Hurricanes on PNC Arena lease negotiations: ‘The economics of the deal have to change in our favor’

[HisIceness]

And the other problem is that people who don't live here think that Greensboro is close to both Raleigh and Charlotte.

It really isn't. Raleigh is about an hour and twenty minutes, Charlotte, an hour and a half. It's just a little too far to be realistic.

It would be like expecting Philadelphia and New Haven to travel to New York.

Don't forget the traffic up and down 40 and 85. Especially the split going through Orange and Alamance Counties, if there's an accident, you ain't going nowhere.

 

[canuckfan75]

I doubt the league will allow the Hurricanes to move

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I doubt the league will allow the Hurricanes to move

they cannot anyway because of the seven year clause that was invoked when the franchise changed from Karmanos to Dundon

 

[Centrum Hockey]

I doubt the league will allow the Hurricanes to move

the league could not stop norm green from moving to Dallas being the commissioner that allowed a hockey team to fail in a state that loves hockey is failure on Gary Bettmans part.

 

[NCRanger]

If it wasn't for the Hornets, I think Charlotte could do reasonably well with an NHL team. The problem is, well, the NBA has been here for 30 years and fought to get back into the market after the original Hornets left. To put it simply, this city falls into a similar category with cities like Portland, Indianapolis, Orlando, and Nashville. Big enough for one but not both.

I do wish the Canes would market themselves more here and elsewhere, that I do agree with you on. The Bobcats in their 7 win season were promoting themselves from Asheville to Wilmington to Raleigh to Columbia to Charleston and the Triad. I saw it and couldn't understand why the Canes wouldn't do the same outside one preseason game in Charlotte.

I don't know even if the Hornets weren't here how well an NHL team would do. The Checkers do well enough for an AHL team, but I'm not sure if the average fan who goes to the Checkers games would be able to/would want to pay NHL prices for tickets.

An actual arena suitable for NHL hockey would have to be built. Spectrum Center is basketball-specific, and the hockey setup is weird, like Barclay's Center. Also, the Tyvola arena (the "Hive", Charlotte Coliseum) was not hockey configurable.

Charlotte proper also has demographics which are starting to mirror Atlanta. Suburban areas would have the majority of hockey fans. That wasn't necessarily the case back in 1997, if the Whalers came to Charlotte, rather than Raleigh/Greensboro.

I've been here since 2006, actually moved here in 1998, and then up to Raleigh in 1999, only to come back. I've seen drastic changes, and I don't necessarily think for the better. I'm giving a lot of thought to moving back to the Triangle.

I do wish the Hurricanes would market more down here.

 

[zetajerk]

the league could not stop norm green from moving to Dallas being the commissioner that allowed a hockey team to fail in a state that loves hockey is failure on Gary Bettmans part.

The Stars slow death in Minnesota and move to Dallas was set before Bettman was commissioner.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

The Stars slow death in Minnesota and move to Dallas was set before Bettman was commissioner.

the league should have given the northstars the same treatment they did to the coyotes if no one wanted to own them in MN they should haven run the team themselves a better negotiator could have drawn up a lease for the stars at the target center at the same time searching for a new arena and owner the target center has a decent hockey configuration
https://i2.wp.com/undhockey.areavoices.com/files/2017/03/targetcenter.jpg?fit=640,360&ssl=1

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

the league should have given the northstars the same treatment they did to the coyotes if no one wanted to own them in Mn they should haven run the team themselves a better negotiator could have drawn up a lease for the stars at the target center at the same time searching for a new arena and owner the target center has a decent hockey configuration
https://i2.wp.com/undhockey.areavoices.com/files/2017/03/targetcenter.jpg?fit=640,360&ssl=1

nope, the Stars didn't go that route, the only BK, besides Arizona, Centrum, is Buffalo, AFTER the Rigas collapse, and B. Thomas Golisano running them until the Pegulas STEPPED IN, and Pittsburgh, hence why the disdain/disgust over Howard Baldwin, and why Lemieux is the sole owner there

 

[Ted Hoffman]

the league should have given the northstars the same treatment they did to the coyotes if no one wanted to own them in MN they should haven run the team themselves a better negotiator could have drawn up a lease for the stars at the target center at the same time searching for a new arena and owner the target center has a decent hockey configuration
https://i2.wp.com/undhockey.areavoices.com/files/2017/03/targetcenter.jpg?fit=640,360&ssl=1

Green bought the team from the Gunds when they got the San Jose franchise. The league was supposed to ... what, force Green to sell? That wasn't happening, especially since the NHL had zero interest in running a franchise while waiting for a prospective owner to show up and keep the team in the Twin Cities area. Fan support for the North Stars had been weak for years, and that led to the team getting progressively weaker financially. Wolvenson was looking to sell the Target Center, the city wasn't interested, and Green didn't want to put the North Stars there and continue to draw 13,000 and be on the hook for paying off the arena.

And, remember that the problems with making payments on the Target Center nearly led to the Timberwolves leaving for New Orleans - and there was strong public opposition to any government entity buying the arena as some form of bailout for alleged multi-millionaires.

Ideally, someone else steps in and buys the team from the Gunds and funds the team's losses until things turn around. [Ideally, a lot of other things happen - but that's a long, long list to go through, starting with "the Gunds never get control of an NHL team."] It was a lousy chain of events that led to the North Stars going to Dallas, but I think it's better than 50/50 that had they remained in Minnesota in that period, they would have been contracted or relocated anyway.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I doubt the league will allow the Hurricanes to move

The league will do whatever is required to maintain franchise value. If that means keeping the team in Raleigh they will. If it means moving the team somewhere else they'll do that too.

 

[Bookie21]

the league could not stop norm green from moving to Dallas being the commissioner that allowed a hockey team to fail in a state that loves hockey is failure on Gary Bettmans part.

What the heck does Bettman have to do with Green moving the North Stars?

 

[Centrum Hockey]

What the heck does Bettman have to do with Green moving the North Stars?

he was commissioner at the time the league was the one that allowed him to go wherever he wanted after the move to Anaheim failed

 

[Dale Gribble]

Wasn't one of the selling points by Karmanos that they had a good lease in Raleigh ?
And now Dundon wants $150 million of free upgrades, and pay less rent ?

Maybe time for the NHL to finally move teams like Carolina, Arizona, and Florida.

 

[Fenway]

Norm Green was free to move Minnesota anywhere he wanted that didn't affect another NHL team

This is his own words about the move

The North Stars Move to Dallas - D Magazine

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Wasn't one of the selling points by Karmanos that they had a good lease in Raleigh ?
And now Dundon wants $150 million of free upgrades, and pay less rent ?

Maybe time for the NHL to finally move teams like Carolina, Arizona, and Florida.

Maybe dundon would consider Houston if he got a deal like the Celtics have in Boston with the bruins he is from Texas

 

[CandyCanes]

Oh goodie a new thread for everyone to talk about their dreams to relocate the Hurricanes

Dundon has no intentions to move the Hurricanes at this moment, he has all intentions in keeping this team in Raleigh. Look at him he's currently trying to negotiate a new lease in Raleigh, North Carolina. If he was thinking of moving the team, these negotiations would not be happening.

Keep in mind this is day 1 of negotiations of working on a new lease agreement for the Hurricanes at PNC Arena. The lease expires in (5) years, so there's about (3) years to work out a new deal here before Dundon needs to start considering options elsewhere. Sure the Hurricanes ask on the new deal is going to be a lot at this moment, it's the first step of any negotiation, their ask will come down. Asking for the arena to be upgraded is a totally reasonable ask. Asking for more flexibility in the scheduling with NC State again is a reasonable ask. Will they get all that they ask for, probably not, but there should be a deal to be had.

Please keep your relocation dreams to yourself, if there's no lease deal in place in 2-3 years, sure start firing up the location speculation again. But right now you are beating a dead horse.

 

[cheswick]

he was commissioner at the time the league was the one that allowed him to go wherever he wanted after the move to Anaheim failed

The move to Dallas was officially announced in March of 1993. Bettman became commissioner in February of 1993. He had nothing to do with it. The wheels were in motion long before he came on board.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The move to Dallas was officially announced in March of 1993. Bettman became commissioner in February of 1993. He had nothing to do with it. The wheels were in motion long before he came on board.

Shut up, cheswick. You're sticking facts in the middle of a perfectly irrational discussion about why Bettman sucks.

 

[StreetHawk]

Wasn't one of the selling points by Karmanos that they had a good lease in Raleigh ?
And now Dundon wants $150 million of free upgrades, and pay less rent ?

Maybe time for the NHL to finally move teams like Carolina, Arizona, and Florida.

Well it’s pretty standard isn’t it? That’s why it’s never just the $500 million these days to build the arena. It’s the ongoing upkeep plus renovations over time. Who will pay for those?

Is any party setting aside $5 million per year to save up for that big renovation? That’s the amount you need when the building hits 20-25 years of ages. PNC opened in around 1999 right? So it will be 25 years when this lease expires.

 

[93LEAFS]

Chicago would move east in a heartbeat if they could.

The reality is a market is defined not only by the ability to sell out the arena but the RSN territory that can be created. Nashville and St. Louis today have a huge footprint simply on how cable operators treat RSN's. That is what makes Seattle very viable and Houston desirable.

Forbes attempts to measure team values every year and while Bettman skoffs at their list, he doesn't produce figures that discredit Forbes either.

The wealthiest teams share one common denominator - very healthy local TV contracts. Personally, I think Forbes has underestimated the Bruins worth because it is impossible to sort out how Jacobs and family owned Delaware North deal with the entire Boston operation.

The Business Of Hockey

Carolina has debt service issues they didn't have with Karmanos.

Carolina Hurricanes on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List

It bears watching how the Canes draw in the final 2 months of this season as they are making a legitimate playoff push. Not helping is the casual fans in the Triangle will be watching March Madness with UNC, NC State and Duke being involved.

A man that I worked with in Chicago in the early 80's who went back to Greensboro, the late Rich Brenner, told me countless times that the Hurricanes would have fared much better in Greensboro than in Raleigh because even though it was a smaller market the locals would have embraced it and they would attract puckheads from both Raleigh and Charlotte and be a true Carolina team.

The impact of RSN's is huge on these teams bottom lines. Without a massive national tv deal, local TV and Gate are going to be the significant drivers of revenue. I do also wonder what it means for calculating a team like the Leafs, who were essentially bought by the two biggest competitors for their rights so they wouldn't go crazy bidding against each other. Bell also has a significant Habs share and control their local rights.

Interesting about the location of the Hurricanes and how much it competes against Duke, UNC and NC State. Never thought about Greensboro. Surprised they didn't end up in Charlotte in retrospect.

I'm not that clued in on the TV deal, but what regional sports stations are there in Seattle and Houston, and would you think they create their own, and get involved with an existing one. I'd expect any Houston deal to involved the current Rockets owner, so I'd assume they'd get packaged togeather whereever the Rockets are airing their local games.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Well it’s pretty standard isn’t it? That’s why it’s never just the $500 million these days to build the arena. It’s the ongoing upkeep plus renovations over time. Who will pay for those?

If you're in St. Louis, it's the Blues.

 

[Bookie21]

he was commissioner at the time the league was the one that allowed him to go wherever he wanted after the move to Anaheim failed

Gary became commish on February 1, 1993; the Stars began play in Dallas in October 1993. Given the timeline, I think this was something Ziegler put his signature on.
Bettman had next to nothing to do with the relocation of the Stars. That was in the works long, long before he came into office (I think the move was announced like.... two weeks or a month after he took over, and the agreements in place long before that though not finalized). Dallas had been on the NHL's radar since the mid-1980s, and at least one if not several exhibition games rolled through town in the 80s. So, to answer the question what does Bettman have to do with it? Nothing

 

[Centrum Hockey]

i did not know the whole story until now why didn't the NHL work with Minnesota on expansion bid right away. why did they leave the market empty for most of the decade

 

[Grudy0]

By the time Bettman started his tenure, there were 24 teams playing and another 2 starting the following season in the most rushed expansion selection ever. Expansion wasn't on the radar immediately as the League was still digesting the five expansion teams in four years.

When the NHL finally opened up the expansion bidding process, Minnesota was selected. That was in 1997. The Stars left for Dallas in 1993.

Combine that with the Jets leaving Winnipeg and possibly moving to Target Center in Minneapolis in 1996, one could say Minnesota was on the radar for quite some time.

 

[Dale Gribble]

I'm not that clued in on the TV deal, but what regional sports stations are there in Seattle and Houston, and would you think they create their own, and get involved with an existing one. I'd expect any Houston deal to involved the current Rockets owner, so I'd assume they'd get packaged together where ever the Rockets are airing their local games.

I agree. A team in Houston only really makes sense long term if Tillman Feritta owns the team.

On a side note: I'd love to see an NHL team in Milwaukee, I've always thought it could be a great NHL market, and that new arena is fantastic.