Hypothetical head to head race for Ross, at peak optimal conditions. Lemieux vs Gretzky - who wins?

[Voight]

I think out of ten times Gretzky would probably lead in points 7 or 8 seasons. He was better than Lemieux. Lemieux would definitely have the talent to win 3 of them and challenge in most if not all of them. But end of the day Gretzky would use that competitive edge and decide he wanted to win it

This is a fair way to say it.

 

[bobholly39]

I think out of ten times Gretzky would probably lead in points 7 or 8 seasons. He was better than Lemieux. Lemieux would definitely have the talent to win 3 of them and challenge in most if not all of them. But end of the day Gretzky would use that competitive edge and decide he wanted to win it

I definitely agree with this. Gretzky proved he could be consistent year to year at his peak - we never got to see that top end consistency with Lemieux, we can only speculate.

Still though - poll is about just one season - where both players are purposefully gunning for the ross. Who wants it more, and whose more capable of scoring higher?

 

[bobholly39]

I love it when someone else writes what I was going to say.

So no, still not the most dominant cause Gretzky did it, not only first, but better.

Gretzky’s 215 in 80 is still more dominant than the 160 in 60 BTW. PPG Gretzky edges Lemieux. I’ll admit it’s close, but Gretzky comes ahead, yet again.

Why do you keep claiming things like Gretzky never could when he clearly did?

You have to adjust for season though and context.

No one here thinks to say Thornton >>> Ovechkin because he outscored him by ~15 points a few years apart.

I don't claim to have the perfect method of adjusting, because i dont. But 215 in one season and 199 in another season probably merits some adjustment, one way or another.

They're definitely close

 

[bobbyking]

didnt 99 pace for 230 points one year after missing 10 or so games. Mario would have a very tough time here

 

[bobholly39]

I agree that Lemieux would have scored a 1000 goals if you gave him a healthy career. But if we to play the what if game with Lemieux, then we must also do the same for Gretzky. So let's begin: What if Gretzky had not missed most of the lockout season in 1995? And more importantly, what if he had not suffered the career threatening herniated disc which stemmed from the Gary Suter 1991 Canada Cup hit? His point production plummeted from 163 points to 120 points from one season to the next, and never recovered. He was at a 2+ PPG and dropped to 1.6 (or less) for the rest of his career. His goal scoring plummeted as well. Gone were the 40-50 goal seasons. Gone was the extra gear, which he used to employ every shift. Gone was the crazy lateral movement at top speed. Gone was the ability to traverse in the danger zones without fear of getting hit. Gone was the velocity of his slap shot and what was left of his wrist shot. He became even more a perimeter player after the hit. Then half a season missed of the 1993 season with the herniated disc and half a season missed in 1995 with the lockout. Had it not been for the missed games and lowered goal and point production, Gretzky would have hit 1000+ goals and well over 3000 points (around 3300 regular season points).

As for Gretzky's so called "perfect storm" or 92 goals, his 92 goals (alone) were enough to give him the 2nd most points on his team that season. Kurri scored around 30 goals. Coffey less than that. Messier was not a star either, and Gretzky was playing with the likes of BJ McDonald and Brett Callighan. In other words, not so perfect a storm. Gretzky actually had a better goal scoring season in 1984 when his teammates improved. He scored 87 goals in only 74 games (a better GPG average than his 92 goal season). So Wayne has more 70 goal seasons than Mario (4 vs 2), more 80 goal seasons than Mario (2 vs 1), and the only one with a 90 goal season.... If you want to talk about GPG average, then let's look at Wayne's first 915 games (the same number of games Mario played), and Wayne comes out on top there, too....

Well to clarify when I said perfect storm i wasn't implying optimal scoring conditions. 1982 wasn't it for Gretzky, nor was 1989 for Lemieux - both had still rather weak teams. I meant more of a 'perfect storm' of a season in terms of how well he did. That's why this OP is about optimal conditions.

I agree with Lemieux doing 1000+ career goals in a healthy career, absolutely.
Gretzky....unsure. Obviously if you take his mid-career pace he was pacing at some point for 1200+ goals - i'm just not sure how much injuries impacted his play in the 1990s. Gretzky was also 31 years old in 1991, and you're not exactly supposed to keep scoring 160+ points that late in your career. I've heard people say the Suter hit iself wasn't that bad, it was a hit before that that caused issues.

Quite frankly - I always found it disappointing how Gretzky scored less goals later on in his career. I say Lemieux could have done 1000+ because he seemed to maintain his goal-scoring touch at a later age. But yes - if without injury you think Gretzky ages better as a goal-scorer - he could easily score more goals too. I still say Lemieux beats him out here. Career, definitely. Peak? Not necessarily - 92 was truly magical. Lemieux probably approaches that in 1993, and maybe he has some other high scoring goal-seasons in 90, 91, 92 or 94 if he was playing/healthy, but no guarantee he'd ever top his own 85 goals in a season - but he likely can aim for it.

 

[bobholly39]

didnt 99 pace for 230 points one year after missing 10 or so games. Mario would have a very tough time here

In 1993, Lemieux paced for 224 points in a full season (84 games).
in 1984 Gretzky paced for 222 points in a full season (80 games - in 84 games it's 232).

The thing to keep in mind though - that's 9 years a part. Both high scoring season - but some sort of adjustment/context should be applied. It's not exactly apples to apples.

What would 93' version Lemieux have scored if he played in 84, and vise versa?

 

[tazzy19]

didnt 99 pace for 230 points one year after missing 10 or so games. Mario would have a very tough time here

Gretzky was on pace for 240 points (in an 80 game season) before he got injured for 6 games in game 52 of the 1983/84 season. Statistically speaking, this is more impressive than Lemieux's 160 in 60. He had 153 points in 51 (consecutive) games for exactly 3 PPG. He ended up with 175 points in his first 60 games (also more impressive). I believe had he not missed those 6 games, it would have been the highest point season of all time (likely around 230 points, yes).

 

[tazzy19]

In 1993, Lemieux paced for 224 points in a full season (84 games).
in 1984 Gretzky paced for 222 points in a full season (80 games - in 84 games it's 232).

The thing to keep in mind though - that's 9 years a part. Both high scoring season - but some sort of adjustment/context should be applied. It's not exactly apples to apples.

What would 93' version Lemieux have scored if he played in 84, and vise versa?

True, the Penguins had a lot more power play opportunities than the Oilers did. Mario relied on those ridiculous amounts of PPO to get a big chunk of his points, whereas Gretzky always outscored him at even strength. Imagine if the Oilers had the same number of PP opportunities? A lot of people don't realize that Gretzky actually outscored Lemieux at even strength in 1988/89 when Lemieux had his 199 point season. It was because of all the extra PPOs.

 

[Iapyi]

It's almost at the point where this silly narrative about Lemieux being better then Gretzky is just going to hurt his legacy.

Gretzky was the out and out best player ever. The Lemieuxites need to accept this. Their efforts to denigrate Gretzky really is just embarrassing themselves.

It's getting to the point of just being straight up annoying. It's almost like they think they can win by attrition.

 

[biotk]

A lot of people don't realize that Gretzky actually outscored Lemieux at even strength in 1988/89 when Lemieux had his 199 point season.

A lot of people probably don't realize that because it is not true.

 

[Voight]

I definitely agree with this. Gretzky proved he could be consistent year to year at his peak - we never got to see that top end consistency with Lemieux, we can only speculate.

Still though - poll is about just one season - where both players are purposefully gunning for the ross. Who wants it more, and whose more capable of scoring higher?

The guy who scored 215.

It's almost at the point where this silly narrative about Lemieux being better then Gretzky is just going to hurt his legacy.

Gretzky was the out and out best player ever. The Lemieuxites need to accept this. Their efforts to denigrate Gretzky really is just embarrassing themselves.

It's getting to the point of just being straight up annoying. It's almost like they think they can win by attrition.

Thing is, Gretzky is so far ahead in pretty much every single metric. Its not like Lemieux has 1 less scoring title or 1 less MVP trophy or is 200 points behind him. Gretz laps the field and then some.

 

[tazzy19]

A lot of people probably don't realize that because it is not true.

I just looked at the stats and it turns out you are correct. It was 120 even strength points for Lemieux vs 115 for Gretzky by season's end. I saw a comparison a long time ago, and was going by memory. The comparison reviewed how Gretzky was actually neck and neck with Lemieux and even outscoring him at even strength (and not just even strength as I remember) most of that season, but I guess that wasn't for the entire season. Regardless, Lemieux scored the 2nd most power play points ever that season (79 PPP) and also two other seasons with 80 PPP (the most ever). This is what propelled him to a 199 point season. Had Gretzky had that many power play opportunities, it would have been Gretzky with another 200 point season quite likely.... Here are the final stats for 1988/89:

1988-89 NHL Skater Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Lemieux has the top 4 most power play point seasons ever. Talk about feasting on the power play!

Who Has The Most Power Play Points In A Season | StatMuse

 

[tazzy19]

Well to clarify when I said perfect storm i wasn't implying optimal scoring conditions. 1982 wasn't it for Gretzky, nor was 1989 for Lemieux - both had still rather weak teams. I meant more of a 'perfect storm' of a season in terms of how well he did. That's why this OP is about optimal conditions.

I agree with Lemieux doing 1000+ career goals in a healthy career, absolutely.
Gretzky....unsure. Obviously if you take his mid-career pace he was pacing at some point for 1200+ goals - i'm just not sure how much injuries impacted his play in the 1990s. Gretzky was also 31 years old in 1991, and you're not exactly supposed to keep scoring 160+ points that late in your career. I've heard people say the Suter hit iself wasn't that bad, it was a hit before that that caused issues.

Quite frankly - I always found it disappointing how Gretzky scored less goals later on in his career. I say Lemieux could have done 1000+ because he seemed to maintain his goal-scoring touch at a later age. But yes - if without injury you think Gretzky ages better as a goal-scorer - he could easily score more goals too. I still say Lemieux beats him out here. Career, definitely. Peak? Not necessarily - 92 was truly magical. Lemieux probably approaches that in 1993, and maybe he has some other high scoring goal-seasons in 90, 91, 92 or 94 if he was playing/healthy, but no guarantee he'd ever top his own 85 goals in a season - but he likely can aim for it.

That's a fair assessment, and I can definitely see where you're coming from, and might actually agree. I really don't see Mario topping his own 85 goals, simply because he was playing at his very limit that season with soooo many PP opportunities. He had Paul Coffey too. This was the moment for him to do it. The final 3 games leading up to the 50th game when Gretzky scored 50 in 39, he scored 12 goals in those final 3 games to hit the 50th. 3 against Vancouver (if I remember), 4 against LA, then 5 against Philadelphia. That's the kind of thing Mario would have to have done to get 92 goals (or more). He was certainly capable of it, but like you said, it was a perfect storm in a sense (thank you for clarifying). It just so happens Gretzky had a lot of these perfect storms throughout his career. His 87 goal season might have been even more impressive, as I said earlier. The Oilers fans were so spoiled, that his 50 goals in 42 games that season didn't even make headlines. People were walking out the building when he did it, as they were when he broke his own recored for assists with 136 in 1986 (on route to 163 assists). The magic was simply expected at that point...

 

[authentic]

Lemieux peaked later. Unless you think Gretzky had declined by 27/28 the answer is Lemieux.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I love it when someone else writes what I was going to say.

So no, still not the most dominant cause Gretzky did it, not only first, but better.

Gretzky’s 215 in 80 is still more dominant than the 160 in 60 BTW. PPG Gretzky edges Lemieux. I’ll admit it’s close, but Gretzky comes ahead, yet again.

Why do you keep claiming things like Gretzky never could when he clearly did?

Different scoring environment seasons. This just in. Joe Thornton scored 114 points in 06-07 while ovechkin scorer his career high in 07-08 with 112. Thornton second best season> peak ovechkin. 114>112

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Different scoring environment seasons. This just in. Joe Thornton scored 114 points in 06-07 while ovechkin scorer his career high in 07-08 with 112. Thornton second best season> peak ovechkin. 114>112

Im not talking about Thornton or Ovechkin. Why are you? Stop using crappy strawmen.

Stay on topic. You said Gretzky couldn’t dominate like Lemieux, but he did. A couple times more too.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Im not talking about Thornton or Ovechkin. Why are you? Stop using crappy strawmen.

Stay on topic. You said Gretzky couldn’t dominate like Lemieux, but he did. A couple times more too.

Your just using raw numbers with no context

 

[bobholly39]

Lemieux peaked later. Unless you think Gretzky had declined by 27/28 the answer is Lemieux.

Lemieux peaked later. Any Gretzky fans who say "look how much better Gretzky was at age 21 than Lemieux at age 21" are simply arguing in bad faith - as that's not peak to peak.

However - the opposite is also true. Gretzky was not at his peak anymore at age 27. So in 1989, it wasn't exactly apples to apples either.

To truly determine whose best you have to compare Lemieux in 89 or 93 to some of Gretzky's best years - and those aren't in LA.

Im not talking about Thornton or Ovechkin. Why are you? Stop using crappy strawmen.

Stay on topic. You said Gretzky couldn’t dominate like Lemieux, but he did. A couple times more too.

His response is very simple and accurate. You can't compare raw statistics 6-9 years apart with 0 context and adjustment. Just like Thornton in 2007 probably isn't better than Ovi in 2008 due to more points - you can't just assume all those Gretzky years are better than Lemieux due to raw points, especially since it's so many years apart.

Of course - it may still be better. All i'm saying - you have to account for different season scoring environment when comparing raw stats

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Their peak full seasons
215 points in 80 2.69 ppg
199 in 76 2.62 ppg.

lets not act like they weren’t the same level. Gretzky fans are too much.

 

[Steven Toast]

Their peak full seasons
215 points in 80 2.69 ppg
199 in 76 2.62 ppg.

lets not act like they weren’t the same level. Gretzky fans are too much.

Or how about 205 in 74? 2.77 ppg.

Of the top 10 highest ppg seasons ever, 7 were Gretzky's, 3 were Lemieux's.

Of the top 15 highest ppg seasons ever, 10 were Gretzky's, 5 were Lemieux's.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Their peak full seasons
215 points in 80 2.69 ppg
199 in 76 2.62 ppg.

lets not act like they weren’t the same level. Gretzky fans are too much.

You’re the guy who keeps delusionally suggesting that Lemieux dominated when Gretzky never did.

You’re the one who is now changing from “Lemieux is better” to “Lemieux is on the same level” because you know you’ve lost this argument, again.

Oh well. Just another poll where Lemieux gets smoked by Gretzky.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Or how about 205 in 74? 2.77 ppg.

Of the top 10 highest ppg seasons ever, 7 were Gretzky's, 3 were Lemieux's.

Of the top 15 highest ppg seasons ever, 10 were Gretzky's, 5 were Lemieux's.

Kucherov 128
Thornton 125

looks like they both peak well ahead of ov/Malkin with 112/113

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Or how about 205 in 74? 2.77 ppg.

Of the top 10 highest ppg seasons ever, 7 were Gretzky's, 3 were Lemieux's.

Of the top 15 highest ppg seasons ever, 10 were Gretzky's, 5 were Lemieux's.

I’ll take a 2.67 ppg while fighting cancer in 92-93 over 2.77 on in the early 80’s

 

[Steven Toast]

I’ll take a 2.67 ppg while fighting cancer in 92-93 over 2.77 on in the early 80’s

And all but the Pens homers will take Gretzky lol.

I'll take 4 200 point seasons, and 7 of the top 10 seasons ever to 3 of the top 10.

Another poster asked, and I will repeat. Explain how Lemieux was better, be refrain from talk of injuries/health and what ifs. Also don't compare Lemieux's best year to Gretzky's 7th best. I need some entertainment for my lazy sunday.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

I think Gretzky has the edge. He had some galaxybrain hockey IQ.