I just want two top 6 wingers, thats it.

Jesus Vitale

Formerly CPZ17
Nov 19, 2010
2,083
0
Pittsburgh
People act like it's so easy to just get top six wingers in free agency or in a trade. With Sid, Geno, Tanger, and a lesser extent Neal, Martin, Fleury etc signed for big deals, the Pens are almost never going to have enough cap space to just go get 1 or more top six wingers in the prime of their careers.

The Pens are going to have to either draft, trade for past prime or wingers with potential. that's the truth of it. They're gonna need to get someone who can scout and develop wingers to get some ELCs.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
I don't think taking away both of Crosby's most familiar wingers would go over so well.

Even if you replace him with someone who is even better like Kane? Sid had two brand new wingers when we won the Cup. I think the chemistry issue is often very overblown here. Kunitz has helped Geno win an Art Ross before too.

Or if need be, you do

Kunitz - Crosby - Neal
Kane - Malkin - Bennett

That works just fine.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
People act like it's so easy to just get top six wingers in free agency or in a trade. With Sid, Geno, Tanger, and a lesser extent Neal, Martin, Fleury etc signed for big deals, the Pens are almost never going to have enough cap space to just go get 1 or more top six wingers in the prime of their careers.

The Pens are going to have to either draft, trade for past prime or wingers with potential. that's the truth of it. They're gonna need to get someone who can scout and develop wingers to get some ELCs.

The cap dropped dramatically this year, and we could have afforded a 6M dollar winger just by not signing Dupuis and Scuderi.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
32,616
5,074
Sid isn't as good as we think he is if he can't make things work with Evander Kane on his offwing.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
Sid isn't as good as we think he is if he can't make things work with Evander Kane on his offwing.

the question is would Evander Kane be worth the price he'll cost to play on his off wing. If he's not as good on the right, and the position we are looking for is on the right, then we'd be better off looking for a RW because WPG will not be giving us a discount for the downgraded RW version.


That said:
1 I'm still not convinced we wouldn't have a spot on the left for him.
2 I have no idea if he could play on the right.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,587
21,126
Even if you replace him with someone who is even better like Kane? Sid had two brand new wingers when we won the Cup. I think the chemistry issue is often very overblown here. Kunitz has helped Geno win an Art Ross before too.

Or if need be, you do

Kunitz - Crosby - Neal
Kane - Malkin - Bennett

That works just fine.

There were a lot of better forwards than Kunitz on Team Canada. Pretty much all of them, actually. We know how that worked out, haha.

It's not for lack of options. At this point I think it goes without saying that Sid prefers Kunitz independent of what other players are available. Familiarity is huge for him. Moving Dupes off his line is hard enough.

I imagine Malkin's even less inclined to see Neal moved from his line. Kunitz/Crosby and Malkin/Neal are locks on their respective lines, IMHO.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
There were a lot of better forwards than Kunitz on Team Canada. Pretty much all of them, actually. We know how that worked out, haha.

It's not for lack of options. At this point I think it goes without saying that Sid prefers Kunitz independent of what other players are available. Familiarity is huge for him. Moving Dupes off his line is hard enough.

I imagine Malkin's even less inclined to see Neal moved from his line. Kunitz/Crosby and Malkin/Neal are locks on their respective lines, IMHO.

I disagree. Actually, I don't disagree that that's how Disco sees it. I do disagree that its the right call. Would I switch them right now? No. Would I be perfectly fine switching them going into training camp with all season to work together? Absolutely.

34 year old Chris Kunitz having a position locked up should not be the reason we don't go after a guy like Evander Kane.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,587
21,126
I disagree. Actually, I don't disagree that that's how Disco sees it. I do disagree that its the right call. Would I switch them right now? No. Would I be perfectly fine switching them going into training camp with all season to work together? Absolutely.

34 year old Chris Kunitz having a position locked up should not be the reason we don't go after a guy like Evander Kane.

Well, it's not really just DB, as we saw in Sochi. Maybe there's something to it if a the best coach in the world with all the fantastic wing options in the world still chooses to put Sid and Kunitz together.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
Well, it's not really just DB, as we saw in Sochi. Maybe there's something to it if a the best coach in the world with all the fantastic wing options in the world still chooses to put Sid and Kunitz together.

it was what, a 5 game tournament? Familiarity means a lot more when you don't have time to build that chemistry through a training camp and an 82 game season. 15-20 games was enough time to get familiar with Kunitz and Guerin in 2009. I think 82 games would be plenty for whoever we bring in.

The only two positions that should be locked down for next season already are Sid and Geno as our top 2 centers.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,587
21,126
it was what, a 5 game tournament? Familiarity means a lot more when you don't have time to build that chemistry through a training camp and an 82 game season. 15-20 games was enough time to get familiar with Kunitz and Guerin in 2009. I think 82 games would be plenty for whoever we bring in.

The only two positions that should be locked down for next season already are Sid and Geno as our top 2 centers.

It's more important in a short tourney. I don't think it's negligible even over an 82 game season, particularly when it involves a newcomer who's not exactly known for playing well with others.

Kunitz and Neal have shown enough with their respective centers to keep them there. I understand wanting more talent, but I don't think it should be an automatic that they push out guys who've thrived in their roles.
 

eXile59

Shirts on.
Jan 2, 2009
18,221
1
PA
People act like it's so easy to just get top six wingers in free agency or in a trade. With Sid, Geno, Tanger, and a lesser extent Neal, Martin, Fleury etc signed for big deals, the Pens are almost never going to have enough cap space to just go get 1 or more top six wingers in the prime of their careers.

The Pens are going to have to either draft, trade for past prime or wingers with potential. that's the truth of it. They're gonna need to get someone who can scout and develop wingers to get some ELCs.

The cap isn't the major problem. Well not in the way you are using it at least. It's going up and we could lose some dead weight.

The problem is with the cap it allows teams to compete now. So they sign their players and keep them. Team's don't ship assets like Kane or Kessler away for futures anymore. They want serious return and Shero isn't going to do that. FA is for the most part older players now. A player like Parise will come up un a blue moon but every team is going to bid on him.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
32,616
5,074
Kane fits our go north like you're on fire style. He brings a bit of nasty and legit skill we could use.

I'd pay a premium over any Kesler deal to get him.
 

lastcupever75

Phive cups PA.
May 14, 2009
5,728
247
its more the type of wingers they need in the top 6 .

guys like lucic and bickell (FA last year) would be ideal next to crosby or geno
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
2
its more the type of wingers they need in the top 6 .

guys like lucic and bickell (FA last year) would be ideal next to crosby or geno

Bickell shouldn't be "ideal" for anyone's top six. He might be an okay complement to Geno and Neal, but I wouldn't want him near our top line
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
It's more important in a short tourney. I don't think it's negligible even over an 82 game season, particularly when it involves a newcomer who's not exactly known for playing well with others.

Kunitz and Neal have shown enough with their respective centers to keep them there. I understand wanting more talent, but I don't think it should be an automatic that they push out guys who've thrived in their roles.

Kunitz is 34 and he isn't exactly built like a guy who is going to play into his 40s at a high level. He's had a ton of injuries over the years. He's going to get pushed out sooner or later anyway. I don't want to pass up chances at great players because Chris Kunitz has their ideal position locked up. Especially when we know Kunitz can play extremely well with either of our centers. It just doesn't make sense.

There is absolutely no reason to limit our options when both of our best wingers can play with either of our best centers. If we end up with Sid playing with Neal and Geno playing with Kunitz next year, so be it. Both of those combinations are great. Yes, both Kunitz and Neal have shown enough with their centers to keep them there. They've also both shown enough with the other center to justify switching them if better options become available. I'm not saying anything should be automatic here. I'm saying the exact opposite actually. Nobody should be locked into a position. We should be open to whatever options are available. As long as Kunitz is our only left wing signed, then we should be looking to signing the best left wing we can find regardless of which of Sid or Geno he fits best with. We know for sure Kunitz can play with either.
 
Last edited:

Malkin4Top6Wingerz

Can you like, shutup
Mar 14, 2009
5,032
9
Getting Evander Kane, Blake Wheeler, or any of these other guys is a bit of a pipe dream, I think. Shero would have to pay a hefty price to pry that kind of young talent away from a rebuilding team. I mean, Wheeler would have been an excellent target a few years back when he was still with Boston. He was stuck on a very deep team and wasn't getting the consistent opportunities under Julien that he needed to thrive. Atlanta / Winnipeg bought low and are now reaping the benefits. Without knowing anything that went on behind the scenes it's tough to criticize Shero for not making a trade. For all we know Boston wasn't going to deal him to a fellow powerhouse no matter the price, especially considering the talent of our centers. That probably doesn't get any easier after the Neal trade. Still, those opportunities are out there from time to time and if we're ever going to get another one of these players outside of the draft it's going to have to come in the form of some shrewd trades. Emptying the farm system and dumping draft picks will net you some pretty good players, but you'll likely be paying market value on their upcoming contract and nobody will accuse you of getting great value.

Honestly though, people need to temper their expectations. Good proven top 6 forwards come at a high price, especially if they are on a cap friendly contract. Shero's goal should instead be to find quality players with decent skillsets who are flying below the radar. Stempniak is a prime example. He's played for awful teams for much of his career and as a result not many people know anything about him. His numbers are ok, not spectacular. Seems like a 2nd line tweener, perhaps best suited as a third liner. His peripheral numbers, however, are quite good. He's been a positive territorial player for the last few years on the dumpster fire that is the Calgary Flames. He takes a good number of shots, which is a valuable skill. If you want to use the eye test, it's evident that he's a good skater who can handle the puck well. He's crafty. He can score. He can play on the PK. He's basically the swiss army knife of hockey players, and he's precisely the kind of player that this team should be targeting more often. No, he's not Evander Kane, but he won't cost the arm and leg that Kane will and on top of that we can easily retain him without making sacrifices at other positions.

Getting good value on underrated players is extremely important when you have two guys with monstrous cap hits. Letang will soon make three. They can come in the form of younger players (Neal, Niskanen) or veterans (Kunitz, Jokinen, Stempniak, Goc). I could even include Ponikarovsky even though he didn't work out because we didn't lose anything worthwhile and he was worth taking a chance on. Not every move has to be a big splash, and no move no matter how calculated is guaranteed to work out the way you want it to.

While Shero's latest moves have been good, and he's made some great trades during his tenure here, he's also made some pretty boneheaded decisions over the past year or so which go against the philosophy I laid out above. He drastically overpaid for players who were essentially done in Morrow and Murray (and fans of their former teams were saying as much at the time). I won't mention the Iginla trade because again, you can't be completely results oriented. It was a fair price and seemed like a good match at the time. Clearly his season with Boston is showing that he's far from finished, and many would argue his failure here had to do with being misused and miscast.

Moving on, Shero made a big mistake in signing Scuderi to one of those retirement contracts. It's the kind of signing that at best works out okay and at worst is really, really bad. There's just not much upside to signing an aging positionally sound shot blocking defenseman in his late 30's unless he comes at some kind of bargain. Scuderi did not come at a bargain. It's an especially puzzling move given the depth we had at the position. It hasn't worked out well so far, and there's not any reason to think that it gets better from here. Moreover, the logic behind signing Scuderi bodes well for the return of another defenseman that makes us a worse team when he's on the ice - Brooks Orpik. Having mediocre players on bad contracts is just as impactful to a team's future prospects as signing good players to cap friendly deals, especially when the entire organization is still under the delusion that they are useful players who need quality ice time.

Re-signing Dupuis sort of falls into the same idea, except that he is actually still a fairly decent player. The problem is the term of the contract. He's a guy who brings one element in spades, and that's speed. Not the kind of player I'd be hitching my wagon to at the tail end of their career.

Everything comes full circle with Fleury. Despite being a train wreck in the playoffs year after year, Shero refuses to cut ties with him, even when the new CBA presents something of a 'get out of jail free' card. The next thing you know Bylsma is endorsing Fleury as the de-facto starter in a press conference and Vokoun, one of Shero's best acquisitions, gets thrown under the bus. It's all rather maddening, really.

There are times when Shero does seem to 'get it'. Others not so much. He's become as much of a jekyll and hyde GM as the goaltender he refuses to divorce. During the offseason I have no clue if he's going to rob Gillis blind in a deal for Kesler or if he'll re-sign Orpik to a contract worth $6m a year. Maybe he'll do both. As long as that's the case, this team will continue to be a tier below the true elite teams despite having as good of a core as anyone.
 

Fire Shero*

Guest
People act like it's so easy to just get top six wingers in free agency or in a trade. With Sid, Geno, Tanger, and a lesser extent Neal, Martin, Fleury etc signed for big deals, the Pens are almost never going to have enough cap space to just go get 1 or more top six wingers in the prime of their careers.

The Pens are going to have to either draft, trade for past prime or wingers with potential. that's the truth of it. They're gonna need to get someone who can scout and develop wingers to get some ELCs.

So then draft some forwards durp durp.

I'm sorry, sitting around and never doing a damn thing about it because of cap issues is the lazy approach. Maybe we could have traded Letang? Maybe we could draft a non joke forward? Maybe instead of wasting money on Scuderi, and a half dozen nhl rejects, we could maybe just maybe sign a forward.
 

SaturdayNightSlegr

Registered User
Jan 2, 2009
635
37
Pittsburgh suburbs
I agree its highly unlikely the Pens can get Kane or Wheeler from Winnipeg. Why would the Jets want to give them up? They are like their Crosby and Malkin. IMO it would take moving a major piece (i.e. Maatta) to be able to get those guys.

Also, not sure how Bennett can be included in any package. Right now he is more valuable to the Pens than other team. He passes the eye test, but he's been out of the lineup so much and his production is low. Similarly, no team is going to want Letang either due to health issues.

It will end up being another summer of low-risk signings of the DAgostini's of the world. Our "big signings" will be some combination of Stempniak, Goc, and/or Kulemin. .
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
Bickell shouldn't be "ideal" for anyone's top six. He might be an okay complement to Geno and Neal, but I wouldn't want him near our top line

I generally agree but he's the kind of guy that makes a difference when the playoffs roll around. I'm glad we didn't give a guy like him 4mil per but we need guys like him.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
Oct 5, 2009
26,457
3,575
I Love Scotch
Getting Evander Kane, Blake Wheeler, or any of these other guys is a bit of a pipe dream, I think. Shero would have to pay a hefty price to pry that kind of young talent away from a rebuilding team. I mean, Wheeler would have been an excellent target a few years back when he was still with Boston. He was stuck on a very deep team and wasn't getting the consistent opportunities under Julien that he needed to thrive. Atlanta / Winnipeg bought low and are now reaping the benefits. Without knowing anything that went on behind the scenes it's tough to criticize Shero for not making a trade. For all we know Boston wasn't going to deal him to a fellow powerhouse no matter the price, especially considering the talent of our centers. That probably doesn't get any easier after the Neal trade. Still, those opportunities are out there from time to time and if we're ever going to get another one of these players outside of the draft it's going to have to come in the form of some shrewd trades. Emptying the farm system and dumping draft picks will net you some pretty good players, but you'll likely be paying market value on their upcoming contract and nobody will accuse you of getting great value.

Honestly though, people need to temper their expectations. Good proven top 6 forwards come at a high price, especially if they are on a cap friendly contract. Shero's goal should instead be to find quality players with decent skillsets who are flying below the radar. Stempniak is a prime example. He's played for awful teams for much of his career and as a result not many people know anything about him. His numbers are ok, not spectacular. Seems like a 2nd line tweener, perhaps best suited as a third liner. His peripheral numbers, however, are quite good. He's been a positive territorial player for the last few years on the dumpster fire that is the Calgary Flames. He takes a good number of shots, which is a valuable skill. If you want to use the eye test, it's evident that he's a good skater who can handle the puck well. He's crafty. He can score. He can play on the PK. He's basically the swiss army knife of hockey players, and he's precisely the kind of player that this team should be targeting more often. No, he's not Evander Kane, but he won't cost the arm and leg that Kane will and on top of that we can easily retain him without making sacrifices at other positions.

Getting good value on underrated players is extremely important when you have two guys with monstrous cap hits. Letang will soon make three. They can come in the form of younger players (Neal, Niskanen) or veterans (Kunitz, Jokinen, Stempniak, Goc). I could even include Ponikarovsky even though he didn't work out because we didn't lose anything worthwhile and he was worth taking a chance on. Not every move has to be a big splash, and no move no matter how calculated is guaranteed to work out the way you want it to.

While Shero's latest moves have been good, and he's made some great trades during his tenure here, he's also made some pretty boneheaded decisions over the past year or so which go against the philosophy I laid out above. He drastically overpaid for players who were essentially done in Morrow and Murray (and fans of their former teams were saying as much at the time). I won't mention the Iginla trade because again, you can't be completely results oriented. It was a fair price and seemed like a good match at the time. Clearly his season with Boston is showing that he's far from finished, and many would argue his failure here had to do with being misused and miscast.

Moving on, Shero made a big mistake in signing Scuderi to one of those retirement contracts. It's the kind of signing that at best works out okay and at worst is really, really bad. There's just not much upside to signing an aging positionally sound shot blocking defenseman in his late 30's unless he comes at some kind of bargain. Scuderi did not come at a bargain. It's an especially puzzling move given the depth we had at the position. It hasn't worked out well so far, and there's not any reason to think that it gets better from here. Moreover, the logic behind signing Scuderi bodes well for the return of another defenseman that makes us a worse team when he's on the ice - Brooks Orpik. Having mediocre players on bad contracts is just as impactful to a team's future prospects as signing good players to cap friendly deals, especially when the entire organization is still under the delusion that they are useful players who need quality ice time.

Re-signing Dupuis sort of falls into the same idea, except that he is actually still a fairly decent player. The problem is the term of the contract. He's a guy who brings one element in spades, and that's speed. Not the kind of player I'd be hitching my wagon to at the tail end of their career.

Everything comes full circle with Fleury. Despite being a train wreck in the playoffs year after year, Shero refuses to cut ties with him, even when the new CBA presents something of a 'get out of jail free' card. The next thing you know Bylsma is endorsing Fleury as the de-facto starter in a press conference and Vokoun, one of Shero's best acquisitions, gets thrown under the bus. It's all rather maddening, really.

There are times when Shero does seem to 'get it'. Others not so much. He's become as much of a jekyll and hyde GM as the goaltender he refuses to divorce. During the offseason I have no clue if he's going to rob Gillis blind in a deal for Kesler or if he'll re-sign Orpik to a contract worth $6m a year. Maybe he'll do both. As long as that's the case, this team will continue to be a tier below the true elite teams despite having as good of a core as anyone.

giphy.gif


Well said my good man.
 

TheGoldenJet

Registered User
Apr 2, 2008
9,487
4,596
Coquitlam, BC
it was what, a 5 game tournament? Familiarity means a lot more when you don't have time to build that chemistry through a training camp and an 82 game season. 15-20 games was enough time to get familiar with Kunitz and Guerin in 2009. I think 82 games would be plenty for whoever we bring in.

The only two positions that should be locked down for next season already are Sid and Geno as our top 2 centers.

I agree with this post 100%.

If we are upgrading on Kunitz, there is very little drawback in shuffling Kunitz down a line. He has excellent chemistry with Geno as well, and the only question is whether Sid would work with the newly acquired wing.

In Evander Kane's case, I think Sid would make it work very, very well.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad