Prospect Info: Hurricanes Prospect Info and Discussion - Part VII - Cliff Pu and other shit

[emptyNedder]

While not quite to RTB's skepticism, I too think Fox gets too much hype. My view is that he is likely equal or even a little behind Bean as a prospect. From my perspective if either turns out to be a PPQB and can add 40 points from the blueline, then the Canes will have an amazing D-corp.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I actually don't think he gets that hyped. He's producing very well at the level he is playing. He was considered a key piece to a big trade, presumably by a group that has identified so much other D talent in recent years. I think we all recognize that there may be a need to present our situation to him in a certain way to make sure he jumps on board. I haven't really seen that many people that think he's going to be a stud or anything to that effect. He, much like Bean, do represent a young, cheap answer to a skill set we've been missing for a while that could really boost our PP.

 

[Canes]

It's hard to get overly excited about any Ivy League prospect when the best player to come out of there somewhat recently is probably Alex Killorn. But to be fair, Shayne Gostisbehere came out of the ECAC (the league Fox plays in) and has been an offensive dynamo from the backend for the Flyers (maybe not this year so much though).

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

Yes - both him and Bean are decent chances of a legitimate PPQB. Both of them could pan out, one of them could pan out, or neither of them could. Until they cut their teeth in the NHL no one will know.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Am I the only one uncomfortable bending a knee to Fox? I mean I get the kid should be good, but potentially "guaranteeing" him a spot in the lineup in order to entice him to sign? **** off.

I can only assume you all have me blocked. I've been trying to trade Fox for two months because I'm totally uncomfortable with *everything* surrounding him. I'd go back and post links, but if you're blocking me, you won't see them this time, either.

 

[Canes]

I can only assume you all have me blocked. I've been trying to trade Fox for two months because I'm totally uncomfortable with *everything* surrounding him. I'd go back and post links, but if you're blocking me, you won't see them this time, either.

I'm not sure how much value he would have if he's being traded for the 2nd time in one year because of signability concerns. He would have to be the 2nd or 3rd best piece in a deal to get anything of worth, IMO.

 

[Vagrant]

fox is certainly the real deal. if you look at his offensive production relative to guys like quin hughes and cale makar, you'll appreciate his offensive upside even more. what he has done on the international stage is also highly encouraging for his long term upside. this is a prospect worth making allowances for. it also strikes me as interesting what our plan would be in the event we unload a rhd. they might suspect fox can do as the aforementioned mcavoy did and come in right away.

 

[GoldiFox]

I'm not sure how much value he would have if he's being traded for the 2nd time in one year because of signability concerns. He would have to be the 2nd or 3rd best piece in a deal to get anything of worth, IMO.

Fox could say "I'm not signing with Carolina, but I would sign with NYR". Then the Canes approach the Rangers and say "What will you pay to have this kid on your team next year?" and it is either acceptable or it isn't. Conceivably there could be a deal that would be beneficial to all parties. Canes get a nice piece, (Acquiring Team) gets an NHL ready top prospect, and Fox gets to play next year.

 

[Lempo]

I appreciate you posting that (I knew someone here would have CBA knowledge and be able to share). So it sounds like a player can "ask" for an NHL spot, but technically none can be guaranteed or agreed to without technically circumventing the CBA. I guess if a player signs "expecting" an NHL spot and isn't given it, all they can really do is request to be traded

Well, this is the legal view. In the real world the GMs and the agents need each other to scratch their back every now and then, so gentlemen's agreements if made may get more or less heeded, and obviously it's always a bad business to piss off your prospective super star from the get-go.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

There has literally been no development on this one way or the other since the trade. No matter what he would not have been signed at this point - at the earliest he will sign at the end of the Harvard season.

He has not said he does not want to sign - that is all speculation at this point. All he has said is that he wants to play in the NHL as soon as possible. If the he doesn't sign and is not traded the earliest he will be able to play not just in the NHL, but pro is 2020-2021

The writing is on the wall that TVR and one of the other RHD will be moved out this season.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

double post

 

[Lempo]

There has literally been no development on this one way or the other since the trade. No matter what he would not have been signed at this point - at the earliest he will sign at the end of the Harvard season.

He has not said he does not want to sign - that is all speculation at this point. All he has said is that he wants to play in the NHL as soon as possible. If the he doesn't sign and is not traded the earliest he will be able to play not just in the NHL, but pro is 2020-2021

The writing is on the wall that TVR and one of the other RHD will be moved out this season.

And that's a bit iffy too.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

And that's a bit iffy too.

Maybe I am wrong here, but the NHL/NCAA educational memo states:

Even if that drafted student-athlete were to leave school before his class graduates, his drafting club would hold rights to sign him until June 1 of the year four years after he was
drafted.

I do see that that differs from the info posted on NHL.com

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Imagine if we traded Faulk at the deadline. Hamilton on PP1 might make us better even if we don't get anything good in the trade.

 

[Lempo]

Maybe I am wrong here, but the NHL/NCAA educational memo states:



I do see that that differs from the info posted on NHL.com

I meant that season 2020-21 may never happen.

The quoted intel is solid, I believe. I don't know what's posted on NHL.com.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

I meant that season 2020-21 may never happen.

The quoted intel is solid, I believe. I don't know what's posted on NHL.com.

Ah thanks for the clarification. As an FYI NHL.com states that they can sign with a different team 30 days after leaving college.

 

[Canes]

Fox could say "I'm not signing with Carolina, but I would sign with NYR". Then the Canes approach the Rangers and say "What will you pay to have this kid on your team next year?" and it is either acceptable or it isn't. Conceivably there could be a deal that would be beneficial to all parties. Canes get a nice piece, (Acquiring Team) gets an NHL ready top prospect, and Fox gets to play next year.

I doubt the Rangers would pay much even if he came out and said that (publicly or not). They could just then wait it out another year if our asking price was too high.

 

[Lempo]

Ah thanks for the clarification. As an FYI NHL.com states that they can sign with a different team 30 days after leaving college.

That's the case after the 4th June 1st after the Draft has passed. "Whichever later", says the CBA. If he's a college boy at the Draft or becomes one during the year after, it's the four year route for him.

Except if the guy is still enrolled in college on Jan 1st in the year his class will graduate. In that case the Drafting team will have his rights until August 15th. (concerns mostly guys like Cotton who went to college after the Draft and has his 4th June 1st after the Draft pass at his 3rd college year's mark).

 

[SlavinAway]

Personally, I don't think Waddell would benefit from stating he was over 99% sure (can't remember the exact wording) that Fox would sign if it wasn't true.

It doesn't even make sense as far as posturing to other teams because the situation would be obvious if we all of the sudden call up the Rangers trying to trade Fox.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I'm not sure how much value he would have if he's being traded for the 2nd time in one year because of signability concerns. He would have to be the 2nd or 3rd best piece in a deal to get anything of worth, IMO.

I assume he'd have *huge* value to the Rangers, who have at least a half dozen players who may interest us. Who says no to a Fox-for-Hayes trade?

There has literally been no development on this one way or the other since the trade. No matter what he would not have been signed at this point - at the earliest he will sign at the end of the Harvard season.

He has not said he does not want to sign - that is all speculation at this point. All he has said is that he wants to play in the NHL as soon as possible. If the he doesn't sign and is not traded the earliest he will be able to play not just in the NHL, but pro is 2020-2021

The writing is on the wall that TVR and one of the other RHD will be moved out this season.

Do you see what you did here? You dismissed any speculation surrounding Fox by stating that "there has literally been no development on this," while at the same time, speculated that the "writing is on the wall that TVR and one of the other RHD will be moved out this season," despite there being *literally* no development on this. You can't have it both ways. Either we can all speculate, or we all can't speculate. I'll give you a minute to decide.

Imagine if we traded Faulk at the deadline. Hamilton on PP1 might make us better even if we don't get anything good in the trade.

Addition-by-subtraction of both Skinner and Faulk. Hmm ... where have I heard that before?

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

Do you see what you did here? You dismissed any speculation surrounding Fox by stating that "there has literally been no development on this," while at the same time, speculated that the "writing is on the wall that TVR and one of the other RHD will be moved out this season," despite there being *literally* no development on this. You can't have it both ways. Either we can all speculate, or we all can't speculate. I'll give you a minute to decide.

I think I did have it both ways - haha.

The facts are 1) if he doesn't sign and the Canes dont trade his rights he can't play in the NHL until 2020-2021 at the earliest (longer if there is a lockout). 2) he has said he wants to play in the NHL as soon as possible

 

[Canes]

I assume he'd have *huge* value to the Rangers, who have at least a half dozen players who may interest us. Who says no to a Fox-for-Hayes trade?

He might have huge value to them, but if he somehow makes it known he will only sign early with the Rangers, we're sort of boned because unless we accept whatever the Rangers would be willing to give for him to sign there a season early, then he and the Rangers can just wait it out until he graduates. I don't see a scenario of Fox to the Rangers where we get anything of value from them. Unless they're just willing to do us a favor. As for a Fox for Hayes in particular, I could see them trading Hayes for a 1st+ then gambling on being able to lowball us for Fox's rights. If Fox for Hayes is the best offer they get, then sure I could see it happening but I won't hold my breath on that being their best offer.

 

[My Special Purpose]

He might have huge value to them, but if he somehow makes it known he will only sign early with the Rangers, we're sort of boned because unless we accept whatever the Rangers would be willing to give for him to sign there a season early, then he and the Rangers can just wait it out until he graduates. I don't see a scenario of Fox to the Rangers where we get anything of value from them. Unless they're just willing to do us a favor. As for a Fox for Hayes in particular, I could see them trading Hayes for a 1st+ then gambling on being able to lowball us for Fox's rights. If Fox for Hayes is the best offer they get, then sure I could see it happening but I won't hold my breath on that being their best offer.

Fox saying that he will only sign with the Rangers most definitely kills his value to us, but it also maximizes the time it will take him to get to the NHL, which is the opposite of what he has said he wants. So there's definitely risk, but it's on both sides. The best resolution for all sides is to make this happen quickly and painlessly.

 

[raynman]

Imagine if we traded Faulk at the deadline. Hamilton on PP1 might make us better even if we don't get anything good in the trade.

I’d like to see Faulk gone at the deadline but IF he’s dealt I don’t think it goes down until the draft. They might think he’s too important for the playoff push.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Am I the only one uncomfortable bending a knee to Fox? I mean I get the kid should be good, but potentially "guaranteeing" him a spot in the lineup in order to entice him to sign? **** off.

If the Canes:
A) didn't realize Fox wanted to make the NHL ASAP
B) didn't think he would be anything more than a liabilty in a 3rd pairing role, and
C) weren't prepared to do what it takes to get him signed

Then making him a big piece of a trade in which you gave up two young players and also got a UFA you're preparing to let walk, was colossally f***ing stupid.