OT: How to Assign Blame When the Flyers Allow a Goal (Flowchart)

[DrinkFightFlyers]

and I think in the end that's what most of us are trying to get at. he is cheap. he plays pretty well when asked. but for some reason there seems to be a need to ice the most expensive top 6 in the NHL. or one of the most expensive.
Its going to suck when Gus doesn't sign his QO and his contract slot is filled with another 35 plus year year old contract.

A bit of a stretch there. I think the appropriate statement would be something along the lines of "It's going to be the same when Gus doesn't sign his QO and his contract slot is filled with another bottom pairing defender." Yes, if the Flyers sign someone 35+ for $5 million a year to be the #7 defenseman, that would be a bad move. But when they sign a different player to a more reasonable contract to be the #7 defender, I don't think we will be legitimately complaining about Gus. Gus's "youth" is running out. He's 26 next season. While I don't necessarily have any specific suggestions, I think when next year rolls around, if Gus is gone, his replacement in the press box will not be a 35+ contract at some crazy rate. It may very well be an older player, but he may also be around the same age.

The bottom line is, I'm confident the Flyers can find a replacement bottom pair/#7 defender for around the same price. Will he be 26? Maybe not. Will he be maybe $100k or $200k more? Perhaps. Will that meant he Flyers made some crazy epic failure of a move? I'd say no.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A bit of a stretch there. I think the appropriate statement would be something along the lines of "It's going to be the same when Gus doesn't sign his QO and his contract slot is filled with another bottom pairing defender." Yes, if the Flyers sign someone 35+ for $5 million a year to be the #7 defenseman, that would be a bad move. But when they sign a different player to a more reasonable contract to be the #7 defender, I don't think we will be legitimately complaining about Gus. Gus's "youth" is running out. He's 26 next season. While I don't necessarily have any specific suggestions, I think when next year rolls around, if Gus is gone, his replacement in the press box will not be a 35+ contract at some crazy rate. It may very well be an older player, but he may also be around the same age.

The bottom line is, I'm confident the Flyers can find a replacement bottom pair/#7 defender for around the same price. Will he be 26? Maybe not. Will he be maybe $100k or $200k more? Perhaps. Will that meant he Flyers made some crazy epic failure of a move? I'd say no.

And what exactly would that say about their ability to develop defensive talent from within?

Here, I'll answer that:

 

[Prongo]

Yes, it's about Gus again!

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

A bit of a stretch there. I think the appropriate statement would be something along the lines of "It's going to be the same when Gus doesn't sign his QO and his contract slot is filled with another bottom pairing defender." Yes, if the Flyers sign someone 35+ for $5 million a year to be the #7 defenseman, that would be a bad move. But when they sign a different player to a more reasonable contract to be the #7 defender, I don't think we will be legitimately complaining about Gus. Gus's "youth" is running out. He's 26 next season. While I don't necessarily have any specific suggestions, I think when next year rolls around, if Gus is gone, his replacement in the press box will not be a 35+ contract at some crazy rate. It may very well be an older player, but he may also be around the same age.

The bottom line is, I'm confident the Flyers can find a replacement bottom pair/#7 defender for around the same price. Will he be 26? Maybe not. Will he be maybe $100k or $200k more? Perhaps. Will that meant he Flyers made some crazy epic failure of a move? I'd say no.

the Hal Gill signing right now looks like a wasted contract slot. doesn't matter what he is being paid.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

And what exactly would that say about their ability to develop defensive talent from within?

Here, I'll answer that:

Meh. "Developing" a bottom pairing defender is no great accomplishment. I'd wager that most team's bottom pairing or #7 guys are not developed from within, and if they are their production/contracts are not all that different from signing a guy in UFA. There are oodles of bottom pairing guys available at all times. Some of them young, some of them old. Some of them play the role better than others of course, but if Gus leaves and we have to bring someone else in, I'm not going to immediately label it a failure. We're already jumping to crazy conclusions about 1) Gus leaving and 2) Gus being replaced by a 35+ contract. Let's see what happens. If he goes and the Flyers bring in someone ******, I'll be right there with you. But he may be back or the Flyers may bring in someone adequate or (GASP!) better, maybe even (GASP!) on a better or comparable deal to Gus. Hell, he might even be (GASP!) younger.

the Hal Gill signing right now looks like a wasted contract slot. doesn't matter what he is being paid.

Lol. Yeah, that's a good point. That wasted contract spot for Gil is so stupid. If the Flyers didn't waste that $700k on him, they could have signed someone else that wouldn't be used to fill that hole! The Flyers are under the contract limits and he's making $700k on a one-year deal. There is 100% nothing wrong with that signing unless you want to complain just for complaining's sake (I guess because he is old and old players simply have no place in the NHL, even if they are only playing 5 games a year and have a negligible cap hit).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Meh. "Developing" a bottom pairing defender is no great accomplishment. I'd wager that most team's bottom pairing or #7 guys are not developed from within, and if they are their production/contracts are not all that different from signing a guy in UFA. There are oodles of bottom pairing guys available at all times. Some of them young, some of them old. Some of them play the role better than others of course, but if Gus leaves and we have to bring someone else in, I'm not going to immediately label it a failure. We're already jumping to crazy conclusions about 1) Gus leaving and 2) Gus being replaced by a 35+ contract. Let's see what happens. If he goes and the Flyers bring in someone ******, I'll be right there with you. But he may be back or the Flyers may bring in someone adequate or (GASP!) better, maybe even (GASP!) on a better or comparable deal to Gus. Hell, he might even be (GASP!) younger.



Lol. Yeah, that's a good point. That wasted contract spot for Gil is so stupid. If the Flyers didn't waste that $700k on him, they could have signed someone else that wouldn't be used to fill that hole! The Flyers are under the contract limits and he's making $700k on a one-year deal. There is 100% nothing wrong with that signing unless you want to complain just for complaining's sake (I guess because he is old and old players simply have no place in the NHL, even if they are only playing 5 games a year and have a negligible cap hit).

How about their 5/6 dmen? Other teams typically have their own guys in those slots for cheap, instead of overpaying like the Flyers do. Right now the team has a guy in Gus that fills that role very well and still has room to grow, and how has he been handled? He's been benched in favor of inferior players, because this organization has a blinding enthusiasm for veterans.

Combine that with 40 years of mostly overwhelming failure to produce any notable NHL dmen outside of a couple names, and the omen is bad.

And dude, there aren't players available who are younger, better, and cheaper than Gus (or any combination of those traits), you are completely out to lunch on that. And as usual, none of your obnoxious hyperbole changes that reality. It won't happen. It hasn't happened in ages. Teams (besides the Flyers, of course) don't just let those players go. That's why we keep having to give up assets for them or sign old washed up guys.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Meh. "Developing" a bottom pairing defender is no great accomplishment. I'd wager that most team's bottom pairing or #7 guys are not developed from within, and if they are their production/contracts are not all that different from signing a guy in UFA. There are oodles of bottom pairing guys available at all times. Some of them young, some of them old. Some of them play the role better than others of course, but if Gus leaves and we have to bring someone else in, I'm not going to immediately label it a failure. We're already jumping to crazy conclusions about 1) Gus leaving and 2) Gus being replaced by a 35+ contract. Let's see what happens. If he goes and the Flyers bring in someone ******, I'll be right there with you. But he may be back or the Flyers may bring in someone adequate or (GASP!) better, maybe even (GASP!) on a better or comparable deal to Gus. Hell, he might even be (GASP!) younger.



Lol. Yeah, that's a good point. That wasted contract spot for Gil is so stupid. If the Flyers didn't waste that $700k on him, they could have signed someone else that wouldn't be used to fill that hole! The Flyers are under the contract limits and he's making $700k on a one-year deal. There is 100% nothing wrong with that signing unless you want to complain just for complaining's sake (I guess because he is old and old players simply have no place in the NHL, even if they are only playing 5 games a year and have a negligible cap hit).

the Flyers could sign a lump of coal to a contract and you would support it. you just blindly support everything the Flyers do. Once again.

 

[MadFerIt95*]

Yeah I don't understand the Gus thing either. The original flowchart makes a lot more sense.

It would make sense if it were Craig Berube's goal blaming flow chart

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Haha good find. Absolutely loved the Gus one haha

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

How about their 5/6 dmen? Other teams typically have their own guys in those slots for cheap, instead of overpaying like the Flyers do. Right now the team has a guy in Gus that fills that role very well and still has room to grow, and how has he been handled? He's been benched in favor of inferior players, because this organization has a blinding enthusiasm for veterans.

Don't get me wrong, this team's defense is definitely too expensive. What I'm saying is that if Gus leaves, it isn't a foregone conclusion that someone is going to be brought in that is old and overpriced. It is possible, for sure, but let's see what happens first.

As far as how Gus has been handled, I think it is commensurate with how other players his age with his pedigree in his position would be handled. Would he have been given more time with another organization? Possibly. Does that mean he would be excelling with that organization? Possibly. But acting like the Flyers have done some crazy disservice because this guy who in all likelihood tops out as a bottom pairing guy is only playing a third of the season is an overreaction. If this was Samuel Morin, and he was sitting int he press box, ok, I get it. But that's not who it is.

Combine that with 40 years of mostly overwhelming failure to produce any notable NHL dmen outside of a couple names, and the omen is bad.

Again, don't get me wrong. The Flyers do not have a great track record with defenseman. But "mishandling" a bottom pairing defender is hardly evidence of anything to be concerned about. I guess the bigger concern would be the fact that Schenn hasn't panned out the way we had hoped and Grossmann has had a pretty bad season. You don't make room for a guy on a team just because he is 25.

And dude, there aren't players available who are younger, better, and cheaper than Gus (or any combination of those traits), you are completely out to lunch on that. And as usual, none of your obnoxious hyperbole changes that reality. It won't happen. It hasn't happened in ages. Teams (besides the Flyers, of course) don't just let those players go. That's why we keep having to give up assets for them or sign old washed up guys.

Haha. It hasn't happened in ages (except when the Flyers signed some guy named Erik Gusstaffson). Again, let's wait and see what happens. You may be 100% correct. If Gus leaves, they might blow it. They might sign some schmuck to a huge deal and we'll regret it. But they might not. You're the one speaking in hyperbole about what may or may not materialize down the road. I'm saying let's wait and say because I am confident they can find a replacement around the same cost and playing. The age might not be the same, but as I've said, younger doesn't always mean better.

the Flyers could sign a lump of coal to a contract and you would support it. you just blindly support everything the Flyers do. Once again.

No I don't, I just don't blindly complain about anything. Gil wasn't signed to be anything more than a #7. The fact that he is a #8 doesn't really matter. It is a small cap hit for one year on a player with over 1000 NHL games and the team doesn't need the contract slot. What is the problem with the signing? It's useless? Ok, what would you have done with the $700k and the extra contract slot that is not needed? Oh that's right, nothing because it doesn't matter at all. What was the negative affect? Nothing. Was it a waste of Ed Snider's money? Sure, whatever. Uncle Ed will be fine though, but I get why you would be concerned with that $700k, because, you know, it's just like, a bad move, right.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

700k contract on a team always at the cap ceiling isn't smart management if the guy only plays 5 or less games. but then again this is the same team that also employs Jay Rosehill and once had Kris Newberry up with the pro squad.
but hey whats almost 2 million in stupid contracts anyway.
oh well. its not my money. I should have no reason to complain about it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Don't get me wrong, this team's defense is definitely too expensive. What I'm saying is that if Gus leaves, it isn't a foregone conclusion that someone is going to be brought in that is old and overpriced. It is possible, for sure, but let's see what happens first.

As far as how Gus has been handled, I think it is commensurate with how other players his age with his pedigree in his position would be handled. Would he have been given more time with another organization? Possibly. Does that mean he would be excelling with that organization? Possibly. But acting like the Flyers have done some crazy disservice because this guy who in all likelihood tops out as a bottom pairing guy is only playing a third of the season is an overreaction. If this was Samuel Morin, and he was sitting int he press box, ok, I get it. But that's not who it is.



Again, don't get me wrong. The Flyers do not have a great track record with defenseman. But "mishandling" a bottom pairing defender is hardly evidence of anything to be concerned about. I guess the bigger concern would be the fact that Schenn hasn't panned out the way we had hoped and Grossmann has had a pretty bad season. You don't make room for a guy on a team just because he is 25.



Haha. It hasn't happened in ages (except when the Flyers signed some guy named Erik Gusstaffson). Again, let's wait and see what happens. You may be 100% correct. If Gus leaves, they might blow it. They might sign some schmuck to a huge deal and we'll regret it. But they might not. You're the one speaking in hyperbole about what may or may not materialize down the road. I'm saying let's wait and say because I am confident they can find a replacement around the same cost and playing. The age might not be the same, but as I've said, younger doesn't always mean better.

Hahahaha. When they signed Gus? When they signed him he was an AHLer, a prospect. Gus' replacement next year if he leaves won't be his current equal. Completely different situation.

Gus showed he should be on the bottom pairing last season. This season he proved that beyond any reasonable doubt. He has been a good player, and as a Dman he still has room to improve and grow with experience. You can try to marginalize that by calling him a bottom pairing D as much as you want, but considering the fact that we lack a #1 right now, being able to roll a damned competent bottom pairing with Gus and Luke is important. You just seem really desperate to write Gus off as hard as you can to defend the Flyers' questionable choices with his handling.

We have a cheap, good, roster player sitting on the bench. He's on the bench because the Flyers can't get over big, crappy veterans. This bodes poorly for future D development, whether you want to admit it or not. Gus isn't like Bartulis, who WAS a fringe #6 guy (though he was handled pretty crappily as well). Gus has made it as clear as possible that he should be playing consistently, and he isn't. That's bad.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

700k contract on a team always at the cap ceiling isn't smart management if the guy only plays 5 or less games. but then again this is the same team that also employs Jay Rosehill and once had Kris Newberry up with the pro squad.
but hey whats almost 2 million in stupid contracts anyway.
oh well. its not my money. I should have no reason to complain about it.

Yeah good point. Let me ask you this, who should be the 13th/14th forward and 7th/8th defenseman on an NHL team? I guess looking around the league, most teams have guys on great contracts who really should be starting that are sitting in the pressbox. Very few teams have veteran guys who are true 13/14 forwards or 7/8 defensemen. It is usually young kids right? Or guys that are good enough to be starters but decided to sign with those teams to sit in the pressbox (and at team favorable contracts too). That's how it usually works, right?

Now you say that I am just speaking in hyperbole blah blah blah, but you won't actually give a reason as to who should be sitting in the pressbox or why it is detrimental to have a veteran presence on a one year cap friendly deal other than the boiler plate "this team always has cap issues!" You don't like the Jay Rosehill deal, that's fine. Me neither. The guy sucks and we could definitely find a better 13th forward than Jay Rosehill. But complaining about Hal Gill on a one year, $700k contract to play in the rarest of situations just complaining for the sake of complaining. That's not blindly defending anyone. Perhaps if you gave me a reason aside from "this team always has cap problems" or "they had Kris Newbury at one point" as to why HAL GILL'S contract is an issue, then maybe I'll see your point.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah good point. Let me ask you this, who should be the 13th/14th forward and 7th/8th defenseman on an NHL team? I guess looking around the league, most teams have guys on great contracts who really should be starting that are sitting in the pressbox. Very few teams have veteran guys who are true 13/14 forwards or 7/8 defensemen. It is usually young kids right? Or guys that are good enough to be starters but decided to sign with those teams to sit in the pressbox (and at team favorable contracts too). That's how it usually works, right?

Now you say that I am just speaking in hyperbole blah blah blah, but you won't actually give a reason as to who should be sitting in the pressbox or why it is detrimental to have a veteran presence on a one year cap friendly deal other than the boiler plate "this team always has cap issues!" You don't like the Jay Rosehill deal, that's fine. Me neither. The guy sucks and we could definitely find a better 13th forward than Jay Rosehill. But complaining about Hal Gill on a one year, $700k contract to play in the rarest of situations just complaining for the sake of complaining. That's not blindly defending anyone. Perhaps if you gave me a reason aside from "this team always has cap problems" or "they had Kris Newbury at one point" as to why HAL GILL'S contract is an issue, then maybe I'll see your point.

Hal Gill's contract is an issue because it shows the Flyers are far more eager to keep a washed up vet on the roster as the steady #8 guy (what other team even HAS that? None that I know of, because it's a waste of contract and cap) instead of letting their prospects get a shot if need be.

Once again showing they're awful at D development, and love to make frivolous cap decisions.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Hahahaha. When they signed Gus? When they signed him he was an AHLer, a prospect. Gus' replacement next year if he leaves won't be his current equal. Completely different situation.

Again, you can say that now but there is nothing to support it. You don't know what is going to happen. I'm not even convinced that Gus will be leaving. IF Gus leaves and IF a worse guy is brought in and IF it's on a worse contract, then we can talk about this. But acting like it is a foregone conclusion that Gus is gone and his replacement is John Scott at $4 million per year is silly. Let's see what happens before we talk about this.

Gus showed he should be on the bottom pairing last season. This season he proved that beyond any reasonable doubt. He has been a good player, and as a Dman he still has room to improve and grow with experience. You can try to marginalize that by calling him a bottom pairing D as much as you want, but considering the fact that we lack a #1 right now, being able to roll a damned competent bottom pairing with Gus and Luke is important. You just seem really desperate to write Gus off as hard as you can to defend the Flyers' questionable choices with his handling.

27 games last season and he earned the spot. 27 this year and he has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt. Fair enough. If that's the sample size you want to use that's fine. And again, I'm not saying we should let Gus walk. I'm not saying he sucks. I'm simply saying he's a bottom pairing guy and if he does walk, I'm confident his replacement will be around his level and around his cap hit. Maybe even around his age. We'll see.

We have a cheap, good, roster player sitting on the bench. He's on the bench because the Flyers can't get over big, crappy veterans. This bodes poorly for future D development, whether you want to admit it or not. Gus isn't like Bartulis, who WAS a fringe #6 guy (though he was handled pretty crappily as well). Gus has made it as clear as possible that he should be playing consistently, and he isn't. That's bad.

Perhaps that is true. Like I've said for a while, I don't have any objection to putting Gus on the ice. I do have a problem with people acting like this team is going to make some huge mistake this offseason regarding Gus or bringing in some other unknown 7th defenseman who will be overpaid.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Again, you can say that now but there is nothing to support it. You don't know what is going to happen. I'm not even convinced that Gus will be leaving. IF Gus leaves and IF a worse guy is brought in and IF it's on a worse contract, then we can talk about this. But acting like it is a foregone conclusion that Gus is gone and his replacement is John Scott at $4 million per year is silly. Let's see what happens before we talk about this.

Your hypothetical isn't going to happen though. There aren't roster ready Dmen of equivalent skill hitting free agency on cheaper or equal contracts. Can you find a single example? IF he goes, there is no easy replacement.

27 games last season and he earned the spot. 27 this year and he has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt. Fair enough. If that's the sample size you want to use that's fine. And again, I'm not saying we should let Gus walk. I'm not saying he sucks. I'm simply saying he's a bottom pairing guy and if he does walk, I'm confident his replacement will be around his level and around his cap hit. Maybe even around his age. We'll see.

Wow. Flyers Hockey! This is precisely the mindset that has caused 4 decades of failure developing their own defensemen. It's like having a conversation with the embodiment of the organization.

Perhaps that is true. Like I've said for a while, I don't have any objection to putting Gus on the ice. I do have a problem with people acting like this team is going to make some huge mistake this offseason regarding Gus or bringing in some other unknown 7th defenseman who will be overpaid.

Dude, I've explained this more times than I can remember. It's not just about Gus, it's about the bigger thing he and his handling represent. It's about how the organization has handled him and what it says about their ability to develop D. The fact that he is the 7th dman is a bit ridiculous to begin with, especially with the way several dmen get unlimited chances over him while he gets benched for long stretches without having actually done anything to warrant it. It bodes really, really poorly for the org's ability to develop Dmen, especially considering their absurdly bad history. Gus has made it so blatant that he deserves a spot on the roster that many, many fans are questioning why he isn't playing. Everyone but those closest to the situation can see it, and they continue giving carte blanche to "proven" guys who aren't playing as well.

Their last few attempts at developing their own franchise dmen from the ground up in the last decade have all ended poorly. Nothing we have seen from what SHOULD be the very simple and very basic development of Gus gives any reason to believe the Flyers aren't likely to botch a few of their current prospects.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Your hypothetical isn't going to happen though. There aren't roster ready Dmen of equivalent skill hitting free agency on cheaper or equal contracts. Can you find a single example? IF he goes, there is no easy replacement.

I do not have a specific replacement and I don't pretend to be an expert on every player like most people on here do (which is why I said lets wait and see what happens before we jump off the bridge). There are some guys that I would be comfortable with going into the season. How about Mike Kostka from Tampa Bay? I'd say he's about the same level as Gus (now you can tell me why Gus's 80 NHL games are so much more impressive and more meaningful than Kostka's 60 NHL games). Right around the same age too. Seems to have better numbers, advanced and regular as well. Will he be available? Idk. Will the Flyers be interested. Idk. What will he sign for? Idk. Let's see what happens, maybe? Nah...let's jump to conclusions and say my hypothetical replacement is not possible but your hypothetical replacement is.

Wow. Flyers Hockey! This is precisely the mindset that has caused 4 decades of failure developing their own defensemen. It's like having a conversation with the embodiment of the organization.

Sorry. Nevermind. No chance the Flyers find a comparable player in UFA (or hell, even RFA potentially) IF Gus even leaves. I'm an idiot and the only solution is to make Gus the #5/6 defenseman and have another young guy as #7.

Dude, I've explained this more times than I can remember. It's not just about Gus, it's about the bigger thing he and his handling represent. It's about how the organization has handled him and what it says about their ability to develop D. The fact that he is the 7th dman is a bit ridiculous to begin with, especially with the way several dmen get unlimited chances over him while he gets benched for long stretches without having actually done anything to warrant it. It bodes really, really poorly for the org's ability to develop Dmen, especially considering their absurdly bad history. Gus has made it so blatant that he deserves a spot on the roster that many, many fans are questioning why he isn't playing. Everyone but those closest to the situation can see it, and they continue giving carte blanche to "proven" guys who aren't playing as well.

Their last few attempts at developing their own franchise dmen from the ground up in the last decade have all ended poorly. Nothing we have seen from what SHOULD be the very simple and very basic development of Gus gives any reason to believe the Flyers aren't likely to botch a few of their current prospects.

Oh, you've explained it already? Sorry, I guess that means you are right.

I fail to see how the organization's "handling" of Gus is representative of anything other than their handling of Gus. You are talking about their inability to develop defensemen, but in your mind Gus is already an established NHL defender by your standards. What needs to be developed? It sounds like they have developed him and are not satisfied with the product. I am as frustrated as you about the lack of franchise defensemen with this team in my lifetime. But Gus's future or potential or whatever is not some symptom of a larger problem. Poor drafting may be a better issue to complain about. You're just mad he isn't playing, not mad at the way he has been developed...unless of course, you don't think he has developed into an NHL defender.

I don't know of too many other young defensemen this team has failed to develop (that had a legit shot to be something, of course). Sbisa was traded but he was never really going to be a #1 here or anywhere. Pitkannen IIRC had a number of issues that really weren't related to anything the Flyers really could have done. Coburn turned out ok, although he was acquired via trade, though at a steal of a deal (he's irreplaceable isn't he?). Schenn seems to be progressing nicely, though again, acquired via trade. What other defensive prospects have failed to develop? I'm not saying there aren't any, just none are coming to mind right now. Again, better drafting of defensemen may be something to complain about and I'm cool with that (I wanted Hamilton in Couturier's draft year and Matta in Laughton's year...don't hear too many folks complaining about those picks), but I am struggling to remember any cases of defensemen that have been ruined or squandered by this team.

 

[flyguy]

its a little more complicated than that

I hereby nominate this for the playoff avatar