Speculation: I Was Wrong About Tanking

[May Day 10]

I'd like to hear more about this. I read a ton of comments here about Pegula being a meddling owner but no real details or known examples. I don't doubt the possibility, but I prefer facts before making that conclusion.

I don't blame any owner for wanting to be kept in the loop of major decisions (which seems understandable after TM). Then there's a foggy area where some people might think an owner is interfering just by being involved or adding his opinion. Then there's flat out dictation by telling a GM what to do.

I still don't know where Pegula falls. I wish there was more specific examples from people that have been in the know, but that type of info might never be available.

I know both botterill and adams have been on record saying they speak to pegula every day. Adams even says he likes how terry presents "challenging ideas".
Botterill once said that he didn't have jurisdiction over the coach. Ownership did and both gm and coach report to ownership. The Pegulas even donated a large sum of money to Karin Housley's senate campaign which makes for an awkward/deeper relationship.
When the pegulas got rid of lafontaine and Murray. I recall Terry's pc saying his biggest regret was giving up control, and he would never let that happen again.

Throughout ownership, terry and Kim pegula have championed an atmosphere that had "open communication" and everyone was free to share challenging ideas. This was parroting specifically at times by botterill, housley, Krueger, adams, and granato.

People I know and trust within ps&e have independently told me that Kim and lafontaine continually butted heads with the president role being overruled which led to the crescendo of the circus resignation.

Someone like lou lamoriello has no patience or need for "ideas" and open communication. In my opinion, that is code for ownership can actively steer the gm and maybe coach.

A president needs to make hard decisions. Uncomfortable ones. Sometimes heartless. Sometimes expensive. Ownership needs to provide autonomy and trust.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I know both botterill and adams have been on record saying they speak to pegula every day. Adams even says he likes how terry presents "challenging ideas".
Botterill once said that he didn't have jurisdiction over the coach. Ownership did and both gm and coach report to ownership. The Pegulas even donated a large sum of money to Karin Housley's senate campaign which makes for an awkward/deeper relationship.
When the pegulas got rid of lafontaine and Murray. I recall Terry's pc saying his biggest regret was giving up control, and he would never let that happen again.

Throughout ownership, terry and Kim pegula have championed an atmosphere that had "open communication" and everyone was free to share challenging ideas. This was parroting specifically at times by botterill, housley, Krueger, adams, and granato.

People I know and trust within ps&e have independently told me that Kim and lafontaine continually butted heads with the president role being overruled which led to the crescendo of the circus resignation.

Someone like lou lamoriello has no patience or need for "ideas" and open communication. In my opinion, that is code for ownership can actively steer the gm and maybe coach.

A president needs to make hard decisions. Uncomfortable ones. Sometimes heartless. Sometimes expensive. Ownership needs to provide autonomy and trust.

A lot of this hinges on the acute details. Presenting ideas can be done or taken both positively and negatively. Communication, from my pov and work experience is critical. But...if the GM doesn't actually have authority over the HC and they both answer equally to the owner, that seems dysfunctional. One way or the other, this organization seems in desperate need of someone with a lot of experience running an NHL front office.

 

[KeyserSoze81]

I think Murray had the right idea..and was actually building something.

His failure was targeting some bad guys for either bad character, drama or injuries.

I think he would of got us to playoffs if given more time

He is the only GM that executed on a vision. He actively tried to address holes, and tried to form his idea of a heavy forechecking team with large humans playing goalie. It failed and he overspent like a sailor on shore leave, but he certainly went after it. I still love the move to bring ROR to the team.

Murray did a lot of damage to the team, but I at least appreciated what he was trying to do. He behaved like a sociopath, but I guess I prefer that over the aimless limbo that the team has been stuck on for years now.

 

[Chainshot]

TPegs “flat structure” was certainly part of the Krueger-Adams dynamic at the outset.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I didn't come to this forum until way after the damage was done, but I thought it was a terrible stain on "the best fans in hockey" when the home fans cheered against their team live. The Buffalo Sabres have been a zombie franchise since the fans cheered for Arizona to beat them on home ice. That was the day that "f*** Buffalo" became an NHL given.

This right here is a massive stain on the franchise, even when the building erupted in cheers when Toews scored the game winning goal to secure best odds, I haven't heard the building that loud since.

The shame of it still stinks the fanbase up and has brought in a losing atmosphere into the arena.

 

[Ehran]

This right here is a massive stain on the franchise, even when the building erupted in cheers when Toews scored the game winning goal to secure best odds, I haven't heard the building that loud since.

The shame of it still stinks the fanbase up and has brought in a losing atmosphere into the arena.

Eh, the building was pretty GD loud a few seasons ago when the Sabres went on a 10-game winning streak. Really, really loud.

Win. Show effort. The fans will return if given a reason to. Empty promises don't cut it anymore.

 

[Panthaz89]

Not really just get the right coaching and GM and right the ship has absolutely nothing to do with intentionally tanking in any way. Many organizations have blatantly done worse than the Sabres and were rewarded immediately by not being idiots.

 

[Sabresbyswords104]

Rebuild was correct it was just the wrong people hired time after time with no patience and plan that set us back and back . Adams been patient but he been other way around to passive and starting to become to patient now . So he really need to do something this summer. And i really think he understand this and Will do it . Because now sabres have all the Young players . The action needs to come now.

Adams and granato is fired next season if not making playoffs. Cant draft more Young players we have to many . So we need to take action . Removing Olofsson Okposo and these

I think Adams plays this season out , drafts good and adress the roster in the summer .

 

[joshjull]

What do you mean intentionally? You don't accidentally tank

Phil Housley would beg to differ.

 

[joshjull]

TPegs “flat structure” was certainly part of the Krueger-Adams dynamic at the outset.

It was pretty wild how good Krueger was at backroom office in fighting. Not ony does he survive the GM who hired him getting fired. He gains more power in the organization by effectively getting Co-GM status as part of that flat management set up. Then fires the AHL coached he didn’t like as well.

 

[Djp]

There's a difference between having a bad roster after selling off your good players to restock versus sending players back down to the AHL or scratching them when they were performing well in said year.

Selling them off instead of thrm walking for nothing is the way you do it.

 

[joshjull]

Not really just get the right coaching and GM and right the ship has absolutely nothing to do with intentionally tanking in any way. Many organizations have blatantly done worse than the Sabres and were rewarded immediately by not being idiots.

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything other than a high draft pick. There is also a decent amount of luck involved in team building. Like the Hawks getting Kane. Talk about a kick in the balls for Philly after being by far the worse team and getting JVR instead.

I fought against the idea at the time because I knew it would lead to several years of crappy hockey and no guarantee we come out with a great team. I’m not talking about right now but the seasons of the tank and the few right after.

It agree with you that it’s not why we are still struggling right now. But it very much played a role in fans growing as bitter as they are at the moment. Too many were of the overly optimistic belief that things would magically turn around after the tank ended. Or that it guaranteed us something. So when it didn’t happen like that, they realized we waste several seasons on a fantasy.

 

[Djp]

Leadership overhaul. Look at Dave Tallon track record building the Blackhawks Dynasty, turning around Florida and now Vancouver is getting better.

Neither Florida nor Vancouver “tanked”.

since 2013 Vancouver has drafted 6 top 10 picks including Hughes and EP.

2010-2014 Florida drafted top 3 in 4 of 5 drafts. 5 others drafted 10-15 since

other cup winners in LA, Chicago, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh all had multiple top 5 picks …….

but none of them tanked

 

[Djp]

You would’ve rather we lost Vanek, Pominville, and Miller at the end of the season for nothing instead of trading them for picks? The team was headed for the basement whether we made those move or not, it was just a question of how soon.

i agree 100%

The problem with the rebuild wasn’t the simple fact of doing it. It was the garbage GMs and coaches we had along the way.

I disagree here. Outside sources had Murray and Botterill on thr short list of future gm Candidates.

Murray had a strategy and made an effort. The problem was buffalo didn’t have the system depth from 2006-2011. TM tried to hire Babcock and he exited last minute.

it takes prospects longer to develop in thr nhl than other leagues. 2021 is whrn KA started the rebuild it’s a little over 2 yrs.


in hockey

 

[TehDoak]

It was pretty wild how good Krueger was at backroom office in fighting. Not ony does he survive the GM who hired him getting fired. He gains more power in the organization by effectively getting Co-GM status as part of that flat management set up. Then fires the AHL coached he didn’t like as well.

Krueger seems like a guy who is pretty great at telling people what they want to hear. If you've been around slimy sales guys a lot, you can pick it up pretty quick. Krueger knew what the Pegula's wanted to hear and it took an epic losing streak to get him out. If we had just been 'bad' in Adams first year, Krueger probably would have gotten another shot.