How good was Mats Sundin?

[Cruor]

Go tournament per tournament. Notice that in a whc tournament a higher point per game is expected when playing more games. Since you play more games against italy and those sort of teams. Also notice that Sundin did not make one final without Forsberg apart from 91 when Forsberg was a junior.

I think Foppas PPG advantage vis-a-vis Sundin in tournaments played together (OG, WC, WHC) comes out as something like 1.2 PPG v.s. 1.18 PPG. Which is flip a coin territory. But you said that you never saw Sundin take over games like Foppa did, that is simply not true. Ask anyone who watched Sweden play during those years. Sundin in 1996 or 2003 was every bit as good as Forsberg on Tre Kronor, and probably even better.

 

[gary69]

With this I just disagree. Forsberg could single handedly turn a game around. I never saw Sundin do that. But of course he was very good.

Just for example, you should rewatch World Champs 1991 Sweden vs Finland (who had likes of Kurri and Selanne in their team at home ice) to see Sundin turning a game around.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Personally I think that Alfredsson and Sundin are very comparable, but this conversation has been had on this board many times and doesn’t need to be repeated here yet again.

Yes agreed.

I do want to say something about it.

Not a chance in hell.

 

[NyQuil]

I do want to say something about it.

Not a chance in hell.

Well, so much for me trying to be congenial.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sundin might very well be the most underrated player of all time. He's easily the best Leaf player and the best Swedish player of all time. Sundin had consistency and tegridy and did most of his production by himself since he played mostly with terrible linemates. And he did it while playing under huge pressure from the media and the fans in Toronto. Put Sundin in Anaheim between Selanne and Kariya were he could play without pressure and he would've been a multiple 100 point player too.

There's zero argument for Sundin being the best Swedish player of all time - that's Lidstrom.

 

[GlitchMarner]

It's BS that some people think he's a weak HoF induction. Victim of not being surrounded by enough talent or he would have a cup and would be seen in much better light. Outstanding player.

lol... people think Sundin is a weak HOF inductee?

I never see him mentioned as such on the HOH board. Maybe on the main board, but I don't take history-related discussions there seriously.

I can easily name dozens of Hall of Famers he's better than.

 

[McGarnagle]

This is more of an eye test evaluation than any statistical analysis, but probably worth mentioning anyway.

As a fan of a division rival, I respected that he was a good, consistent top line center. But I never felt like "oh no, Mats Sundin is on the ice, something's going to happen" like you would with the likes of Forsberg or Jagr.

 

[GMR]

Good player who spent most of his career surrounded by has-beens. Played with a lot of class and was captain in probably the most difficult market to play in. Put him on different teams, and you're looking at a more successful team career. Still, he did have a great individual career. No real hardware but he was a Hall of Famer. Legend in Toronto. Won a Gold Medal with Sweden.

 

[wetcoast]

There's zero argument for Sundin being the best Swedish player of all time - that's Lidstrom.

Even for best forward it's cleary Forsberg as well.

That being said Sundin gets under rated around these parts and IMO he was a better player (and Leaf) than say Dave Keon.

 

[BenchBrawl]

This is more of an eye test evaluation than any statistical analysis, but probably worth mentioning anyway.

As a fan of a division rival, I respected that he was a good, consistent top line center. But I never felt like "oh no, Mats Sundin is on the ice, something's going to happen" like you would with the likes of Forsberg or Jagr.

Same. Perfect way to describe him as an opponent.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Even for best forward it's cleary Forsberg as well.

That being said Sundin gets under rated around these parts and IMO he was a better player (and Leaf) than say Dave Keon.

Yeah yeah. Surely there's still more than one Leaf that was better for the Leafs than him.

 

[Goleafsgo95]

lol... people think Sundin is a weak HOF inductee?

I never see him mentioned as such on the HOH board. Maybe on the main board, but I don't take history-related discussions there seriously.

I can easily name dozens of Hall of Famers he's better than.

I've seen a lot of "if Sundin is in then so and so has to be in" as if he's a low benchmark for the HoF. Not only was he worthy of his induction, but his first ballot selection was also a no-brainer. So many players have ups and downs throughout their career; Sundin's consistency year in year out was remarkable and something very few players have matched. And as others have stated, his point totals don't do his overall impact justice. His International resume is incredible.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah yeah. Surely there's still more than one Leaf that was better for the Leafs than him.

Sure Apps as a forward but there is very little reason to have Keon over Sundin.

 

[Stephen]

There's zero argument for Sundin being the best Swedish player of all time - that's Lidstrom.

While I tend to agree, it's still interesting the fact that whenever Sweden assembled its international teams, Sundin was always the captain and fulcrum of the team Lidstrom wasn't.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe it's not as useful to compare Sundin to an even more anachronistic example, but I think of him as Toronto's Ron Francis. Consistently high end number one franchise center, but maybe not the most glamorous statistical numbers and not extremely exciting in style...

If Mark Schiefele keeps doing what he's doing for another decade, maybe that's a good Sundin example.

 

[sr edler]

Mats Sundin is not a big mystery. When he played with the national team, he would get the crazy eyes sometimes. Especially against Finland. I never saw him with the crazy eyes in the NHL. Forsberg had that temperament on him more unlatently and for his club team. Sundin even said so in an old newspaper interview I read once that playing against Finland was a special thing for him, for some reason, so I guess you can say he was a bit old school pre-fall of the Berlin Wall in that sense. Which effectively would make him a mercenary in the NHL, just a very loyal one with some big skills. Like a Patrick Ewing or something.

We've already had a couple of Sundin threads though kinda lately, so this almost feels like a new annual New Years Eve tradition, talking about Mats. Mats is also two players: the skinny lanky fleet footed guy with rosy cheeks flying on the wing against the Soviets and in Québec, and the big kinda slow consistent tank big-slapshot captain putting on all that weight in Toronto who occasionally would lit up the Calgary Flames or the Florida Panthers with a hat-trick and two assists for a 5 point night in the regular season.

As for Sundin playing physically for the national team, I don't think he did that much. He was also old-school in that sense, that he wasn't a dump and chase and crash-the-crease/throw-your-body-around guy like early Mikael Renberg or Tomas Sandström. His type wasn't supposed to throw his body around like that. Why would you do that when you're supposed to dominate with skill and reach? He had more of a Sven Tumba type of aura going on. Big guy with a big smile.

 

[sr edler]

Sundin had consistency and tegridy

Most players wish they had just half the tegridy Sundin had.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Most players wish they had just half the tegridy Sundin had.

I looked the word up and found out there's a South Park episode called Tegridy Farms...

Tegridy Farms - Wikipedia

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is more of an eye test evaluation than any statistical analysis, but probably worth mentioning anyway.

As a fan of a division rival, I respected that he was a good, consistent top line center. But I never felt like "oh no, Mats Sundin is on the ice, something's going to happen" like you would with the likes of Forsberg or Jagr.

You nailed it. Sundin was a very good player and consistent as a Leaf but never showed the extra notch he did playing for the national team (imo).

In his NHL career he always left you wanting more..

 

[The Panther]

I think Sundin was outstanding and one of the greatest forwards of his era. And although it's an unpopular opinion, I also think he is the greatest performing (I'm not going to say "greatest" alone, because that somehow implies championships won) Toronto Maple Leaf ever.

When you play on a low-talent team in the world's #1 pressure market, when you are that team's captain and leading scorer every year, and you are the most consistent scorer in NHL history, you're doing a lot right.

Here's how he finished in scoring on the NHL teams he played more-or-less full seasons for, chronologically:
Quebec: 2, 2, 1, 2 (the 2's here are all to Sakic)
Toronto: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1

That's absolutely amazing. Throw in his stellar international rep, and he's a slam-dunk Hall of Famer -- no 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts'.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Even for best forward it's cleary Forsberg as well.

That being said Sundin gets under rated around these parts and IMO he was a better player (and Leaf) than say Dave Keon.

I think Sundin was outstanding and one of the greatest forwards of his era. And although it's an unpopular opinion, I also think he is the greatest performing (I'm not going to say "greatest" alone, because that somehow implies championships won) Toronto Maple Leaf ever.

When you play on a low-talent team in the world's #1 pressure market, when you are that team's captain and leading scorer every year, and you are the most consistent scorer in NHL history, you're doing a lot right.

Here's how he finished in scoring on the NHL teams he played more-or-less full seasons for, chronologically:
Quebec: 2, 2, 1, 2 (the 2's here are all to Sakic)
Toronto: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1

That's absolutely amazing. Throw in his stellar international rep, and he's a slam-dunk Hall of Famer -- no 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts'.

Those are almost crazy statements from my perspective. But no big deal, I make a lot of crazy statements myself

Even ignoring championships I don't see why this criteria of leading your team in scoring would matter more than where you stand around the league.

Mats Sundin finished Top 10 in NHL scoring TWICE. That's not a lot. In 2001-2002 he finished 8th in Hart voting, his only Top 10 for the trophy.

Compare that to Syl Apps, who finished Top 10 in NHL scoring six times. His Hart record, all in five consecutive years, is as follow: 2, 2, 3, 2, 3. Plus he lost years to WWII. This is an all-time great 5 years stretch for Hart voting.

And that's just scratching the surface, and it's just Syl Apps. Many others.

 

[BenchBrawl]

@wetcoast and @The Panther, are you the same person?

 

[wetcoast]

Those are almost crazy statements from my perspective. But no big deal, I make a lot of crazy statements myself

Even ignoring championships I don't see why this criteria of leading your team in scoring would matter more than where you stand around the league.

Mats Sundin finished Top 10 in NHL scoring TWICE. That's not a lot. In 2001-2002 he finished 8th in Hart voting, his only Top 10 for the trophy.

Compare that to Syl Apps, who finished Top 10 in NHL scoring six times. His Hart record, all in five consecutive years, is as follow: 2, 2, 3, 2, 3. Plus he lost years to WWII. This is an all-time great 5 years stretch for Hart voting.

And that's just scratching the surface, and it's just Syl Apps. Many others.

It's kind of weird that I didn't mention Apps in the 38th post upthread?

My initial post was about the gap some people have for Keon over Sundin.

 

[The Panther]

Sure, a strong case can be made for Syl Apps. I guess my question would be: How much support did Apps have vs. Sundin's?

Just for fun, here's how Syl Apps finished in scoring on the Leafs:
1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 5 (injuries), (war), (war), 3, 2, 1

It's true that Sundin finished top-10 in scoring only twice, but he was competing with a much larger and deeper talent pool of forwards than a 1930s/40s' player. To put it another way, while Apps does (and should) rank higher in history than Sundin, I still think Sundin might be the best-performing Leaf ever (i.e., just looking at that organization alone). I mean, Sundin has more season-end All Stars (two) than Steve Yzerman.

I'll grant you Apps is the best case for being ahead of Sundin. Would you put any other Leaf above him, though?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Sure, a strong case can be made for Syl Apps. I guess my question would be: How much support did Apps have vs. Sundin's?

Just for fun, here's how Syl Apps finished in scoring on the Leafs:
1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 5 (injuries), (war), (war), 3, 2, 1

It's true that Sundin finished top-10 in scoring only twice, but he was competing with a much larger and deeper talent pool of forwards than a 1930s/40s' player. To put it another way, while Apps does (and should) rank higher in history than Sundin, I still think Sundin might be the best-performing Leaf ever (i.e., just looking at that organization alone). I mean, Sundin has more season-end All Stars (two) than Steve Yzerman.

I'll grant you Apps is the best case for being ahead of Sundin. Would you put any other Leaf above him, though?

OK, but what about Hart record? Apps was a Top 3 player in the NHL - according to Hart voting - for five consecutive seasons. You think the league was so bad in his era that this doesn't justify putting him above a guy who only finished 8th once in a very long career?

There are a lot of Toronto players I'd rank over Sundin. Just on top of my head I'd definitely have Kennedy, Apps, Conacher, Horton, Keon, Cameron, Jackson, Bower, Broda over him, and I try to ignore the multi-team careers like Mahovlich and company, many of which might have accomplished more in their shorter stint in Toronto than Sundin ever did. But I'll let the Leafs fans put together a more rigorous list if they feel like it.

Sundin might be close in Toronto value to a guy like say Jimmy Thomson.