How much do athletes deserve to make?

[cptjeff]

I think what they make is fine, certainly compared to the old days where they made much, much less. Why? Because back then, teams were often still pulling in a shiatload of money, but it was all flowing to the owners rather than the players. I'm perfectly fine with the people who are the actual attraction getting a payday commensurate with the amount of money they're bringing into the team.

If fans pay what they do for tickets and sell out arenas, that money has to go somewhere. I would much, much rather see that money go to the on ice talent rather than excursively to the pockets of some billionaire (or multimillionare).

In an ideal world, tickets would be a lot cheaper and there would be less money to go around, or entertainment would be taxed at a decent rate so we could give it to people who actually perform valuable service to the community- like those fat cat union teachers living on 50k a year (for those who don't follow US politics closely, that was sarcasm based on some republican arguments of late). But we don't live in that world, and as long as lots of people are willing to pay relatively small amounts for entertainment, the entertainment industry will be printing money. And I would much rather see that go to the actual talent rather than the middlemen. Same reason I hate the MPAA and RIAA- they drastically cut down on the amount of money the actual performer gets. When you buy a CD, the performer gets about a dime, and production and shipping costs about $1. Where does the rest of your $20 go?

Same issue with athletes. Yeah, the dollar figures are big, but the alternative is much bigger dollar figures for the people who already have millions upon millions of dollars.

 

[GarfSnowed]

Entertainment + Audience + Merchandise= Revenue/profit

ie. Red Wings + Sold out crowd and TV contract/audience + Jerseys, hats, shirts, etc.= Lots of money

Note: Merchandise is split between NHL and team

If you want to generate this revenue, you need to spend money on players to get attention and more profit

If you think about it, the NHL is 75% business (at least these days) and the rest is entertainment

 

[RandV]

I'd be interested to know how internet forums mean society is 'backwards'.

Also, some athletes will be millionaires no matter what, but not all. In almost every case, those that get paid the massive $$ are those who participate in sports which make heaps of $$. As it's the players who people pay to see play, this seems to make sense.

How much should athlete's be paid? IMO it should be linked to how much the sport is in bringing in.

Doesn't really work that way though. There are thousands of athletes, and thousands of teachers. Professional athletes in the NHL/NBA/whatever get paid the big bucks because they're the best in the world at what they do. When people bring up this argument comparing an NHLer to a high school teacher they never look at the guys playing in the AHL/ECHL/etc for what is considering the career length only a moderate wage. Have you ever considered how much a tenured professor at a prestigious university makes?

 

[5lidyzer19]

The answer to this question was the same one I answered my first day on HF boards.

I'm a long time lurker of HF boards and avid fan of hockey. I also happen to be an aspiring CPA. This thread interested me enough to finally register and post because I just HAVE to clear up some things with people.

There are two types of employees. Those who are overhead expenses and those who generate the revenue. People who "make it rain" always receive higher compensation. When I become a staff accountant at a CPA firm, one of the reasons I won't make the same as a partner is because I don't draw clients into the firm for more revenue. I would just be working on audit/tax as an overhead expense.

Sports stars generate the revenue. Since Steve Yzerman is my childhood hero, I will use him as my example. What dollar value did he represent to the Red Wings? How many $200 jerseys were in the stands with Yzerman on the back? How many fans came night after night after night for YEARS paying $100 for tickets, $20 for parking and $8 for beer because Steve Yzerman was an attraction inside that arena? How many additional viewers tuned in on TV allowing the Red Wings to sell advertising space and TV rights to their games? What value does Crosby have to the Penguins? What value does Manning have for the Colts? You see, as an owner, if my people forecast a player will bring in 50 million over the next 5 years, I have no problem paying him 8 million a year over those 5 years. I get 10 million in profit that I would not have otherwise had access to. The player is entitled to his share because without him I get nothing, but without me, he also has no where to use his skill and earn this kind of money. If I don't pay them, they will move to the next owner, who surely will. Now what is my showcase attraction to draw in revenue? There are many things that complicate this equation and situation, but that should give people an IDEA of what I mean.

Not to mention it is these revenue and cash flow streams that allow franchises to boost their selling value. IE The value of the Cleveland Cavs will fall in half if Lebron leaves. Why? Because the cash flows and revenue generating ability of the firm will fall off the face of the planet. If Lebron James increases the value of his owners franchise by 100 million off the top and practically gaurentees 20,000 fans paying for seats (and beer, pizza, shirts, foam fingers) night in and night out for the length of his contract, why would he not be entitled to a large contract of say $100 million? Hell, the owners will be HAPPY to give him 100 million because they know he's worth AT LEAST twice that to them.

Additionally...

There are less than 1000 people in the ENTIRE world who can play hockey at an NHL level. They cannot be replaced with some scrub off the street like me. Any profession where you are at the top, you will make HUGE money. Take the top 500 managers (fortune 500 CEO), best 500 lawyers, best 500 doctors, and they all make high compensation(even compared to a regular doctor or manager). If there's 100 people in a room, and I'm the only one who can do something, I'm going to make money doing it. IE a room might have 1 person (me) who understands how to do a net operating loss carry forward, but 100 of them can cut grass. Who gets paid more for each job?

You must also consider the effect of taxes, fees to lawyers/accountants, unions, escrow, and this is their one shot to secure financial security for them and their family. On average, these guys have short careers. They may be done by 30 or 40 and live until 80. That's a long time to live off your money with inflation eating away at it. IE a million today isn't still a million in 20 years. Just like 1 million today is a lot less than 1 million was 20 years ago.

So many more factors go into pay than many people realize. It's not just their on the ice production. It's silly to question the players "right" to this money.

But what would I know

 

[ponder]

As neat conceptually it would be to have these guys making what they made in the earlier years (where alot of players had to have offseason jobs), it's hard to say how much they "deserve" to make-it would be interesting to see NOW if Gary Bettman and the owners decided to start paying even CFL wages (very few players in the CFL make millions, more low 6 digit figures), it would be interesting to see what, if any effect that would have on players coming up (at the very least, it would probably cut down on the players "in it for the money" and really bring up those who have a passion for the game).

What would happen is that they would simply play in a different league, that actually payed them properly. The NHL would essentially become what the ECHL is now, a second class league full of second class players, that nobody really cares about. Believe it or not, high end pro-sports teams generate a lot of income, but they only do so because they contain the "best of the best," people aren't really that interested in watching guys who they know are just "pretty good," they won't pay much to watch second class athletes. If the NHL were paying their athletes $100,000 per year on average, at first a lot would leave for European leagues that paid them way more on average, because THESE PLAYERS WOULD BE WORTH WAY MORE THAN $100,000 PER YEAR IN INCREASED REVENUES FOR A TEAM. And eventually a new league would spring up in North America that started paying the top hockey players what they're worth, and nobody would watch the NHL with it's 2nd tier athletes.

 

[mike14]

Doesn't really work that way though. There are thousands of athletes, and thousands of teachers. Professional athletes in the NHL/NBA/whatever get paid the big bucks because they're the best in the world at what they do. When people bring up this argument comparing an NHLer to a high school teacher they never look at the guys playing in the AHL/ECHL/etc for what is considering the career length only a moderate wage. Have you ever considered how much a tenured professor at a prestigious university makes?

What doesn't work that way?

Athlete's who play in sports which bring in lots of $$, make lots of $$. That's what I said, and in 99% of cases that's correct.

No, I've never considered how much any type of professor makes, but that's because I don't care....

 

[Dado]

Good heavens. The typical teacher is 1000x easier to replace than the typical professional hockey player. If anything, teachers are over paid relative to hockey players.

Anyway, it's all moot, both professions "deserve" to get paid as much as fans are willing to pay them.

 

[GarfSnowed]

What doesn't work that way?

Athlete's who play in sports which bring in lots of $$, make lots of $$. That's what I said, and in 99% of cases that's correct.

No, I've never considered how much any type of professor makes, but that's because I don't care....

Read my equation above (supports your case)

 

[5lidyzer19]

No, I've never considered how much any type of professor makes, but that's because I don't care....

A professor at a reputable university probably makes $200,000+ a year. A high school teacher is like an IHL player and a University professor is like the NHLer in their feild.

There are millions of intelligent people who aren't even teachers that could step in and easily fill the role of teacher. There's less than 50 people in the world who could step in and be an NHL franchise player.

 

[MoreOrr]

My questions would be:

How much do the great majority of NHL players need to make in order not to abandon the NHL for another league?

And secondly, is the League currently paying beyond that for the great majority of players?

In other words, how much do they need to be paid in order to keep them in the NHL stable?

 

[mike14]

A professor at a reputable university probably makes $200,000+ a year. A high school teacher is like an IHL player and a University professor is like the NHLer in their feild.

There are millions of intelligent people who aren't even teachers that could step in and easily fill the role of teacher. There's less than 50 people in the world who could step in and be an NHL franchise player.

That's wonderful.

I'm glad to see that you seem to agree with me about the players getting paid though

 

[MoreOrr]

A professor at a reputable university probably makes $200,000+ a year. A high school teacher is like an IHL player and a University professor is like the NHLer in their feild.

There are millions of intelligent people who aren't even teachers that could step in and easily fill the role of teacher. There's less than 50 people in the world who could step in and be an NHL franchise player.

Millions! Huh...

 

[5lidyzer19]

My questions would be:

How much do the great majority of NHL players need to make in order not to abandon the NHL for another league?

And secondly, is the League currently paying beyond that for the great majority of players?

In other words, how much do they need to be paid in order to keep them in the NHL stable?

That would be very hard to answer.

Alot of NHL player probably grew up with the NHL, the idea of a Stanley cup being the ultimate prize, know/idolized the teams/players, know the culture of America/Canada, and the language. Even if a league did come to rival the NHL (not bloodly likely with the position of dominance the NHL holds), money might not be enough.

I know if I was actually good enough to play in the NHL, making 12 million a year in the KHL wouldn't be enough for me to leave the United States and the NHL if I was making...say 7 million a year. Money isn't everything, and at some point making X more wouldn't matter to me.

 

[5lidyzer19]

Millions! Huh...

Yes. There is no doubt in my mind that as a 5th year accounting student I could step down and teach high school math...or geography...English or *insert class here*.

I would bet there are many like me.

 

[MoreOrr]

Yes. There is no doubt in my mind that as a 5th year accounting student I could step down and teach high school math...or geography...English or *insert class here*.

I would bet there are many like me.

Not to take this OT, but I assume therefore that you didn't have very qualified teachers when you were in school. It seems to be the most unappreciated job that exists in the US.... quite sad actually, though perhaps you just really do have a lot of poorly qualified teachers there.

Oh, I'm assuming you're in the US, if you're not then what I said still applies to at least the teachers you personally had.

 

[5lidyzer19]

Not to take this OT, but I assume therefore that you didn't have very qualified teachers when you were in school. It seems to be the most unappreciated job that exists in the US.... quite sad actually, though perhaps you just really do have a lot of poorly qualified teachers.

If you consider professors with Phd's unqualified then all means I was educated by poorly qualified teachers.

I think you vastly over estimate the difficulty of high school and the level of material covered and presented. How hard would it be for me to teach a high school level algebra or statistics class? An INTRO college course will cover that entire years worth of material in literally 2 weeks. Then move on to vastly higher difficulty levels and depth.

Obviously, there's more to teaching then just simply presenting material. You need to be able to teach to different learning styles and help the kids ect ect, but I think many INTELLIGENT people could become teachers. There's a reason they only make like $30,000 a year and it's not because they are difficult to replace.

Edit: I will say that I do hold a slight bias against high school teachers because I had an internship in a school district administration office under the direction of a CPA during part of my college years. Quite frankly, the amount of sick time/vacation abuse (in a job that works less than half the year to begin with) and the negotiating tactics of the Union when contracts were up was sickening.

 

[Retire91]

they deserve much less than they get now. It's a complete joke, but a reality of capitalism...

Very well said, what athletes make these days makes me sick to my stomach but it is a reality of how capitalism works. I swear every time they zoom in on an athlete that got that "**** everybody I'm a millionaire" look on their face. I am not a fan of socialism but when is enough enough while school teachers make 25000 a year guys make that in one practice. If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me lol.

 

[5lidyzer19]

Very well said, what athletes make these days makes me sick to my stomach but it is a reality of how capitalism works. I swear every time they zoom in on an athlete that got that "**** everybody I'm a millionaire" look on their face. I am not a fan of socialism but when is enough enough while school teachers make 25000 a year guys make that in one practice. If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me lol.

Did you skip over the entire thread?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Very well said, what athletes make these days makes me sick to my stomach but it is a reality of how capitalism works. I swear every time they zoom in on an athlete that got that "**** everybody I'm a millionaire" look on their face. I am not a fan of socialism but when is enough enough while school teachers make 25000 a year guys make that in one practice. If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me lol.

Thank god for small favors.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Very well said, what athletes make these days makes me sick to my stomach but it is a reality of how capitalism works. I swear every time they zoom in on an athlete that got that "**** everybody I'm a millionaire" look on their face. I am not a fan of socialism but when is enough enough while school teachers make 25000 a year guys make that in one practice. If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me lol.

So who gets all the money? You want the owners to make $100mil a year and the players to each make $20k a year. Sounds like a typical small business. The owner makes all the money and the workers are getting paid minimum wage and no health insurance. **** small business owners.

 

[5lidyzer19]

The owner makes all the money and the workers are getting paid minimum wage and no health insurance. **** small business owners.

Small business owners lack economies of scale to spread out their overhead so they can't offer the same higher wages/insurance that a larger corportation would be able to afford. It's not greed; it's reality.

They also are taking on all the risk, and probably work 80 hours weeks keeping their operation a float week by week.

Small business owners aren't just raking in mountains of cash at the expense of their poor workers...otherwise, they wouldn't be called small businesses for long because they would be growing.

 

[5lidyzer19]

Very well said, what athletes make these days makes me sick to my stomach but it is a reality of how capitalism works. I swear every time they zoom in on an athlete that got that "**** everybody I'm a millionaire" look on their face. I am not a fan of socialism but when is enough enough while school teachers make 25000 a year guys make that in one practice. If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me lol.

I'd really like to dig deeper into this line of thinking.

Say you're an engeneer and you created the lastest and greatest invention. It's worth tens of millions of dollars to you. BUT, you don't actually "work hard enough to earn this much". In your world, who gets the money? Do you just equally spread it to the teachers and police? Or do you think YOU should get all of the money because it's your idea and your new company?

 

[triggrman]

Taylor Swift made 45m last year, Carry Underwood 30m. I have no problem with what athlete's make.

 

[Killion]

You can't buy a McDonald's or a NHL franchise and expect a profit.

Why the Hell not?. If youve' done your own due dilly over location, demographics, population, competition etc and have half a brain you should be able to figure it out & project into the future as to your chances of success or failure. Plunk down the franchise fee, roll up your sleeves and get at er'. The "brand" itself is never enough, of course not, or is it a case of "TheMoreYouKnow the LessLikelyYouAreToSucceed"?. And want it that way for tax purposes or "other" reasons as seems to be the case with about 60% of the leagues ownership groups.....

 

[5lidyzer19]

Taylor Swift made 45m last year, Carry Underwood 30m. I have no problem with what athlete's make.

They aren't overpaid either. Again, they create value for others.

People can argue all they want about a doctor needing to study harder, work longer hours, and know more compared to a singer like Taylor Swift. The fact is that that is not the only way how pay is always determined.