Value of: Ian Cole with/without retention

[Richard88]

If Byram was given a shot, isn't he LD? So who would be the guy (from Toews, Girard, Graves) they try shifting over from left to right to make space (and push Cole down/out) ?

Girard and Toews have both played on the right at times. Graves probably less so, but he did a decent job with Makar so perhaps he'd make a good partner for Byram, albeit on his off side. Also, don't forget that Timmins could also make the team.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Aves don't have the depth on D for a cup run without Cole.

EJ getting injured is a certainty. Timmins as well.

Tyson Jost is a high end #3C so that hole has been filled through internal development. Sakic always has a plan to fill any holes.

 

[stl76]

Just keep him, makes no sense to trade Cole in the final year of his contract.

Even if Byram forces his way onto the roster (far from a given even win an impressive WJC), injuries happen. Cole is good NHL depth if nothing else.


Edit:

Aves don't have the depth on D for a cup run without Cole.

EJ getting injured is a certainty. Timmins as well.

Hope you’re wrong about Timmins, but this guy gets it.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

The Avs don’t need any more cap space but they do have a need for Cole. Solid 5/6 veteran defenseman who they’ll have the luxury of putting in and out of the lineup as they need. He’ll be fresh for the playoffs too.

Bednar said they will rest players this year so they can give their depth an opportunity to play games. They’ll use everyone. No need to move him unless they eventually need that cap space for some other hypothetical upgrade.

 

[PAZ]

The Avs don’t need any more cap space but they do have a need for Cole. Solid 5/6 veteran defenseman who they’ll have the luxury of putting in and out of the lineup as they need. He’ll be fresh for the playoffs too.

Bednar said they will rest players this year so they can give their depth an opportunity to play games. They’ll use everyone. No need to move him unless they eventually need that cap space for some other hypothetical upgrade.

I think it depends if Sakic wants to load up on the TDL. I still believe the Avs are Hall's #1 destination and since I don't see Buffalo making the playoffs in their division, there's a good chance Hall will be available for us at the TDL for a minimal cost. If Sakic wants to get both Hall and a #3C at the TDL, moving Cole's salary is important.

Cole is still a fine a bottom pairing defenseman, but we already have Timmins and Byram who would be a better fit and need that ice time, along with Gilbert as a #7.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I think it depends if Sakic wants to load up on the TDL. I still believe the Avs are Hall's #1 destination and since I don't see Buffalo making the playoffs in their division, there's a good chance Hall will be available for us at the TDL for a minimal cost. If Sakic wants to get both Hall and a #3C at the TDL, moving Cole's salary is important.

Cole is still a fine a bottom pairing defenseman, but we already have Timmins and Byram who would be a better fit and need that ice time, along with Gilbert as a #7.

Why would Hall be available for a “minimal” cost?

Also, if Sakic was dead set on Hall and was willing to move Cole to make that happen he would have dumped Cole in the offseason and signed Hall for 8M instead of trading for Saad at 5M.

Ian Cole is way more important to the Avs than people let on. Sakic isn’t dumping him.

 

[PAZ]

Why would Hall be available for a “minimal” cost?

Also, if Sakic was dead set on Hall and was willing to move Cole to make that happen he would have dumped Cole in the offseason and signed Hall for 8M instead of trading for Saad at 5M.

Ian Cole is way more important to the Avs than people let on. Sakic isn’t dumping him.

When Hall signed with Buffalo, he made sure he had a NMC - not because he doesn't want to moved but because he wants to choose his destination at the TDL. It's also pretty clear Hall still wants to compete for a cup and the Avs was his preferred destination, the numbers just didn't work. The only reason Hall would force a NMC is so he could choose his destination at the deadline, and I imagine there were talks prior to signing that Buffalo would make sure the trade would happen for Hall at the TDL regardless of the value coming back, or else I don't see why he would sign there.

Sakic wouldn't meet Hall's demands, that doesn't mean he isn't interested in Hall. Having Saad + Hall for a cup run is a lot better than just having Hall. I'm sure Sakic is content to compete for a cup without Hall, but there was plenty of negotiation during the offseason.

 

[tucker3434]

It’d probably be a similar type of player but at forward. Anybody got a $4m forward that’s a little overpaid with one year left on his deal?

 

[Mrfenn92]

It’d probably be a similar type of player but at forward. Anybody got a $4m forward that’s a little overpaid with one year left on his deal?

Perrault

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

It’d probably be a similar type of player but at forward. Anybody got a $4m forward that’s a little overpaid with one year left on his deal?

Where would this new "similar to Cole" forward play, and is having them in the lineup really better than what we currently have? By my count, 11 of our forward slots are already filled, with the 12th being whichever of Jost/Kaut/Bowers/LOC/etc earns it. Maybe we could find a short term upgrade, but how would taking those opportunities hurt the long term development of our youngsters?

 

[Mickey Marner]

Should probably just keep him in the event of injuries. The Avs should still be able to add a player with a 4-5 AAV at the deadline .

 

[BKarchitect]

I trust our forward depth more than our defensive depth (this season at least), so I suppose just keep Cole in lieu of swapping him for a similarly priced and declining forward. As has been mentioned, EJ and Timmins are bound to get hurt and a lot of this talk is spurred by "making room" for Byram who has nothing to prove in the WHL and doesn't have any other real options. With the compacted schedule, taxi squad and inevitable injuries - I suspect an 8-deep blueline group of Makar-Girard-EJ-Toews-Graves-Cole-Timmins-Byram will all get plenty of action with Gilbert as emergency cover.

I'm less concerned with depth issues up front causing guys like LOC, Kaut, Dries and Bowers to have to play minimal 4th line roles than I am with depth issues on the backend causing us to ice a blueline completely lacking in experience and physicality.

 

[tucker3434]

Where would this new "similar to Cole" forward play, and is having them in the lineup really better than what we currently have? By my count, 11 of our forward slots are already filled, with the 12th being whichever of Jost/Kaut/Bowers/LOC/etc earns it. Maybe we could find a short term upgrade, but how would taking those opportunities hurt the long term development of our youngsters?

I think the Byram talk is a tad premature, but I do fully expect he’ll get a tryout. If that happens, who is the #7D? Then there’s Timmins...

So either we’ll go into game 1 with a $4m D or F eating nachos. I don’t really care which. I still expect it to be Cole. But if it isn’t, that’s about the only trade to make.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I think the Byram talk is a tad premature, but I do fully expect he’ll get a tryout. If that happens, who is the #7D? Then there’s Timmins...

So either we’ll go into game 1 with a $4m D or F eating nachos. I don’t really care which. I still expect it to be Cole. But if it isn’t, that’s about the only trade to make.

I agree that the Byram talk is premature. I also think it's premature to pencil Timmins in for a whole season. I think that they'll both get tryouts, and there's a chance one of them will earn the spot. But, even then, I prefer Cole eating nachos as the 7D over one of the youngsters, who would likely be better served getting ice time somewhere else.

I also think it's easier to shelter a young forward on the 4th line, rather than trying to shelter a young 3rd pairing D. So, I don't really see the point in moving Cole for a similar forward.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Aves don't have the depth on D for a cup run without Cole.

EJ getting injured is a certainty. Timmins as well.

Tyson Jost is a high end #3C so that hole has been filled through internal development. Sakic always has a plan to fill any holes.

Bahahahahahaha. Jost is a horrible option for 3C!

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

NEB claims another victim

 

[Richard88]

The Avs don’t need any more cap space but they do have a need for Cole. Solid 5/6 veteran defenseman who they’ll have the luxury of putting in and out of the lineup as they need. He’ll be fresh for the playoffs too.

Bednar said they will rest players this year so they can give their depth an opportunity to play games. They’ll use everyone. No need to move him unless they eventually need that cap space for some other hypothetical upgrade.

As you said yourself in bold, any trade involving Cole would most certainly be made with capspace in mind. If Sakic doesn't bring in a 3C or upgrade elsewhere then yes just stick with Cole. But if Byram and Timmins take steps this season to replace Cole, then his $4.25m caphit would be better used on upgrades elsewhere, rather than having $4.25m sitting in the press box more often than not.

Imagine for example that Sakic has the opportunity to acquire Taylor Hall at 50% retained ($4m aav) at the deadline. In that case it makes sense to jetisson Cole to make room (with any such move also naturally being dependent on one of Byram or Timmins actually replacing Cole too).

 

[Cousin Eddie]

As you said yourself in bold, any trade involving Cole would most certainly be made with capspace in mind. If Sakic doesn't bring in a 3C or upgrade elsewhere then yes just stick with Cole. But if Byram and Timmins take steps this season to replace Cole, then his $4.25m caphit would be better used on upgrades elsewhere, rather than having $4.25m sitting in the press box more often than not.

Imagine for example that Sakic has the opportunity to acquire Taylor Hall at 50% retained ($4m aav) at the deadline. In that case it makes sense to jetisson Cole to make room (with any such move also naturally being dependent on one of Byram or Timmins actually replacing Cole too).

Thanks to the taxi squad and the ability to bank cap space the Avs should have over 8M in cap space by the deadline. I don’t think they’ll need to move him even if they make a splash.

 

[Ararana]

The Avs don't need to trade Cole, they'll just rotate their bottom pairing. Byram will be phased in slowly and my bet is he's a full time NHLer before the playoffs hit. Cole can be injury insurance in his last contract year with the Avs. Lord knows the Avs need injury insurance on their defense.

 

[Richard88]

Thanks to the taxi squad and the ability to bank cap space the Avs should have over 8M in cap space by the deadline. I don’t think they’ll need to move him even if they make a splash.

How have you calculated the $8m figure? After accounting for adding a 7D and 13th forward for a 22 man roster there will only be around $150k in unused capspace, which won't accrue much, certainly not $8m.

I assume then that you're banking on cap savings by "burying" guys like Cole in the taxi squad for a time, but that would require them to pass through waivers first so is somewhat risky.

Keep in mind also that Makar has a $2.5m signing bonus this season and it wouldn't be surprising if he hit many of his targets to trigger most of that bonus. And that'll need to be accounted for as well with any accrued capspace so that overages don't leak into 2021/22 when capspace will be even more tight once Makar/Landeskog/Grubauer have gotten raises.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

How have you calculated the $8m figure? After accounting for adding a 7D and 13th forward for a 22 man roster there will only be around $150k in unused capspace, which won't accrue much, certainly not $8m.

I assume then that you're banking on cap savings by "burying" guys like Cole in the taxi squad for a time, but that would require them to pass through waivers first so is somewhat risky.

Keep in mind also that Makar has a $2.5m signing bonus this season and it wouldn't be surprising if he hit many of his targets to trigger most of that bonus. And that'll need to be accounted for as well with any accrued capspace so that overages don't leak into 2021/22 when capspace will be even more tight once Makar/Landeskog/Grubauer have gotten raises.

I’m expecting a 20 man roster most of the year. The Avs generally ran a 21 man roster in normal times. Now with the taxi squad they almost certainly will.

 

[Richard88]

I’m expecting a 20 man roster most of the year. The Avs generally ran a 21 man roster in normal times. Now with the taxi squad they almost certainly will.

Ahh that makes sense. With a 20 man roster there's $1.8m of capspace left that can accrue. Are there no rules about needing to have at least 22/23 roster players before tapping in to the taxi squad? This seems like a pretty obvious cap circumvention type of loophole for teams to use.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Ahh that makes sense. With a 20 man roster there's $1.8m of capspace left that can accrue. Are there no rules about needing to have at least 22/23 roster players before tapping in to the taxi squad? This seems like a pretty obvious cap circumvention type of loophole for teams to use.

It’s a loophole that will be used by most teams. I even asked Rosen about it in his mailbag and he said teams will use it since the taxi squad will travel with the team and those players are immediately available.

Johnston put out a pretty good article below explaining how the Leafs will use a smaller roster thanks to the Taxi Squad to accrue space for the deadline.

How Maple Leafs can use taxi squad to manage salary cap crunch

I expect most teams to carry a 20/21 man roster and just make paper transactions as needed.

Also this below is from Basu of The Athletic

irst of all, the Canadiens will be using the taxi squad to accrue cap space all season. Bergevin admitted as much. He is likely to have four players – Nick Suzuki, Jesperi Kotkaniemi, Alexander Romanov and Jake Evans – who will not require waivers to go back and forth from the taxi squad or even the Laval Rocket if need be. Every day any one of those players spends on the taxi squad or in Laval, the Canadiens are able to save that player’s daily cap hit.
So, for instance, Kotkaniemi’s daily cap hit is $7,974, which means for every day the Canadiens send him down, they would accrue that amount in cap space. For someone such as Perry or Frolik, that daily amount would be $6,466, and in the Canadiens’ situation, every penny counts. Then there are players with more term who make more money, someone like, say, Paul Byron, who has three years left at $3.4 million a year.
Byron’s daily cap hit is $29,310, but because you can bury a maximum of only $1.075 million of his contract, the Canadiens’ cap benefit for sending him to the taxi squad between games would be $1.075 million divided by the number of days in the season, 116. That amount comes out to $9,267 a day, and that number applies to any veteran the Canadiens might consider putting on waivers and sending down who makes at least $1.075 million a year.

 

[Richard88]

It’s a loophole that will be used by most teams. I even asked Rosen about it in his mailbag and he said teams will use it since the taxi squad will travel with the team and those players are immediately available.

Johnston put out a pretty good article below explaining how the Leafs will use a smaller roster thanks to the Taxi Squad to accrue space for the deadline.

How Maple Leafs can use taxi squad to manage salary cap crunch

I expect most teams to carry a 20/21 man roster and just make paper transactions as needed.

Also this below is from Basu of The Athletic

Thank you for clarifying this, really appreciate it!

I hadn't realised that teams could simply bypass the 22-23 man roster and simply park players on the taxi squad to save capspace. That is undoubtedly going to help a lot of GM's.

With that in mind, I agree that Avs are better off just keeping Cole instead of trading him, because with only a 20-21 man roster this season there should easily be enough cap accrued by the deadline to cover Makar's bonuses AND make a deadline addition.

In a broader sense, this cap relief will effectively make for a more competitive deadline market, instead of the rather dull outlook that one would expect if only very few competitive teams had been able to accrue capspace.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

At this stage in the offseason I think it’s going to be tough to move his contract. Unless a team like Ottawa, or Detroit who has lots of cap space is looking for a bottom pair guy.