Hurricanes on PNC Arena lease negotiations: ‘The economics of the deal have to change in our favor’

[blood gin]

The league will do whatever is required to maintain franchise value. If that means keeping the team in Raleigh they will. If it means moving the team somewhere else they'll do that too.

Bingo

 

[Major4Boarding]

The topic is the Canes and PNC Arena lease negotiations. Not Milwaukee

Stay on topic

 

[powerstuck]

Entitled what? God forbid as a business entity they want a better deal.

Entitled in a sense that team and their owners should be lucky they didn't have to pay for their arena. And that goes for all of North America, including Canada.

I was pro-public funding when Quebec City built their barn, because I wanted the Nordiques to come back so badly.
I am still happy the city did something because there is a clear difference in music and other entertainment acts stopping in the city now, that didn't do so before, which allows me to spend my entertainment money on all that new stuff.

But then again, I am seeing Remparts games costing a lot much more. I am seeing half an empty barn and the atmosphere in it suffer. Maybe the old Colisée only had 15k, but at least when the lower bowl had 8k Rempart fans, the ambiance was estatic. Now the new barn has 19k but when the lower bowl has 8k it feels empty.

So in a way, I've seen both sides. And yes cities can fund/build by them selves venues. But they don't have to build top capacity, modern venues. Quebec City would have been fine building a music/spectacle venue that would have cost less than $200M.

So, when on one side you have private investors in Vegas spend $350M and in Seattle spend $750M...and on the other side investors in Quebec City and Carolina cry out loud they need more public money, the one gang does feel entitled a lot.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Entitled in a sense that team and their owners should be lucky they didn't have to pay for their arena. And that goes for all of North America, including Canada.

I was pro-public funding when Quebec City built their barn, because I wanted the Nordiques to come back so badly.
I am still happy the city did something because there is a clear difference in music and other entertainment acts stopping in the city now, that didn't do so before, which allows me to spend my entertainment money on all that new stuff.

But then again, I am seeing Remparts games costing a lot much more. I am seeing half an empty barn and the atmosphere in it suffer. Maybe the old Colisée only had 15k, but at least when the lower bowl had 8k Rempart fans, the ambiance was estatic. Now the new barn has 19k but when the lower bowl has 8k it feels empty.

So in a way, I've seen both sides. And yes cities can fund/build by them selves venues. But they don't have to build top capacity, modern venues. Quebec City would have been fine building a music/spectacle venue that would have cost less than $200M.

So, when on one side you have private investors in Vegas spend $350M and in Seattle spend $750M...and on the other side investors in Quebec City and Carolina cry out loud they need more public money, the one gang does feel entitled a lot.

Hurricanes dont control the arena and cant get more desirable dates though. And Golden Knights didnt pay for their arena.

If you want Hurricanes to pay for the renovation you better be ready to let them control the bookings too.

 

[MNNumbers]

Hurricanes dont control the arena and cant get more desirable dates though. And Golden Knights didnt pay for their arena.

If you want Hurricanes to pay for the renovation you better be ready to let them control the bookings too.

Two things....

1- Foley is partial owner of T-Mobile Arena, so yes he did pay part of it. Along with that, I am not sure how much, if any, he gets and if he has management rights.

2- Hurricanes get all the ancillary cash from the PNC. The only problem they have is losing some good dates to ACC scheduling.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Two things....

1- Foley is partial owner of T-Mobile Arena, so yes he did pay part of it. Along with that, I am not sure how much, if any, he gets and if he has management rights.

2- Hurricanes get all the ancillary cash from the PNC. The only problem they have is losing some good dates to ACC scheduling.

He owns small part and he didnt finance it when it was built.

If you expect Canes to invest significsnt amount if cash you better believe they want to be more than a regulat tenant.

 

[MNNumbers]

He owns small part and he didnt finance it when it was built.

If you expect Canes to invest significsnt amount if cash you better believe they want to be more than a regulat tenant.

They ARE more than a tenant. For every concert, they get the arena profit. That's true for every event, except University events, as far as I know.

They have complete control, except that the University has the right to reserve certain scheduling dates. That scheduling issue is probably what they are after.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

They ARE more than a tenant. For every concert, they get the arena profit. That's true for every event, except University events, as far as I know.

They have complete control, except that the University has the right to reserve certain scheduling dates. That scheduling issue is probably what they are after.

Quite correct. The Hurricanes, via their parent organization, Gale Force Sports & Entertainment, hold the operational/management rights to PNC.

 

[powerstuck]

Hurricanes dont control the arena and cant get more desirable dates though. And Golden Knights didnt pay for their arena.

If you want Hurricanes to pay for the renovation you better be ready to let them control the bookings too.

I don't disagree, except with the fact that teams/owners invest a fraction of cost, but want all the benefits.

If Canes pay for 50% of cost, well give em 50% of generated profits, not 100%.

My point was teams are always playing the victim card in these situations which is not fair.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I don't disagree, except with the fact that teams/owners invest a fraction of cost, but want all the benefits.

If Canes pay for 50% of cost, well give em 50% of generated profits, not 100%.

My point was teams are always playing the victim card in these situations which is not fair.

Bruh that’s pretty much the game for sport team owners. Granted I think you will see more privately funded stadiums now but this is still what majority of sports team owners do.

 

[StreetHawk]

Bruh that’s pretty much the game for sport team owners. Granted I think you will see more privately funded stadiums now but this is still what majority of sports team owners do.

Worst case scenario is that the Canes leave and they take back control of the arena or contract it out to AEG or something to manage the arena. The arena was originally built to house NC State not the NHL. Arena was adjusted to accommodate the NhL prior to groundbreaking.

So they would not be left hanging if the canes want too much.

 

[TheLegend]

I’m gettting a bit confused here with all the theorizing going on.

What..... exactly..... is Dundon looking for??

A couple of years ago Waddell was quoted saying the Canes were actually in the black after they chucked the mass number of ticket freebies they gave out and brought other costs under control.

But as with all pro sports, contracts keep gettting bigger and more expensive so I’m going to presume Dundon’s looking down the road a decade or more and wondering how he can keep the Canes in the black.... AND competitive at the same time??

 

[VikingAv]

I’m gettting a bit confused here with all the theorizing going on.

What..... exactly..... is Dundon looking for??

A couple of years ago Waddell was quoted saying the Canes were actually in the black after they chucked the mass number of ticket freebies they gave out and brought other costs under control.

But as with all pro sports, contracts keep gettting bigger and more expensive so I’m going to presume Dundon’s looking down the road a decade or more and wondering how he can keep the Canes in the black.... AND competitive at the same time??

I believe those comments from Waddell came when the sale process was very much in the wind. At that time, they had a very high interest in painting the nicest financial picture of the whole organization.

Fast forward to today, and it turns out Dundon is either a cheapskate or simply doesn't have the financial capability fans would like.

I think, as others have pointed out earlier in the thread, that this is mostly about the scheduling conflicts. It's just plain stupid that there are several saturdays without any activity when there are two major tenants.

 

[sawchuk1971]

Hurricanes Owners Want To Party Like It Is 2024 - Sports Talk Florida - N

the organization is saying that renovating pnc arena is a must or a new arena is good too...

here is what don waddell states:

“If you look around the league, for public buildings, we’re at the bottom of the league. It’s nothing that anyone did wrong. Those were the times back in the ‘90s. But if we’re going to be a sustainable franchise in this marketplace for a long time, the lease plays an important role. The economics of the deal have to change in our favor.” Raleigh has always been a worrisome franchise in that the market is so small. But the former owner Karmanos didn’t have any doubt about the viability of the franchise in 2015 when he said “we’d have to be idiots to move from here.” The prevailing though was the team’s arena lease, which extends through 2024, was one of the most team-friendly agreements in the league. The Carolina Hurricanes franchise is now on the clock for a new building or a renovated facility or possibly a relocation. It is just business, nothing personnel.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Hurricanes Owners Want To Party Like It Is 2024 - Sports Talk Florida - N

the organization is saying that renovating pnc arena is a must or a new arena is good too...

here is what don waddell states:

Tom Dundon should try to leverage the state by scheduling a preseason/Neutral
site game in Houston its pretty much one of the only viable open markets and he is from Texas.

 

[Fenway]

Hurricanes Owners Want To Party Like It Is 2024 - Sports Talk Florida - N

the organization is saying that renovating pnc arena is a must or a new arena is good too...

here is what don waddell states:

This is just a rehash of something that was said a year ago.

Hurricanes Seek Changes in Potential PNC Arena Lease Extension - Arena Digest

The reality is the Canes with the sale now carry enormous debt that Karmanos didn't.

The Canes current playoff push is a good story but one problem is it will be hard for them to be the primary topic in sports in that market for the next month because of a little thing called March Madness. It will be curious to see how the market responds.

 

[gstommylee]

Tom Dundon should try to leverage the state by scheduling a preseason game in Houston its pretty much one of the only viable open markets and he is from Texas

Why would the NHL want to unbalance the league again? if canes move i doubt its to houston.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Why would the NHL want to unbalance the league again? if canes move i doubt its to houston.

Chicago and Nashville are on the borderline of the east.In the nba the bulls moved east to accommodate the expansion Mavericks.

 

[StreetHawk]

Tom Dundon should try to leverage the state by scheduling a preseason/Neutral
site game in Houston its pretty much one of the only viable open markets and he is from Texas.

Unless TD and TF who owns the rockets and controls the Toyota Center come to an agreement, it doesn’t really do anything to scare anyone. If Tillman doesn’t have skin in the Canes they would just be a tenant in a larger market. And what is Tillman willing to give up in his control of the arena revenues to get skin in the Canes? Does what he gain with an NHL club offset what other revenues he needs to give up to the Canes?

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Unless TD and TF who owns the rockets and controls the Toyota Center come to an agreement, it doesn’t really do anything to scare anyone. If Tillman doesn’t have skin in the Canes they would just be a tenant in a larger market. And what is Tillman willing to give up in his control of the arena revenues to get skin in the Canes? Does what he gain with an NHL club offset what other revenues he needs to give up to the Canes?

TD talking to tilman at a preseason game would be a story even if there was no deal. When the nfl wanted to go la the rams practiced with the cowboys in California and Stan kroenke was there it got people in st louis talking

 

[gstommylee]

The cane's owner has a no relocation clause with the leauge that expires when the lease expires when it does expire. Houston might not even be an option.

btw Both Nashville and chicago are both central division time zones. It makes no sense to have one of those 2 play in the eastern conference.

 

[MNNumbers]

The cane's owner has a no relocation clause with the leauge that expires when the lease expires when it does expire. Houston might not even be an option.

btw Both Nashville and chicago are both central division time zones. It makes no sense to have one of those 2 play in the eastern conference.

I disagree with the last part of this.....
What the NHL BOG has said in regard to alignment BY ITS ACTIONS is....
It makes no sense for an ETZ team to play in the west.

That is far different from a CTZ team playing in the east.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

I disagree with the last part of this.....
What the NHL BOG has said in regard to alignment BY ITS ACTIONS is....
It makes no sense for an ETZ team to play in the west.

That is far different from a CTZ team playing in the east.

The Blackhawks would probably be in favor of more games against Detroit, Boston, Toronto, NYR and Montreal

 

[gstommylee]

I disagree with the last part of this.....
What the NHL BOG has said in regard to alignment BY ITS ACTIONS is....
It makes no sense for an ETZ team to play in the west.

That is far different from a CTZ team playing in the east.

NHL does what is the least resistance alignment wise. I don't see canes moving to the western conference city when there is already a city in the eastern time zone available. Plus the sooner the team could move if it moves at all is 2024-25 season iirc and Houston might already have a team by then via a relocated team. A lot can happen in those 5 years so lets not get ahead of our selves on if the team will remain there or not.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Chicago and Nashville are on the borderline of the east.In the nba the bulls moved east to accommodate the expansion Mavericks.

Yea honestly, eastern team moving west is not an issue at all. Hell two could move west and it still would not be an issue.