Hypothetical optimistic legacies of Ken, Blash

[TheOtherOne]

I am intensely curious about hypothetical scenarios. Some or many of you will probably find them a waste of time. That's fine. You don't have to participate if you don't want to.

My premise is that we COULD be competing in ECF or SCF in 3 years. I don't really want to argue the probabilities. Larkin, Mantha, AA, Hronek, whoever, could develop better than expected. We could have a Marchand surprise. A late-rounder from this year or last year could be the next Datsyuk. We could trade for Tavares or the next Tavares or whoever. Some goalie we've never heard of could stand on his head for a Quick-like season and playoffs. Who the f*** knows. If things start to click in a couple areas maybe it starts a domino effect and everyone starts smelling the Cup and kicking it up some notches all around.

Maybe these things are all long-shots, but even if you think it's a one in a million chance, for the purposes of this thread you have to admit that it COULD happen.

My question, then, is what future discussion boards are saying about Holland and Blash. And what happens if they thumb through the archives of 2018's discussions.

Was Holland still a train wreck through '16-'18 or however long? Was he smartly tanking, maybe while making a few bad moves? Did he totally luck into a successful rebuild? If he wins one more Cup before he retires, is he suddenly one of the best GMs around? Or did he stumble into it like Mr. Magoo?

Blash is harder to discuss because he's still new. I don't really know what to add there, but feel free to contribute on whatever. If you sincerely think we absolutely CANNOT compete while he's around, that's a valid answer too. But who knows, maybe he finds a nice groove while the team improves around him.

What are our opinions of the forum-goers of 2018? Were they naively oblivious of the success of the rebuild they were in the middle of? Or do you still agree with their points, despite them becoming irrelevant in a few short years' time?

Anyway I'm interested in your thoughts, so talk about whatever you want.

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[ArGarBarGar]

Holland bumbled through the process to get to where we are now, spending close to or at the cap for the team to be a first round gimme or miss the playoffs entirely.

He has shown the capability to make decent moves in recent seasons, but he has to do a better job with roster management and with the scouting department, because we haven't really developed any bonafide stars, yet (Larkin isn't quite there but is the closest to becoming one). The jury is still out on the ones who are poised to come up in the next couple years.

If Holland is to turn the team around, it has to be with patient moves and accepting a couple more losing seasons along the way. I don't think just getting one superstar defenseman will fix the team's defensive issues, and the forward core is still not all that great. Not to mention the question of what we do for future goaltending with Howard in his 30s and Mrazek proving to be a dud not worth keeping.

 

[njx9]

Was Holland still a train wreck through '16-'18 or however long? Was he smartly tanking, maybe while making a few bad moves? Did he totally luck into a successful rebuild? If he wins one more Cup before he retires, is he suddenly one of the best GMs around? Or did he stumble into it like Mr. Magoo?

I think it depends on what happens the following seasons. If the team goes from bottom 5 to Cup back to bottom 5 (or, honestly, back to perennial first round out), then I think "luck" is the clear, overwhelming answer.

That said, if, in your hypothetical world, all of those players are good enough to take the team back to contention (let alone a win), I think it would clearly demonstrate that Holland is a much better GM than some (including me!) have given him credit for and would definitely cement his legacy.

 

[raymond23]

I doubt his ability to build a winning team. His pro scouting might have the worst track record in the league this past decade. He has no ability to locate talent. If we are successful that soon with Kenny still on board I will he very surprised. Anything is possible though.

Who knows with Blash. It's hard to judge a coaches ability when his most consistent defenseman is Jonathan Ericsson. He could go somewhere and light it up.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Success has a way of washing away a lot of bad memories people have, also few people will admit to the opinions they currently hold if they turn out to be wrong. I.e. if Rasmussen or Cholowski turn into great players you won't hear anyone confessing how much they criticized Holland for not taking Chychrun and Vilardi. If just a few late round picks between '14 and '17 turn into good players no one will want to have their posts on Wright's/Holland's drafting dug up. History will be rewritten and many, many will change their tune to something more like "I always knew Holland was a good GM and Wings were gonna find talent in the draft" and "The talent of [currently criticized prospect] was always obvious!".

Blashill's legacy I doubt will be great with the Wings though. I see him going elsewhere and a new coach coming in to head the "upturn" phase of the rebuild. But Holland's legacy will depend a lot on how the next few years go. If his picks lead the charge towards newfound success, he will cement his legacy and again, the bad years will be forgotten and forgiven.

 

[Frk It]

Holland’s legacy will be good no matter what. I would prefer a new GM, but I have 0 desire to try and belittle what he accomplished during the good years.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think it depends on what happens the following seasons. If the team goes from bottom 5 to Cup back to bottom 5 (or, honestly, back to perennial first round out), then I think "luck" is the clear, overwhelming answer.

That said, if, in your hypothetical world, all of those players are good enough to take the team back to contention (let alone a win), I think it would clearly demonstrate that Holland is a much better GM than some (including me!) have given him credit for and would definitely cement his legacy.

His legacy is cemented. He will forever be remembered as one of the best GMs in history. If he were to take this Wings team and have them in the Cup Finals in 3 years, he would cement his legacy as the best GM of all time. Three different runs of Cup level success with three different cores.

 

[Ezekial]

If Holland turns this around there is no doubt people will shrug off our current woes while looking back through the annals of time.

He tried to keep another core together to transition into the new, failed, and proceeded to rebuild a contender again?
How could neutral people view that negatively if he succeeds?
If it's "he got lucky" then there are no good GMs, just lucky ones.

 

[njx9]

His legacy is cemented. He will forever be remembered as one of the best GMs in history. If he were to take this Wings team and have them in the Cup Finals in 3 years, he would cement his legacy as the best GM of all time. Three different runs of Cup level success with three different cores.

I disagree. If he farts around while the team descends back to Dead Wings level of play for the next decade+, his legacy will be very, very different than it was in 2008-9.

If he pulls the team out of it's current nose dive and wins another Cup, then I'll be surprised if you can find many people who would argue that he's not the best, period.

 

[Frk It]

Success has a way of washing away a lot of bad memories people have, also few people will admit to the opinions they currently hold if they turn out to be wrong. I.e. if Rasmussen or Cholowski turn into great players you won't hear anyone confessing how much they criticized Holland for not taking Chychrun and Vilardi. If just a few late round picks between '14 and '17 turn into good players no one will want to have their posts on Wright's/Holland's drafting dug up. History will be rewritten and many, many will change their tune to something more like "I always knew Holland was a good GM and Wings were gonna find talent in the draft" and "The talent of [currently criticized prospect] was always obvious!".

We’ve all been wrong. Ironically, people will probably be less willing to admit they were wrong when we are pre-emptively throwing shade like this ^

 

[Heaton]

Success has a way of washing away a lot of bad memories people have, also few people will admit to the opinions they currently hold if they turn out to be wrong. I.e. if Rasmussen or Cholowski turn into great players you won't hear anyone confessing how much they criticized Holland for not taking Chychrun and Vilardi. If just a few late round picks between '14 and '17 turn into good players no one will want to have their posts on Wright's/Holland's drafting dug up. History will be rewritten and many, many will change their tune to something more like "I always knew Holland was a good GM and Wings were gonna find talent in the draft" and "The talent of [currently criticized prospect] was always obvious!".

Of course not, but that's too bad if anyone has a problem with it. Let me know when this happens and I'll be the first to admit that Holland was right.

But on the other hand, what if he's wrong? This town has a tendency to be overly loyal to a fault and it has been a detriment to franchises and the fan bases (Millen for the Lions, Joe Dumars lasted too long with the Pistons, the Tigers had multiple issues due to loyalty). There's a balance between loyalty and what's right for the team and fans, this city has a reputation to be loyal to a fault.

 

[Winger98]

I agree with Argarbargar's description of Holland having bumbled his way to this point over the last few years, and I think finishing with the record we have this year is another indicator of Holland's failure at what he was actually attempting. That said, I agree with Pavel's Dog's assertion that if the Wings turn things around in short order that everyone will forget how much of a mess these past few years have been.

In the end, I think Holland will be extraordinarily lucky if this team turns it around to the point of being a consistent threat for a deep playoff run within the next few years. He's lucky Blashill gets so little out of this flawed roster, that the draft lottery could reward him regardless of where the team finishes, etc. If we finish with the fifth or sixth worst record but manage to pick first or second, that's just dumb luck. But it won't be remembered as that if the team turns it around.

 

[Ezekial]

Good god. People inventing all these strawmen to ***** about Holland's critics.
The entire idea for this thread is garbage.

Talk about inventing strawmen to someone else

Unless you want to tell me how much I think Cleary will impact our young guys again.

Welcome to how people receive your threads.

 

[DetroitRed]

My alternate universe Ken Holland is economical and made of pure silver.

 

[Redder Winger]

Ken Holland's legacy is set.
Look around the NHL.
Patrick Roy's legacy is cemented. He could coach 20 years and never make the playoffs, and he's Patrick Roy.
Steve Yzerman might never win a Stanley Cup as an executive. It doesn't tarnish his legacy a bit.

When future Hall of Famer Vinny Lecavalier is inducted, nobody's going to cut him down for his last few years in Philly and LA.

It's the same with Holland.
His legacy is set.
He can add to it. But unless he goes on a murder spree, he's not going to detract from it.

 

[Red Stanley]

I'm sure the vast majority of people will be happy if things go well in the next few years, but as far as Holland is concerned I don't see the tone changing too much. He's become too polarizing for objective debate, even if we were informed enough to constructively debate the subject in the first place.

 

[Lampedampe]

I'm quite optimistic in general, but the rebuild lenght is pretty much decided on wheher or not guys like Cholo, Hronek and Lindström pans out to become solid NHLers, and by that I mean at least 2 of them has to become top-4 defensemen. I don't mean that to be all doom and gloom but since defensemen take much longer to develop and if the defensemen that we have in the system now fails then the rebuild will take very long, and if it takes too long guys like Mantha, AA, bert and possibly even Larkin will be past their prime before the Wings have a good enough defense to become competative again.

The age gap between the currently promising forwards can't be too big between the young defensemen, and that's what worries me the most.

However if they do pan out then our roster actually look promising, all it needs is a insertion of Elite talent. Just test it out yourself and add a current elite Center and a elite defenseman into our projected line-up 2020 (sticking to the premise that guys like Cholo and Hronek actually pan out), and you'll see that roster would be a very competative one with great depth.

If guys like Cholo and Hronek struggle then I believe the best choice would be to trade Mantha and AA asap and simply sit tight because we're likely gonna be in for a long one. So yeah in my opinion Holland better pray to the hockey gods that current defensemen prospects pan out because otherwise he probably wont have time to finish the rebuild.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If Holland rebuilds this team into a championship team he is the greatest GM in the history of the league. To build three different championship windows with one franchise is ridiculous. If not he remain a HHOF builder that we should be grateful to for so many good years and a top 10 all-time GM.

He has a great mind for the game, this will be his biggest test.

 

[Konnan511]

Holland is one of the best GMs of all-time regardless of what he does from here out. If he gets us to the playoffs with some success in the next couple of years, he'll be the greatest of all-time.

 

[newfy]

I do sometimes kinda feel bad for Blashill. He took over a roster that the "best coach in hockey" Mike Babcock could do nothing with and had to sit around and coach as it progressively got worse because he was given nothing to work with. Now I definitely dont agree with all his coaching methods but I do sometimes wonder what he could do with a legit roster. No matter what coaching decisions he makes, this team was still gonna be shit. I dont think Mike Babcock was on track to be better than they are now if he was still coaching

Holland I dont know what to think. I actually like his philosophy of keeping a competitive team and not tanking ala th Oil or Sabres and building a losing culture. Thats gotten those teams nowhere. And once the script from ownership flipped from just make playoffs at all costs because of the streak to rebuild... Holland has actually done a really good job for only being in his second year of missing playoffs. Thata Tatar trade is looking like a steal for the wings right now and we have a tonne of draft picks the next couple of years with some good young players already.

On the other hand, he is way to loyal to players who dont deserve it, hands out some of the worst contracts in the league and way too many NTC/NMCs. He also hasnt really developed an impact dman in a very long time but he also hasnt gotten to use many high picks on one either. And even if he is successful in rebuilding hes not going to be GM of the team while theyre good. By the time hes done rebuilding and theyre in their cup window hell be pushing 70. I want a new GM but its been interesting to see how Holland has handled things since the streak pressure has been gone from ownership.

 

[Redder Winger]

I do sometimes kinda feel bad for Blashill. He took over a roster that the "best coach in hockey" Mike Babcock could do nothing with and had to sit around and coach as it progressively got worse because he was given nothing to work with. Now I definitely dont agree with all his coaching methods but I do sometimes wonder what he could do with a legit roster. No matter what coaching decisions he makes, this team was still gonna be ****. I dont think Mike Babcock was on track to be better than they are now if he was still coaching

Holland I dont know what to think. I actually like his philosophy of keeping a competitive team and not tanking ala th Oil or Sabres and building a losing culture. Thats gotten those teams nowhere. And once the script from ownership flipped from just make playoffs at all costs because of the streak to rebuild... Holland has actually done a really good job for only being in his second year of missing playoffs. Thata Tatar trade is looking like a steal for the wings right now and we have a tonne of draft picks the next couple of years with some good young players already.

On the other hand, he is way to loyal to players who dont deserve it, hands out some of the worst contracts in the league and way too many NTC/NMCs. He also hasnt really developed an impact dman in a very long time but he also hasnt gotten to use many high picks on one either. And even if he is successful in rebuilding hes not going to be GM of the team while theyre good. By the time hes done rebuilding and theyre in their cup window hell be pushing 70. I want a new GM but its been interesting to see how Holland has handled things since the streak pressure has been gone from ownership.

Babcock is one of the best coaches in hockey.
But even though he'd sort of lost his team and his message had gone stale, and it was time for him to find a new place, he got the team in the playoffs.

 

[newfy]

Babcock is one of the best coaches in hockey.
But even though he'd sort of lost his team and his message had gone stale, and it was time for him to find a new place, he got the team in the playoffs.

He got them to the playoffs as the last wild card and a team that was 2 points from missing playoffs hist last 2 seasons. That was with Datsyuk being a point per game player still, Z being a 70ish point player but most importantly Kronwall was still a number one dman. They had a lot of injuries one year sure, but the depth just had to carry the load until 2 legit first liners and a number 1 dman were back in the line up. The teams Blashill have had are basically the depth that was supposed to play 3rd and maybe 2nd line for Babcock as the best players on the team with Kronwall's body failing big time.

Babcock could barely squeak into playoffs with a similar roster as this one except it had a much better version of Z and Kronwall plus the best of the group in Datsyuk still being a top 5-10 player. I dont really like Blash and hes made some dumb decisions but lets not pretend Babcock could get this wings roster into the playoffs when he could barely do it back then

 

[Redder Winger]

I bet Babcock, as a new coach, could make this team close to a playoff team.
His first year in Toronto, he had Toronto flirting dangerously with a playoff spot until they tanked (obviously intentionally.)

Whatever you want to say about Zetterberg, last year was one of his most productive years since his heyday.

The NHL is a one-goal league. A 5-6 point swing in the standings is huge.


Blashill's low-event hockey is designed to get to stay close enough to get loser points and mask how inept you really are.
It's not winning hockey. It's loser hockey.
It's bad for player development.
It's bad for fans.
And over the course of a season, it's exposed for what it really is.

 

[Goalie guy]

I won't say Holland is or was one of the best GM's ever. He was in the right place at the right time with the right people around him. I don't think it is any secret I did not want him back, but we have him so now we live or die with him. All we can do is see what he does with higher picks. I do how ever think everyone who thinks we will have a competitive team in 4 or 5 years are going to be very let down the kids we have now will be on the down swing by the time we are good again.

 

[Flowah]

I'm sure the vast majority of people will be happy if things go well in the next few years, but as far as Holland is concerned I don't see the tone changing too much. He's become too polarizing for objective debate, even if we were informed enough to constructively debate the subject in the first place.

I've been vocally against Holland for years now but I will be absolutely happy with his performance given the following

1. No vet signings over 1 year. Only signed in order to flip at the TDL. Obviously if you can snag Karlsson go for it I guess though I'm only like 60% in favor of that.
2. Get a coach, or make the coach, focus on development, not winning. That means not using Z 20+ minutes a night. That might help us squeak out wins but it doesn't help the kids.
3. Embrace the tank for at least the next 2 seasons (after this one)
4. Go for skill and speed at the draft, not size. I see skill player after skill player making it work in the league, despite being tiny. I see way fewer big guys without skill making a difference. Unless there are some big rules changes in the works it's time to recognize the changes in the way the game is played and draft accordingly.

I don't think I'm asking for too much. He's already sort of started on some of it. Just need him to commit. I think most people against Holland would be happy with him if he did that stuff.