Hypothetical optimistic legacies of Ken, Blash

[The Zetterberg Era]

Babcock is one of the best coaches in hockey.
But even though he'd sort of lost his team and his message had gone stale, and it was time for him to find a new place, he got the team in the playoffs.

In Blashill's first season he finished in the same spot as Babcock.

In fact if the rumors are true, Datsyuk leaves if Babcock returns and we likely aren't in the playoffs Blashill's first year with the team like we were.

The real decline was when Kronwall was no longer capable of playing at a high level for this team. He was shouldering a tremendous amount defensively and when his wheels feel off we became a bottom feeder. Now maybe Babcock is DeKeyser's magic elixir, not sure but I seriously doubt he is getting a ton more out of a bunch of these guys because they aren't very good.

But lets use your logic in terms of Babcock's horrendous first year in Toronto. I mean Blashill took a team with bottom three talent and perhaps the worst D-core in the league with inconsistent goalies and pushed them into the playoff race until the organization decided to fall apart over the second half. Oh no that isn't what happened with Blashill only Babcock can come out of a second half fade with that was intentional. Babcock is a very good coach, he delivers to the expectations of his team. Including when you give him one of the worst teams in the league he has finished out of the playoffs in both Anaheim and Toronto. There is absolutely no reason to believe Babcock could bring this team into playoff contention. I think that is an outlandish assertion. Babcock over his longer years got more out of some teams and thudded out with teams that should have gone deeper. However, by in large I think the most impressive thing about Babcock is you know what to expect when you give him a certain kind of roster. You give him a first round loser and he goes to the first round and loses. You give him one of the better teams and he goes deep. You give him the worst team in hockey and he finishes dead last. He has a consistent approach and that is huge in professional sports. But he isn't polishing this turd either in my opinion.

 

[Redder Winger]

In Blashill's first season he finished in the same spot as Babcock.

In fact if the rumors are true, Datsyuk leaves if Babcock returns and we likely aren't in the playoffs Blashill's first year with the team like we were.

The real decline was when Kronwall was no longer capable of playing at a high level for this team. He was shouldering a tremendous amount defensively and when his wheels feel off we became a bottom feeder. Now maybe Babcock is DeKeyser's magic elixir, not sure but I seriously doubt he is getting a ton more out of a bunch of these guys because they aren't very good.

But lets use your logic in terms of Babcock's horrendous first year in Toronto. I mean Blashill took a team with bottom three talent and perhaps the worst D-core in the league with inconsistent goalies and pushed them into the playoff race until the organization decided to fall apart over the second half. Oh no that isn't what happened with Blashill only Babcock can come out of a second half fade with that was intentional. Babcock is a very good coach, he delivers to the expectations of his team. Including when you give him one of the worst teams in the league he has finished out of the playoffs in both Anaheim and Toronto. There is absolutely no reason to believe Babcock could bring this team into playoff contention. I think that is an outlandish assertion. Babcock over his longer years got more out of some teams and thudded out with teams that should have gone deeper. However, by in large I think the most impressive thing about Babcock is you know what to expect when you give him a certain kind of roster. You give him a first round loser and he goes to the first round and loses. You give him one of the better teams and he goes deep. You give him the worst team in hockey and he finishes dead last. He has a consistent approach and that is huge in professional sports. But he isn't polishing this turd either in my opinion.

Babcock often overshoots the mark, like when he took the Ducks to the finals.
Like how fast he's turned the Leafs around despite a garbage dumpster fire defense.

On January first Toronto was at 23-15-2 -- tied for 2nd in the division and 3rd in the conference.
Babcock could have had that team make the playoffs, IMO, but they tanked the team because it was the right thing to do.
So they lost 30 of the final 42 games, won the lottery, drafted Matthews and the rest is history.

If Babcock came back to Detroit this year to start the season - it might have chased a couple of veterans away - maybe.
But he easily could have whipped this team into playoff contention.

That's not what this team needs though. This team need to lose and we've got the perfect coach for that.

Just on the powerplay alone, Babcock could have had this team going.
His last year in Detroit his powerplay had 68 goals.
This year we have 35.

Here's Detroit's PP
14-15 Babcock 68
15-16 Blashill 46
16-17 Blasshil 37
17-18 Blashill 35

Let's conservatively say that Babcock is worth 10 PP goals.
What's that worth? in the standings?

I've watched the NHL a long time. Coaches who get teams to buy in to strong systems can mask deficiencies. The Hitchocks. The Babcocks.

I have no doubt a good coach could have taken our team and turned them into a middle-of-the-pack squad.. It would have been kicking and screaming to finish 16th and o pick 15th in the draft, so what's the point?

 

[kliq]

Babcock often overshoots the mark, like when he took the Ducks to the finals.
Like how fast he's turned the Leafs around despite a garbage dumpster fire defense.

On January first Toronto was at 23-15-2 -- tied for 2nd in the division and 3rd in the conference.
Babcock could have had that team make the playoffs, IMO, but they tanked the team because it was the right thing to do.
So they lost 30 of the final 42 games, won the lottery, drafted Matthews and the rest is history.

If Babcock came back to Detroit this year to start the season - it might have chased a couple of veterans away - maybe.
But he easily could have whipped this team into playoff contention.

That's not what this team needs though. This team need to lose and we've got the perfect coach for that.

I have family that are Leafs fans, and I end up watching as much Leafs as I do Wings and what people often forget is half the team was also injured that year. Now, did management encourage a long recovery for the players? Maybe. But it was more then just a stealth tank.

Also, the Leafs still did have Reilly and Gardiner, their D wasn't as bad as ours for most of the year but by seasons end if was those two with AHL guys (Marincin, Corrado, Brennan, Campbell).

 

[Redder Winger]

I have family that are Leafs fans, and I end up watching as much Leafs as I do Wings and what people often forget is half the team was also injured that year. Now, did management encourage a long recovery for the players? Maybe. But it was more then just a stealth tank.

Also, the Leafs still did have Reilly and Gardiner, their D wasn't as bad as ours for most of the year but by seasons end if was those two with AHL guys (Marincin, Corrado, Brennan, Campbell).

The Leafs traded Phaneuf, Polak, Matthias, Winnik and their starter, Reimer.
They were obviously in tank mode.
Now, by the deadline, the team had already tanked.
Reily and Gardener are terrible defensive players


By the way, I was wrong earlier. I'd clicked on the wrong season.
On Jan. 1, Toronto was in 7th in the division at 14-15-7.

15-16
Nov 1 - 1-7-2 - last place
Dec. 1 - 8-11-5 Last place
Jan. 1 - 14-15-7 - 7th (in the division)
Feb. 1 - 17-22-9 last place
March 1 - 21-30-10 last place
Final 29-42-11 - last place

So looking back, and trying to piece together my memory of that season, I'd say that in November and December, Toronto went 13-8-5, is about when I began thinking Toronto could potentially make some noise in what was a pretty awful division.

 

[Frk It]

Babcock often overshoots the mark, like when he took the Ducks to the finals.
Like how fast he's turned the Leafs around despite a garbage dumpster fire defense.

On January first Toronto was at 23-15-2 -- tied for 2nd in the division and 3rd in the conference.
Babcock could have had that team make the playoffs, IMO, but they tanked the team because it was the right thing to do.
So they lost 30 of the final 42 games, won the lottery, drafted Matthews and the rest is history.

If Babcock came back to Detroit this year to start the season - it might have chased a couple of veterans away - maybe.
But he easily could have whipped this team into playoff contention.

That's not what this team needs though. This team need to lose and we've got the perfect coach for that.

Just on the powerplay alone, Babcock could have had this team going.
His last year in Detroit his powerplay had 68 goals.
This year we have 35.

Here's Detroit's PP
14-15 Babcock 68
15-16 Blashill 46
16-17 Blasshil 37
17-18 Blashill 35

Let's conservatively say that Babcock is worth 10 PP goals.
What's that worth? in the standings?

I've watched the NHL a long time. Coaches who get teams to buy in to strong systems can mask deficiencies. The Hitchocks. The Babcocks.

I have no doubt a good coach could have taken our team and turned them into a middle-of-the-pack squad.. It would have been kicking and screaming to finish 16th and o pick 15th in the draft, so what's the point?

Asst. Coaches run the PP + PK

 

[Redder Winger]

Asst. Coaches run the PP + PK

Not without the blessing of their head coach.
Babcock took his guy with him for a reason.

But whatever. Let's just get back on topic, That if somehow Holland and Blashill turn it around, they'll have great legacies and all the critics will have to admit they're wrong

 

[Henkka]

Asst. Coaches run the PP + PK

95.0% (17.0% + 78.0%) combined results... good TANK job.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not without the blessing of their head coach.
Babcock took his guy with him for a reason.

But whatever. Let's just get back on topic, That if somehow Holland and Blashill turn it around, they'll have great legacies and all the critics will have to admit they're wrong

That is basically our one outlier season down the stretch with Babcock who had significant trouble with special teams in his ending years, which is part of the reason he started looking for new assistants. Also him and that assistant managed to finish dead last during their stealth tank next season in Toronto. The Leafs numbers indicated they would be a big fade team in the second half and they were.

Yes Babcock took the Ducks on a miracle run, yes the year they got into the playoffs and crushed by Boston was overachieving. 2006 was an unmitigated disaster as was the Nashville series where Trotz coached circles around him. Both of those teams had no business going out before the Conference finals. So he has overachieved a few years and underachieved a few years. What I was complementing him on was his ability to get what you would expect most years. But the dude isn't midas, when he has been on a bad club they were bad and we are a bad club so the results with him back there wouldn't be much different in my opinion.

Holland has a great legacy regardless of this rebuild. It could be a Lake Erie sized fire for a decade and his status is in good standing just like Bill Torrey.

I won't hold my breath on you acknowledging his HHOF credentials and for you to stop pretending his legacy isn't already delivered. It is frankly absurd that you would even put it that way. What is at stake is if he turns it around for a third core cup run with the same team he is the greatest GM in league history. His place in the Top 10 all-time is pretty safe.

 

[Redder Winger]

That is basically our one outlier season down the stretch with Babcock who had significant trouble with special teams in his ending years, which is part of the reason he started looking for new assistants. Also him and that assistant managed to finish dead last during their stealth tank next season in Toronto. The Leafs numbers indicated they would be a big fade team in the second half and they were.

Yes Babcock took the Ducks on a miracle run, yes the year they got into the playoffs and crushed by Boston was overachieving. 2006 was an unmitigated disaster as was the Nashville series where Trotz coached circles around him. Both of those teams had no business going out before the Conference finals. So he has overachieved a few years and underachieved a few years. What I was complementing him on was his ability to get what you would expect most years. But the dude isn't midas, when he has been on a bad club they were bad and we are a bad club so the results with him back there wouldn't be much different in my opinion.

Holland has a great legacy regardless of this rebuild. It could be a Lake Erie sized fire for a decade and his status is in good standing just like Bill Torrey.

I won't hold my breath on you acknowledging his HHOF credentials and for you to stop pretending his legacy isn't already delivered. It is frankly absurd that you would even put it that way. What is at stake is if he turns it around for a third core cup run with the same team he is the greatest GM in league history. His place in the Top 10 all-time is pretty safe.

What the f*** are you even going on about TZE?
I've already said, right here in this thread, that Holland's legacy was set long ago. He could manage losing teams for the next 10 years and it wouldn't sully is legacy at all
But no, just pretend I didn't say that so you can call my posts "absurd."
Jesus.

As for Babcock, he took an upstart Ducks to the finals.
He won the cup with Detroit, made the finals once and final 4 once.
He's won Olympic gold twice.
He's the only triple gold winning coach.
He's won the WJC, the WC, Olympics and the Cup.

He's got 643 wins - which puts him at 12th overall.
There's a good chance he finishes in the top 7 all time - or better. He'll pass Quinn, Irvin and Arbor.

And you're assessment is that he's good enough to help a team be as good as they should be?

And you're going to say my assessment is absurd?

And look - you know me, I wanted Babcock GONE. He was done in Detroit. He had to go.
But seriously, he's worlds better than Jeff loser Blashill.

 

[kliq]

The Leafs traded Phaneuf, Polak, Matthias, Winnik and their starter, Reimer.
They were obviously in tank mode.
Now, by the deadline, the team had already tanked.
Reily and Gardener are terrible defensive players


By the way, I was wrong earlier. I'd clicked on the wrong season.
On Jan. 1, Toronto was in 7th in the division at 14-15-7.

15-16
Nov 1 - 1-7-2 - last place
Dec. 1 - 8-11-5 Last place
Jan. 1 - 14-15-7 - 7th (in the division)
Feb. 1 - 17-22-9 last place
March 1 - 21-30-10 last place
Final 29-42-11 - last place

So looking back, and trying to piece together my memory of that season, I'd say that in November and December, Toronto went 13-8-5, is about when I began thinking Toronto could potentially make some noise in what was a pretty awful division.

Reimer played in a lot of games, but Bernier was considered the starter. I'm guessing you are looking at GP which likely appears 50/50, but if memory serves me right, Bernier was hurt quite often.

I am not arguing that didn't go into re-build mode, in addition to trading Phaneuf, Polak, Matthias, Winnik and Reimer they also traded Nick Spaling, and injury wise by the end of the season they were missing JVR, Lupol, Holland, Michalek, Hunwick, Soshnikov, Robidas and Loov.

My point is simply, they did as bad as they did because of re-building AND injuries. Had they been healthy, they still suck, but possibly not dead last in the league.

I would take Reily and Gardener over what we have any day.