Speculation: How to open up 2nd buyout window to buyout Raymond

[InfinityIggy]

Neat idea. Make it so Treliving.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

and I was providing the argument against Byron for Hox

But I wasn't arguing for or against Byron

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Byron is the epitome of trash.
inb4 Byron Brigade lol

 

[RedHot]

I have no issue with Byron, he's just a frustrating player, but even you yourself admitted there may not be room for him. So I am not sure why you continue to argue when that is the whole premise.

I agree he is a frustrating player, and I do think it will be tough to fit him in.

But I find myself to act as the righteous defender of Byron. His advanced stats are unreal, and while it may look like he's just a guy who doesn't finish, under the surface there's more. Especially in today's puck possession era.

I'll leave everyone with this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQsq8KMuexQ

 

[GAMO1992]

This thread went from being about buying out Raymond, to arguing over Byron? whyyyy?
We take Byron to arb. in order to buy out Raymond. how did it veer from that into the Byron argument again?

 

[Mobiandi]

"You miss 100% of the shots you do take" - Paul Byron

- Rafa Diaz

Byron is expendable because there are a lot of guys that hockey better than he does on this team now and in the future. There is a reason he has been in like zero potential line combinations posted since the Frolik signing. He's a fringe player.

This phrasing made me laugh way too much for some reason

 

[Fantasy Billionaire]

It's more about buying out Raymond and using Byron to do so because if arbitration goes south he's likely not in the long term plans.

Wouldn't it be easier to just trade both to Boston?

 

[Lunatik]

Wouldn't it be easier to just trade both to Boston?

Because teams clearly shedding salary are seeking cap dumps.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

tldr: You have no idea what you're talking about and your idea is terrible. The Flames can buy Raymond out next year if it's that important.

 

[Lunatik]

tldr: You have no idea what you're talking about and your idea is terrible. The Flames can buy Raymond out next year if it's that important.

What a solid contribution as always

And I know exactly what I am talking about and the way it looks now, why spend the money to buy him in the minors?

 

[Ace Rimmer]

This phrasing made me laugh way too much for some reason

I'm glad because that's what I intended.

Wouldn't it be easier to just trade both to Boston?

In hindsight, probably.

tldr: You have no idea what you're talking about and your idea is terrible. The Flames can buy Raymond out next year if it's that important.

yourideaisnewandidon'tunderstanditanditscaresme.gif

 

[Anglesmith]

I disagree that the play dies on Byron's stick very much. You don't get a billion chances when you keep having the play die on your stick. You can't be a good possession player if the play dies on your stick, because possession numbers are based on shots, and the play dying on your stick indicates that you never got to that stage. He had an off season in terms of finishing (which, if you look at his history, was a complete anomaly), but that doesn't mean the play died on his stick. I'm not basing this just on advanced stats, though. By my eye, I never associate Byron with having the play die on his stick a la Raymond.

Had to get that out.

Other than that, your plan is so crazy, it just might work. One issue I have with it is that I'm still holding out hope that we can dump the full value of that contract for a 5th or later. A buyout guarantees that we'll have some of that cap hit on our books for the next four years (I think).

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I disagree that the play dies on Byron's stick very much. You don't get a billion chances when you keep having the play die on your stick. You can't be a good possession player if the play dies on your stick, because possession numbers are based on shots, and the play dying on your stick indicates that you never got to that stage. He had an off season in terms of finishing (which, if you look at his history, was a complete anomaly), but that doesn't mean the play died on his stick. I'm not basing this just on advanced stats, though. By my eye, I never associate Byron with having the play die on his stick a la Raymond.

Had to get that out.

Seconded.

Whenever Jooris and Byron were out together it was hell for the other team, even if the goalie did ultimately make the save. And that one time Backlund was out there with the two was amazing... we took it to the Wild like we're the Kings or something.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

What a solid contribution as always

And I know exactly what I am talking about and the way it looks now, why spend the money to buy him in the minors?

I contribute solidly all the time. This one post was explicitly because I think you present your arguments in a disrespectful manner, and I had an immature moment.

Anyway, to provide an actual argument: the Flames don't need the cap space this season, and if they wait until next offseason to buy him out, they a) avoid inducing arbitration with any of their players, and b) have only two years of cap penalty on the buyout instead of four (not a huge difference since waiting the extra year means it's 3 years from now rather than 4, but if you can afford it, why not save as much cap space as possible later).

It's also entirely possible that they find someone who will take Raymond on the trade market.

 

[chunkylover53]

Yeah I think Byron is underrated and his adv numbers are in the better realm. With Raymond, I'd just hope someone takes him in a trade this season...

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

If this indeed happens, I'm going to give Stewie and 100TG mad props.

 

[Anglesmith]

I'm still not sold on buying Raymond out. If we buy him out, we guarantee that we'll be dealing with a cap hit for the next few years. If we keep him, we can look for other ways to get rid of the contract as a whole. Maybe right now teams aren't interested in him with 2 years left, but next off-season, a team expecting to do poorly might take him for a low pick on the off-chance that they might be able to flip him at the deadline for good assets.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I'm still not sold on buying Raymond out. If we buy him out, we guarantee that we'll be dealing with a cap hit for the next few years. If we keep him, we can look for other ways to get rid of the contract as a whole. Maybe right now teams aren't interested in him with 2 years left, but next off-season, a team expecting to do poorly might take him for a low pick on the off-chance that they might be able to flip him at the deadline for good assets.

I agree, it's not ideal. Would be better to buy him out worst case next year. Problem is I have a feeling his value will only further plummet this year. I like Byron a lot more than him and also think Paul is a superior option in our bottom 6 whereas Raymond is utterly useless in that role. The big advantage of buying him out now is that it would open up a roster spot, but I agree from a cap standpoint it's better to do next year.

Of course yes he could bounce back and become an asset in the process, but I have my doubts.

 

[Mobiandi]

I think if it looks likely that we won't be making the playoffs this season, he'll be dealt at the deadline

 

[Anglesmith]

I agree, it's not ideal. Would be better to buy him out worst case next year. Problem is I have a feeling his value will only further plummet this year. I like Byron a lot more than him and also think Paul is a superior option in our bottom 6 whereas Raymond is utterly useless in that role. The big advantage of buying him out now is that it would open up a roster spot, but I agree from a cap standpoint it's better to do next year.

Of course yes he could bounce back and become an asset in the process, but I have my doubts.

Another way to open a roster spot would be to waive him and send him to the AHL, and that itself also carries the possibility of some team taking the whole cap hit off our hands.

 

[Yung Rotini]

If they wanted to buy Raymond out, why wouldn't they have just done it during the buy out window?

 

[Volica]

Another way to open a roster spot would be to waive him and send him to the AHL, and that itself also carries the possibility of some team taking the whole cap hit off our hands.

Buying Raymond out just for the sake of buying him out is kind of moronic, unfortunately. While clearly there's no fit on this team; this year his 3 million means absolutely nothing. It's his roster spot that has value to us.

If he gets beat out by our young guns, throw him on waivers of trade him. Worst case scenario he provides some veteran presence in the AHL. Next year, we may need the cap space... Then buying him out had some purpose. Just buying him this year is a waste of cash. People forget that someone actually has to pay for these types of transactions.

 

[Anglesmith]

If they wanted to buy Raymond out, why wouldn't they have just done it during the buy out window?

We didn't know if we'd land Frolik.

 

[Calculon]

If Raymond spends the majority of the season either in the AHL, pressbox, injured or on the fourth line, his trade value is only going to go down.

Have a hard time seeing him win a spot in training camp based on anything but his contract.

A buyout would see roughly 1M in dead cap space for four years. Better to retain (as much as 33%) salary in a trade, as it would mean only dead space for two seasons.