Hypothetical head to head race for Ross, at peak optimal conditions. Lemieux vs Gretzky - who wins?

[slapKing]

Going with Gretzky.

 

[Voight]

why is there a f***ing pole every other day about Lemieux and Gretzky in a scoring race. Seems to be the same 4 or 5 individuals who are scratching and clawing for some Validation from the Gretzky crowd. Lemieux was unbeleivable... but Gretzky was god on skates so he edges Lemieux everytime peak to peak.

It really amazes me at times, I mean its not like the guy scored 200 points four times, owns 50+ records or re-wrote the history books

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzky had 3+18 and Lemieux had 11+7, so they were quite close in stats. And this wasn't quite Lemieux's prime yet, that would start the next season.

Lol where is the but goals crowd now. Certainly @Midnight Judges will say Lemieux>Gretzky in the 87 Canada cup.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Again, I'm not convinced that Mario wasn't at his best by the round robin portion of the 1987 Canada Cup. There's a reason why most hockey experts have dubbed the 1987 Canada Cup as Mario Lemieux's "Coming out Party". He won the Art Ross and Hart Trophy that very same season. I agree he was not at his best in the 1986/87 NHL season prior, but I think by 1987/88 (starting with the Canada Cup), he was just as good as he was in 1988/89. Remember, he was without Coffey for half of 1987/88, whom he had in the Canada Cup and in 1988/89. Also remember, he didn't receive nearly as many power play opportunities has he did in 1988/89. If you threw Coffey on the 1987/88 Penguins for the entire season, and gave them all the power play minutes they got in 1988/89 (the 88/89 Penguins received a ridiculous amount of PP opportunities), you mean to tell me he doesn't score an extra 30 points? I think he does, or at least comes extremely close with Coffey.

And again, if you wish to say that neither player was at their peaks, that's fair, but it's pretty much splitting hairs at that point. At the very least, they were on equal footing in terms of their respective peaks (even if you state Mario wasn't quite there yet, you would have to concede that Wayne was no longer quite there either). And Gretzky edged out Lemieux in a context where you couldn't get more equal in any possible world: Same team, same number of games, same competition.

He had 3 more damn points in 11 gp. Anything could happened between them in 80

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Nah Lemieux had a very noticeable increase in skating speed between 87/88 and 88/89 seasons. Granted part of it was he took training seriously after the 87 Canada cup but still... His peak was 88-93.

Yup Lemieux looks slow and overweight in the Canada cup compared to 88/89

 

[tazzy19]

He had 3 more damn points in 11 gp. Anything could happened between them in 80

Actually, it was 9 games, so even more impressive. Gretzky had a 2.33 PPG average (187 points over 80 games) and Lemieux had a 2.0 PPG average (160 points over 80 games). Seems about right to me given the extremely high level of competition.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Depends on what decade. Wayne in the 80s but his goal scoring dropped so much once butterfly goalies took over it would be hard to see him passing Mario.

 

[snipes]

Gretzky. It’s always Gretzky. Always.

Don’t nickel and dime the Great One.

 

[Tutu to]

I truly believe Lemieux was the more talented player but Gretzky had 2 things going for him.

1. the ability to stay healthy.
2. I believe Gretzky’s peak was at a point when the quality of the league was a lot weaker.

That being said Gretzky is still the goat.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

No matter how many times you move the goal posts, the answer is and will always be Gretzky. It would be more interesting to debate the better goal scorer but Gretzky was very clearly the more dominant point producer regardless of health.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Actually, it was 9 games, so even more impressive. Gretzky had a 2.33 PPG average (187 points over 80 games) and Lemieux had a 2.0 PPG average (160 points over 80 games). Seems about right to me given the extremely high level of competition.

Lmao you being for real?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Did you not read the OP or are just being obtuse? Peak is not prime.

215 > 199

So Thornton has peaked higher than every non Kucherov player in the last 23 years?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

All I want, is for @Vegito to explain how Lemieux is the greater player, with one major caveat:

he can’t use what ifs, healthy/injuries.

If Lemieux is truly better, it can’t be hard. But it’s been nearly a day.

A 92-93 lemieux is the most dominant player in history. What he accomplished that season Gretzky never could. And you know it.

 

[bobholly39]

No matter how many times you move the goal posts, the answer is and will always be Gretzky. It would be more interesting to debate the better goal scorer but Gretzky was very clearly the more dominant point producer regardless of health.

Lemieux is definitely the better goal scorer. Gretzky may have had the more 'perfect storm' season with 92 goals - but i think if you put them on equal footing Lemieux is better, easily so.

Give Lemieux a somewhat healthy career and there's no way he doesnt top 894 career goals.

 

[Voight]

A 92-93 lemieux is the most dominant player in history. What he accomplished that season Gretzky never could. And you know it.

I can't wait to hear the thinking behind this one.

 

[tazzy19]

A 92-93 lemieux is the most dominant player in history. What he accomplished that season Gretzky never could. And you know it.

In 92/93, Lemieux scored 160 points in 60 games. In 1983/84, Gretzky scored 175 points in his first 60 games. I'm no math expert, but 175 points seems more dominant to me than a 160 points in the same number of games....

 

[tazzy19]

Lemieux is definitely the better goal scorer. Gretzky may have had the more 'perfect storm' season with 92 goals - but i think if you put them on equal footing Lemieux is better, easily so.

Give Lemieux a somewhat healthy career and there's no way he doesnt top 894 career goals.

I agree that Lemieux would have scored a 1000 goals if you gave him a healthy career. But if we to play the what if game with Lemieux, then we must also do the same for Gretzky. So let's begin: What if Gretzky had not missed most of the lockout season in 1995? And more importantly, what if he had not suffered the career threatening herniated disc which stemmed from the Gary Suter 1991 Canada Cup hit? His point production plummeted from 163 points to 120 points from one season to the next, and never recovered. He was at a 2+ PPG and dropped to 1.6 (or less) for the rest of his career. His goal scoring plummeted as well. Gone were the 40-50 goal seasons. Gone was the extra gear, which he used to employ every shift. Gone was the crazy lateral movement at top speed. Gone was the ability to traverse in the danger zones without fear of getting hit. Gone was the velocity of his slap shot and what was left of his wrist shot. He became even more a perimeter player after the hit. Then half a season missed of the 1993 season with the herniated disc and half a season missed in 1995 with the lockout. Had it not been for the missed games and lowered goal and point production, Gretzky would have hit 1000+ goals and well over 3000 points (around 3300 regular season points).

As for Gretzky's so called "perfect storm" or 92 goals, his 92 goals (alone) were enough to give him the 2nd most points on his team that season. Kurri scored around 30 goals. Coffey less than that. Messier was not a star either, and Gretzky was playing with the likes of BJ McDonald and Brett Callighan. In other words, not so perfect a storm. Gretzky actually had a better goal scoring season in 1984 when his teammates improved. He scored 87 goals in only 74 games (a better GPG average than his 92 goal season). So Wayne has more 70 goal seasons than Mario (4 vs 2), more 80 goal seasons than Mario (2 vs 1), and the only one with a 90 goal season.... If you want to talk about GPG average, then let's look at Wayne's first 915 games (the same number of games Mario played), and Wayne comes out on top there, too....

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

A 92-93 lemieux is the most dominant player in history. What he accomplished that season Gretzky never could. And you know it.

In 92/93, Lemieux scored 160 points in 60 games. In 1983/84, Gretzky scored 175 points in his first 60 games. I'm no math expert, but 175 points seems more dominant to me than a 160 points in the same number of games....

I love it when someone else writes what I was going to say.

So no, still not the most dominant cause Gretzky did it, not only first, but better.

Gretzky’s 215 in 80 is still more dominant than the 160 in 60 BTW. PPG Gretzky edges Lemieux. I’ll admit it’s close, but Gretzky comes ahead, yet again.

Why do you keep claiming things like Gretzky never could when he clearly did?

 

[tazzy19]

Lmao you being for real?

Very.

 

[tazzy19]

I love it when someone else writes what I was going to say.

So no, still not the most dominant cause Gretzky did it, not only first, but better.

Gretzky’s 215 in 80 is still more dominant than the 160 in 60 BTW. PPG Gretzky edges Lemieux. I’ll admit it’s close, but Gretzky comes ahead, yet again.

Why do you keep claiming things like Gretzky never could when he clearly did?

Exactly right. Here are the top 15 PPG seasons in history. Wayne has 10 of them!! It is interesting how it's ALL #66 and #99...

NHL Records

1
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1983-84
74
205
2.77

2
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1985-86
80
215
2.69

3
Mario Lemieux
Pittsburgh Penguins
1992-93
60
160
2.67

4
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1981-82
80
212
2.65

5
Mario Lemieux
Pittsburgh Penguins
1988-89
76
199
2.62

6
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1984-85
80
208
2.60

7
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1982-83
80
196
2.45

8
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1987-88
64
149
2.33

9
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1986-87
79
183
2.32

10
Mario Lemieux
Pittsburgh Penguins
1995-96
70
161
2.30

11
Mario Lemieux
Pittsburgh Penguins
1987-88
77
168
2.18

12
Wayne Gretzky
Los Angeles Kings
1988-89
78
168
2.15

13
Wayne Gretzky
Los Angeles Kings
1990-91
78
163
2.09

14
Mario Lemieux
Pittsburgh Penguins
1989-90
59
123
2.08

15
Wayne Gretzky
Edmonton Oilers
1980-81
80
164
2.05

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Gretzky not close.

 

[Varan]

I love it when someone else writes what I was going to say.

So no, still not the most dominant cause Gretzky did it, not only first, but better.

Gretzky’s 215 in 80 is still more dominant than the 160 in 60 BTW. PPG Gretzky edges Lemieux. I’ll admit it’s close, but Gretzky comes ahead, yet again.

Why do you keep claiming things like Gretzky never could when he clearly did?

Gretzky had (in my opinion) his best season in 83/84 where he had 208 points in 74 games. He was on pace for 227 points! He had a PPG of 2.77

It's not close

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Gretzky had (in my opinion) his best season in 83/84 where he had 208 points in 74 games. He was on pace for 227 points! He had a PPG of 2.77

It's not close

“Gretzky never dominated like that”

-@Vegito

 

[newfy]

I think out of ten times Gretzky would probably lead in points 7 or 8 seasons. He was better than Lemieux. Lemieux would definitely have the talent to win 3 of them and challenge in most if not all of them. But end of the day Gretzky would use that competitive edge and decide he wanted to win it

 

[Varan]

“Gretzky never dominated like that”

-@Vegito

LMAO where did he say that

/thread