from players going on IR during the season, but either way most of that banked cap will need to go towards covering signing bonuses for Makar/Byram/Kaut which will likely be a significant chunk of the $5.45m maximum bonuses.

That being the case, if upgrades are to be made to the main roster it likely needs to come from sacrificing someone with a high caphit relative to his role on the team, making Cole the obvious odd man out.

I do get the point that contenders don't typically trade veteran Dman, which is certainly a valid one. However, in the interest of optimising capspace replacing Cole with someone like Coburn could be a shrewd move if it allows the roster to be upgraded elsewhere as well (eg. a better 3C).


$4.25m is a lot of capspace sitting in the press box every other night.

One of your best posts Richard. Well done.

 

[McJedi]

Why would Hall be available for a “minimal” cost?

Also, if Sakic was dead set on Hall and was willing to move Cole to make that happen he would have dumped Cole in the offseason and signed Hall for 8M instead of trading for Saad at 5M.

Ian Cole is way more important to the Avs than people let on. Sakic isn’t dumping him.

No he isn’t. Cole was, by far, the worst Avs player in the bubble. His play made a struggling Graves look like Klingberg in comparison. I’d give Cole away and be thrilled for the cap space.

Cole was an important player when we sucked or when we were an 8th seed. But when the Avs hit contender status, he’s a replaceable afterthought. Even more so with Toews here as a huge upgrade to Z’s spot.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

No he isn’t. Cole was, by far, the worst Avs player in the bubble. His play made a struggling Graves look like Klingberg in comparison. I’d give Cole away and be thrilled for the cap space.

Cole was an important player when we sucked or when we were an 8th seed. But when the Avs hit contender status, he’s a replaceable afterthought. Even more so with Toews here as a huge upgrade to Z’s spot.

You sound spoiled in saying this.

I agree that Ian Cole is the weakest link of their back end. But that’s because of how deep and talented their back end is. Cole is solid bottom pairing defenseman on almost every team in the NHL. As Avs fans we always want upgrades. Cole was the worst so we automatically think he needs to be replaced when in reality Ian Cole at his worst is still solid relative to the league.

 

[BlueOil]

sakic will keep cole, he already addressed the weaknesses by acquiring toews and moving zadorov. avs fans certainly harped on the injuries as their downfall, so why trade away available depth?

 

[Richard88]

You sound spoiled in saying this.

I agree that Ian Cole is the weakest link of their back end. But that’s because of how deep and talented their back end is. Cole is solid bottom pairing defenseman on almost every team in the NHL. As Avs fans we always want upgrades. Cole was the worst so we automatically think he needs to be replaced when in reality Ian Cole at his worst is still solid relative to the league.

I agree with the sentiment that Cole shouldn't just be replaced for the sake of it simply due to being the weak link on the back end.

However, if you can swap Cole for a similar-level Dman (eg. Coburn) at less than half the caphit, and bank the rest of the capspace to upgrade elsewhere, then it's something to be considered. The key here is that his replacement would need to be at a similar level; if he's significantly worse then it's not worth the change.

As you explained earlier though there should be plenty of capspace to keep Cole and still have enough for deadline additions, thanks to being able to run a 20 or 21 player roster instead of a 23 man roster, so it's effectively a moot point (unless of course Cole himself wants out in order to play a more prominent role in a contract year).

 

[Tralfamadore]

Cole was actually really good for the Avs for the first half of last season. Some fans have a short memory. I'm not willing to move him just yet he brings valuable experience to the roster and he's a legitimate bottom pairing NHL defenceman.

Some people are just super horny to play the shiny new toys but the people in charge will proceed with caution as they should.

 

[McJedi]

You sound spoiled in saying this.

I agree that Ian Cole is the weakest link of their back end. But that’s because of how deep and talented their back end is. Cole is solid bottom pairing defenseman on almost every team in the NHL. As Avs fans we always want upgrades. Cole was the worst so we automatically think he needs to be replaced when in reality Ian Cole at his worst is still solid relative to the league.

So then he holds value elsewhere and you capitalize upon that. You seize it. Good asset management is snatching that value while simultaneously letting Byram and Timmins, two now superior players, develop with Cole’s ice time.

and if you care about Cole more than I do, then Cole can get more ice time in his contract year elsewhere.

 

[McJedi]

Cole was actually really good for the Avs for the first half of last season. Some fans have a short memory. I'm not willing to move him just yet he brings valuable experience to the roster and he's a legitimate bottom pairing NHL defenceman.

Some people are just super horny to play the shiny new toys but the people in charge will proceed with caution as they should.

But by the bubble, Cole was hemorrhaging possession, terrible in transition and leaving his man alone in the crease. His play is a primary reason the Avs departed the bubble two rounds too early. There is no benefit to Vet experience when that Vet isn’t playing like someone who’s been there before. His play looked every bit as shook as Graves. so now that we have Toews, Byram and Timmins, why keep his 4.25mm. There are cheaper options for depth that can play as poorly as he did in the bubble. And hopefully play better.

 

[Tralfamadore]

But by the bubble, Cole was hemorrhaging possession, terrible in transition and leaving his man alone in the crease. His play is a primary reason the Avs departed the bubble two rounds too early. There is no benefit to Vet experience when that Vet isn’t playing like someone who’s been there before. His play looked every bit as shook as Graves. so now that we have Toews, Byram and Timmins, why keep his 4.25mm. There are cheaper options for depth that can play as poorly as he did in the bubble. And hopefully play better.

I'd say we have much bigger problems if Ian Cole is a primary reason why we got bounced in the playoffs.

 

[McJedi]

I'd say we have much bigger problems if Ian Cole is a primary reason why we got bounced in the playoffs.

Once we had injuries, his play was exposed. So after injures, he was the obvious weak link. For a guy making $4.25mm AAV, that is both unacceptable and replaceable.

but this is all a moot discussion. Cole doesn’t have value. We can’t trade this guy without adding a sweetener.

 

[Avelanche]

Cole was superb last season, he's easily worth the money at 4.25. If no one will take him keep him until Byram forces your hand.

Yeah he was but people here need someone to shit on even on a stacked team and that person was cole.

 

[Avelanche]

I agree with the sentiment that Cole shouldn't just be replaced for the sake of it simply due to being the weak link on the back end.

However, if you can swap Cole for a similar-level Dman (eg. Coburn) at less than half the caphit, and bank the rest of the capspace to upgrade elsewhere, then it's something to be considered. The key here is that his replacement would need to be at a similar level; if he's significantly worse then it's not worth the change.

As you explained earlier though there should be plenty of capspace to keep Cole and still have enough for deadline additions, thanks to being able to run a 20 or 21 player roster instead of a 23 man roster, so it's effectively a moot point (unless of course Cole himself wants out in order to play a more prominent role in a contract year).

You are really over looking that Cole wasnt just some bottom pair player playing 15 protected minutes a night. The avs don’t have a top pairing so play all three pairs pretty equally 5 on 5 and used the cole pairing to let makar double shift in offensive situations.

 

[AvsGuy]

Maybe I'm crazy but I'd feel better with Ian Cole as my #7 option on D than with Braydon Coburn

Not sure why we'd need to acquire a Nick Bonino at all

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Maybe I'm crazy but I'd feel better with Ian Cole as my #7 option on D than with Braydon Coburn

Not sure why we'd need to acquire a Nick Bonino at all

I agree. Cole is younger, and more defensively sound, at least when healthy. He also scored 26 points in 65 games last season with only 15:17 minutes of ES time per game. Obviously, some of that is a function of being on the Avs, but Coburn played for Tampa and had 15 or fewer points in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

As for Bonino, I think some Avs fans aren't sold on Compher at 3C. I'm with you and don't really see the point.

 

[Richard88]

I agree. Cole is younger, and more defensively sound, at least when healthy. He also scored 26 points in 65 games last season with only 15:17 minutes of ES time per game. Obviously, some of that is a function of being on the Avs, but Coburn played for Tampa and had 15 or fewer points in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

As for Bonino, I think some Avs fans aren't sold on Compher at 3C. I'm with you and don't really see the point.

I'm in accord with you regarding Cole. I disagree about Compher though.

Did you watch how our 3rd line did in the playoffs last year? Bednar repeatedly called out a group of forwards who were bringing nothing to the table. In the Dallas series especially the lack of a good 3rd line was particularly glaring, made much worse by the fact that Dallas had really strong C depth with Pavelski, Seguin, Faksa, and Dickinson.

Adding Saad will have helped no doubt, as it bumps other guys (i.e. Donskoi) down the lineup, but we still have the same square-pet-in-a-round-hole issue with Compher filling a role that he isn't ideally suited to, and that was one of the principal issues with that 3rd line in the playoffs regardless of who was playing forward with Compher at C. The same issues were prevalent whether it was Namestnikov, Donskoi, Nichuskin, Calvert, or Jost on the wing with Compher at C.

Compher is a fine RW'er and has put up about 0.5ppg since the 2018 playoffs, and I'd be happy to have him at 3RW again. However, he has shortcomings as a center and isn't all that good on the PK, and these issues were on full display against Dallas. Let's not make the same mistake again by ignoring a very fixable issue.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I'm in accord with you regarding Cole. I disagree about Compher though.

Did you watch how our 3rd line did in the playoffs last year? Bednar repeatedly called out a group of forwards who were bringing nothing to the table. In the Dallas series especially the lack of a good 3rd line was particularly glaring, made much worse by the fact that Dallas had really strong C depth with Pavelski, Seguin, Faksa, and Dickinson.

Adding Saad will have helped no doubt, as it bumps other guys (i.e. Donskoi) down the lineup, but we still have the same square-pet-in-a-round-hole issue with Compher filling a role that he isn't ideally suited to, and that was one of the principal issues with that 3rd line in the playoffs regardless of who was playing forward with Compher at C. The same issues were prevalent whether it was Namestnikov, Donskoi, Nichuskin, Calvert, or Jost on the wing with Compher at C.

Compher is a fine RW'er and has put up about 0.5ppg since the 2018 playoffs, and I'd be happy to have him at 3RW again. However, he has shortcomings as a center and isn't all that good on the PK, and these issues were on full display against Dallas. Let's not make the same mistake again by ignoring a very fixable issue.

I wasn't trying to suggest that Compher is a great fit at 3C, and fully agree that he'd be a better fit at 3RW. But, that doesn't mean that he definitely needs to be replaced at 3C in order for the team to be successful this season.

I also think that adding another forward, without moving out a current roster forward, creates potential problems. Let's say we trade Cole for Bonino, as was suggested here. We slide Compher over to 3RW, Donskoi to the 4th line, and then what? Do we push Jost to the taxi squad and make him the first injury callup? What are the long term ramifications of that when it comes to Jost's development? Or on Bowers/Kaut, who now get fewer opportunities for NHL ice time with yet another forward ahead of them on the depth chart? I think we need to continue to have an eye towards the future, and would much rather give the youngsters those chances, since they'll be the guys we use to reload when we can't afford guys like Saad, Burakovsky, etc.

I also don't like the idea of giving up Cole, even though I'm hoping that he eats nachos in the press box most games. Ideally, he'll end up as our 7D, but when EJ inevitably get injured, he's a decent replacement on the PK and in more defensive roles. I'm less confident that Timmins/Byram will be able to replace EJ's defensive play.

 

[sandybridge]

I agree. Cole is younger, and more defensively sound, at least when healthy. He also scored 26 points in 65 games last season with only 15:17 minutes of ES time per game. Obviously, some of that is a function of being on the Avs, but Coburn played for Tampa and had 15 or fewer points in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

As for Bonino, I think some Avs fans aren't sold on Compher at 3C. I'm with you and don't really see the point.

Cole is younger, and has a bit more offensive skill in his game.

It would be very difficult to argue that he is more defensively sound though than Coburn. Cole is decidedly mediocre on the defensive side.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Cole is younger, and has a bit more offensive skill in his game.

It would be very difficult to argue that he is more defensively sound though than Coburn. Cole is decidedly mediocre on the defensive side.

Cole blocks more shots, hits more, PKs more, and has more takeaways over the last 2 seasons. What's the argument for Coburn being better defensively?

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

But by the bubble, Cole was hemorrhaging possession, terrible in transition and leaving his man alone in the crease. His play is a primary reason the Avs departed the bubble two rounds too early. There is no benefit to Vet experience when that Vet isn’t playing like someone who’s been there before. His play looked every bit as shook as Graves. so now that we have Toews, Byram and Timmins, why keep his 4.25mm. There are cheaper options for depth that can play as poorly as he did in the bubble. And hopefully play better.

Toews in but Zadorov out.

Relying on the 3 of EJ Timmins and Byram to fill 2 roster spots is asking for a disaster.

 

[Richard88]

This thread aged quickly...

 

[grN1g]

To answer the question... Pateryn.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Once we had injuries, his play was exposed. So after injures, he was the obvious weak link. For a guy making $4.25mm AAV, that is both unacceptable and replaceable.

but this is all a moot discussion. Cole doesn’t have value. We can’t trade this guy without adding a sweetener.

Where was the sweetener in the Cole trade? Looks like Colorado managed to get more cap space back? Odd...

 

[McJedi]

Where was the sweetener in the Cole trade? Looks like Colorado managed to get more cap space back? Odd...

They traded one press box D for another. Saved about 1.2mm in cap space. Balanced out our LHD vs RHD allocation too.

Cole was playing very poorly since he entered the bubble and would have been a scratch as a soon as EJ and Byram are ready. Expensive $4.25mm to have eating nachos in his contract year.

will be easier to scratch a guy making $2.25mm AAV in the last year of his deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Where was the sweetener in the Cole trade? Looks like Colorado managed to get more cap space back? Odd...

Eh they traded one cap dump for another cap dump. I think the point the other poster was making is that they can't trade Cole without taking money back without adding a sweetener.