How do you want the Pens to play?

steveg

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Jul 8, 2012
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I think pigeonholing line identities can lead to handicapping your lineup without actually needing to. Sutter would let Z and Joey V do their thing on the forecheck and create havoc on the O-zone while giving them a steady center presence throughout the neutral zone the ice and in the D-zone. Goc > Sutter, which is why Goc is on the 3rd line and would be getting more minutes anyways.

Some good points you made, to me saying I didn't like Sutter on a 4th line.

I guess if you make him the "F3" while you send Harry Z. and Joey V. in on a hard forecheck, that might work...even though I don't see him as ideal/too soft in a 4th line role....

I do agree with Goc > Sutter, and thus Goc at L3-C

Interesting.
 

steveg

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I've always wondered if that was urban legend.
Bowman if nothing else would adapt even from shift to shift....

Maybe, though, Bowman was preaching it, but wasn't getting much "buy-in" from the players, until Mario spoke up about it...who knows.
 

Terrapin

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Mar 6, 2007
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Since nearly everyone voted for speed and tenacious, I'll be the tool that votes for defense and transition.

Personally I don't think they have the roster to be successful either way, but my big reason for defense is that it really is a different game in the playoffs. Clutching, grabbing, etc will slow down our 'speed'. Plus, since our speed guys (gibbons, megna, Z, etc) are drastically undersized, I'm not sure how long they'd last against a big, physical team. Not to mention those guys are basically rookies, and it's pretty easy to get badly out of position playing at breakneck speed.

We also don't have the personnel to grind teams down, check them into next week, wreak havoc in front of nets, etc, but it's a safer style that would better suit this team now.

Kunitz-Sid-Bennett
Joki-Malkin-Neal
Megna-Goc-Stemp
Glass-Sutter-Vitale/Engo

Letang-Martin
Maata-Nisky
Orpik-Scuderi

Next year get rid of Jokinen, Sutter, Adams, Glass, and Orpik.
Bring in a few legitimate bottom 6 maniacs.

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Megna-Goc-Chris Neil
Ryan Reaves-Vitale-Engo/Sill

Letang-Martin
Maata-Scuderi
Despres-Bort
Engo

Size, speed, toughness, agitators, etc. Only thing I don't like is Dupuis on the top line, but since Shero will never address that need, there's no use worrying about it.
 

cygnus47

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Sep 14, 2013
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I want them to stand firm at the blue line to make turnovers, use our quality puck moving D to retrieve and quick transition up to our forwards. Roam the ice in a tight group and be aggressive in the defensive zone to turn pucks over. We should get on the puck carrier fast in all zones to create pressure and force the other team to make passes through us and not just carry the puck into our zone. We don't have the size or speed to forecheck and cycle and wear down our opponents. We need to score and keep our D away from forecheckers.
 

ColePens

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^ My problem with that is you let the play come to you. I rarely see that work in the playoffs. Typically the teams who attack win the Cup. Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Boston was surprisingly a tenacious team when they won.

Mark Madden is a huge proponent of wanting to see the Pens trap. I just never understood it. I like it better than the 1-2-2, but ultimately hate sitting.
 

Your Boy Troy

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Sep 19, 2013
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This is the line-up that I personally want to see for next season:

Forwards:

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett

Penner - Malkin - Neal

Dupuis - Sutter - Moss

Kassian - Sill - Machacek

Defenseman:

Martin - Letang

Maatta - Despres

Dumoulin - Bortuzzo
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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^ My problem with that is you let the play come to you. I rarely see that work in the playoffs. Typically the teams who attack win the Cup. Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Boston was surprisingly a tenacious team when they won.

Mark Madden is a huge proponent of wanting to see the Pens trap. I just never understood it. I like it better than the 1-2-2, but ultimately hate sitting.

Problem is can a team attack for 82 games+Cup run. With a roster of a number of players in their mid thirties, it's a legit question.

I have no problem altering trapping and and an aggressive forecheck.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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So much negativity, and rightfully so, but let's have a thread where we talk about some x's and o's. How do you want this team to play?

1) Fast and Tenacious (Similar to Isles/Toronto last season):

This line up would see a lot more of the little gritty guys who fly around with speed to create turnovers. We wouldn't be the strongest bunch, but every shift would be fast. The foreward lineup would be players such as Megna, Gibby, Conner, Vitale, Stemp, Dupers, etc. The idea would be to aggressively forecheck and try to out-skill/speed teams. The games would be fast and furious and up/down. Forechecking/backchecking like there is no tomorrow. The downfall would be getting outworked in the corners and dominating the hit category.

2) Defensive/Transition Offense (Similar to Boston/NJ):

We would try to get the line up more with the big guys who finish hits and grind down teams. Most likely line up in a 1-2-2 and even try to trap if we have a lead. That would lead straight into our transition offense to score goals. We do not want up/down games, we want slow tempo that we control. The down fall of that game would be the consistent pressure of 2-1 games.


3) Combination

This seems to be where we are now. Some games we can play defensive and some games offensive. The down fall would be lacking identity but the big pro would be attempting to play to whatever team we are playing. That makes us a little better with playoff matchups since we can play both styles. However, if an identity isn't established, it can cause quite a mess.



The idea of this thread is to commit to a playing style and post as to why you feel it would fit our team. You can use the current players we have to develop a roster. If you use players outside of the Pens, please try to keep it realistic as to who we can actually sign/afford.

It's either got to be fast and tenacious or the most passive 1-2-2 short of a full blow trap.

The problem with fast and tenacious is that the Pens, collectively, aren't fast enough to pull it off and lack the PMDs and depth of skill up front to play end to end, balls to the wall against teams that can capitalize on them doing it.

A more passive 1-2-2. We cannot spread out that 1-2-2, because we don't have the personnel to control that gap.

We seemed to do ok with a LW lock, which really just reconfigures the alignment with a comparable philosophy defensively.

You know, one thing that sticks out to me is that I always keep remembering how much the Pens used to struggle with the Teddy Nolan coached Islanders. And, the thing that always seemed interesting is that it was hard trying to identify what precisely they were trying to do, because they just seemed to mix it up shift to shift, as if they were using system matching like they'd use personnel matching. Not sure. Maybe I'm imagining in hindsight, but it always seemed that they defended different lines a little differently and depending upon their personnel, like they were trying to neutralize the talent gap just a little further that way.

Anyway, whether that's what they did or not, I think that's what I'd like to see. I'd like to see us mixing up the looks a little, so the other team can't identify patterns in terms of how we're playing.

I wouldn't even mind a little of the old Kevin Constantine approach. Balls to the wall, tenacious as heck, defensemen pinch everywhere when the puck is in play in the offensive zone, but fall back defensively if it's less than 50/50.

I just think Bylsma (and Shero) want to play hockey like the Hawks do, and the Pens don't have the personnel for it.

EDIT: Heck, maybe we mix it up depending upon what personnel are out there. Geno likes to lay back. Have his line go LWL or very soft 1-2-2. Let Sid's guys, once Kunitz is back, go tenacious. Have the guys play to their strengths instead of a one size fits all approach, because thinking Geno and Neal can forecheck like Sid and Kunitz or thinking Orpik and Scuderi can move the puck like Martin and Letang just doesn't fly.

^ My problem with that is you let the play come to you. I rarely see that work in the playoffs. Typically the teams who attack win the Cup. Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Boston was surprisingly a tenacious team when they won.

Mark Madden is a huge proponent of wanting to see the Pens trap. I just never understood it. I like it better than the 1-2-2, but ultimately hate sitting.

Cole, I wouldn't have everyone trapping. But, Geno's line, as I said, I'd let them trap. I don't like JMN, but JMN would be 10X better in the playoffs as a trapping line. I don't like Orpik or even Scuds out there, but they would be 10X better in the playoffs supporting a trap, LWL, or soft 1-2-2, because they can't control the gap of a more tenacious system. They don't have that step they had 5 years ago. Just my two cents.
 

vikingGoalie

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Oct 31, 2010
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I want the team we had prior to steckel. We punished teams. We hemmed them in their zone. Prior to the mario letter we were built for and played like a playoff team. Now we play like a team designed to help our stars get indivdual awards.
 

DegenX

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It's either got to be fast and tenacious or the most passive 1-2-2 short of a full blow trap.

The problem with fast and tenacious is that the Pens, collectively, aren't fast enough to pull it off and lack the PMDs and depth of skill up front to play end to end, balls to the wall against teams that can capitalize on them doing it.

A more passive 1-2-2. We cannot spread out that 1-2-2, because we don't have the personnel to control that gap.

We seemed to do ok with a LW lock, which really just reconfigures the alignment with a comparable philosophy defensively.

You know, one thing that sticks out to me is that I always keep remembering how much the Pens used to struggle with the Teddy Nolan coached Islanders. And, the thing that always seemed interesting is that it was hard trying to identify what precisely they were trying to do, because they just seemed to mix it up shift to shift, as if they were using system matching like they'd use personnel matching. Not sure. Maybe I'm imagining in hindsight, but it always seemed that they defended different lines a little differently and depending upon their personnel, like they were trying to neutralize the talent gap just a little further that way.

Anyway, whether that's what they did or not, I think that's what I'd like to see. I'd like to see us mixing up the looks a little, so the other team can't identify patterns in terms of how we're playing.

I wouldn't even mind a little of the old Kevin Constantine approach. Balls to the wall, tenacious as heck, defensemen pinch everywhere when the puck is in play in the offensive zone, but fall back defensively if it's less than 50/50.

I just think Bylsma (and Shero) want to play hockey like the Hawks do, and the Pens don't have the personnel for it.

EDIT: Heck, maybe we mix it up depending upon what personnel are out there. Geno likes to lay back. Have his line go LWL or very soft 1-2-2. Let Sid's guys, once Kunitz is back, go tenacious. Have the guys play to their strengths instead of a one size fits all approach, because thinking Geno and Neal can forecheck like Sid and Kunitz or thinking Orpik and Scuderi can move the puck like Martin and Letang just doesn't fly.



Cole, I wouldn't have everyone trapping. But, Geno's line, as I said, I'd let them trap. I don't like JMN, but JMN would be 10X better in the playoffs as a trapping line. I don't like Orpik or even Scuds out there, but they would be 10X better in the playoffs supporting a trap, LWL, or soft 1-2-2, because they can't control the gap of a more tenacious system. They don't have that step they had 5 years ago. Just my two cents.


As to the bolded, me, too. I voted for 'both'. Maybe it's a result of seeing game after game of Bylsma's inability to adapt, or adapting too late. I don't want the Pens to be a niche team, I'd like to see them play a complete game of hockey. Rather than see our weakness exploited, I'd like the Pens to be the ones doing the exploiting. To do that, they need to be capable of both the poll options, I think.
 

#66

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Dec 30, 2003
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Hard and fast. Very aggressive with structure in behind it.

Get back to banging on the end boards and play the entire ice instead of being so focused on half of it. More back door plays, more bait and lure, more crushing defensemen on the endboards and more puck management over chasing.

Pretty much everything they do right now and the team they've turned into.... I hate it with every fiber of my being. That goes for...

the on ice play
to a C that really needs to start acting like one
to a coach that has Sid and Malkin playing role player hockey
to a GM that constructs BS team
to and owner that needs to grow a pair

Change the culture and get back to being a hockey team instead of a money making fart in the wind. They need to untuck themselves already.
 

Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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^ My problem with that is you let the play come to you. I rarely see that work in the playoffs. Typically the teams who attack win the Cup. Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Boston was surprisingly a tenacious team when they won.

Mark Madden is a huge proponent of wanting to see the Pens trap. I just never understood it. I like it better than the 1-2-2, but ultimately hate sitting.

Trapping can be a good tactic if you counter-attack like crazy once you steal the puck. Just because the Devils bored us all to death with it 15 years ago doesn't mean that would be the case with the Penguins. It doesn't have to be the Penguins primary tactic, but it could work as a good fall back.
 

Fordy

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May 28, 2008
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I've seen zero evidence to suggest that Glass and Adams won't be our fourth line again next year.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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As to the bolded, me, too. I voted for 'both'. Maybe it's a result of seeing game after game of Bylsma's inability to adapt, or adapting too late. I don't want the Pens to be a niche team, I'd like to see them play a complete game of hockey. Rather than see our weakness exploited, I'd like the Pens to be the ones doing the exploiting. To do that, they need to be capable of both the poll options, I think.

We're not built or coached well enough to be predictable.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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Trapping can be a good tactic if you counter-attack like crazy once you steal the puck. Just because the Devils bored us all to death with it 15 years ago doesn't mean that would be the case with the Penguins. It doesn't have to be the Penguins primary tactic, but it could work as a good fall back.

I actually believed that when they brought Martin in as an assistant coach, this was the primary reason. That they recognized their previous playoff failures, and brought him in to teach a fallback way to play when the other team took Bylsma's favorite toy away in the playoffs.

Silly me.

They must have brought him in because he makes a mean poutine, or tells funny fart jokes.

Because it certainly was not because they recognized the problem and to help them in the playoffs in that way.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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After watching the Boston game tonight, I think we'd have a greater chance of beating them by alternating styles. We just can't match up with them up front. Their top 2 lines are just as good as they were last year, and in the playoffs, they showed they can match up with Sid and Geno very well. Soderberg is just a better hockey player than Sutter. And they have a 4th line that can actually cycle.
 

Speed Kills

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Going forward, (i.e, next season and beyond) it's tough to say, because who knows what the lineup will look like and what players they'll have at their disposal, but I think for finishing out this season, #1 would be the best and most feasible, IMO. Since Cole gave us ideal lineup freedom, I would roll with:

Kunitz-Crosby-Stempniak
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Jokinen-Goc-Megna
Zolnierczyk-Sutter-Vitale

Yesterday during the game, Byslma said he wanted to be a grindem down type of team. That left me scratching my head with our two top centers. So, I have always felt we were a mix. Speed and tenacity on our top two lines and grit and taking the body with our bottom 2 lines. But know with the line up we have I would love to see us go with a fast and tenacious. Wear the others teams down with our 4 lines and speed. I love this line up and might want to switch Megna and Stempniak. Megan looked great with Malkin before he got injured and yesterday he looked amazing with Crosby. It is nice to see a pens line up without glass and Adams on it.
 

MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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They don't have enough effective board players to play a "grinding" game, so I'll go for speed and attacking in layers.

I don't even see what the point of this is. They're completely lost, and as we heard yesterday, have no idea what their identity is.

If anyone thinks Megna and Vitale are going to be in the lineup during the playoffs, I have some very bad news for you.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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They don't have enough effective board players to play a "grinding" game, so I'll go for speed and attacking in layers.

I don't even see what the point of this is. They're completely lost, and as we heard yesterday, have no idea what their identity is.

If anyone thinks Megna and Vitale are going to be in the lineup during the playoffs, I have some very bad news for you.

 

billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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I wouldn't even mind a little of the old Kevin Constantine approach. Balls to the wall, tenacious as heck, defensemen pinch everywhere when the puck is in play in the offensive zone, but fall back defensively if it's less than 50/50.

I don't know if you're thinking of the Edzo Penguins or the Herb Penguins or Hlinka or what, but I had season tickets during Constantine's reign and this is not a description of Kevin Constantine hockey at all.

Kevin Constantine played a zero forechecker trap, had all 5 guys collapse to the hashmarks or below in their own zone and tried to beat you on either on the counter attack or special teams. Occasionally a D would float into the slot on special teams to try a surprise shot, but that's the only risk anybody took on his teams. There was nothing "balls to the wall" about the guy's hockey.

No sustained pressure, no pinching, no real cycling, nothing like that (well, Jagr cycled, but he was by himself doing it).

At 5 on 5, lull them to sleep, wait for a turnover, get to the offensive zone, create the best shot you can, get the eff back to the neutral zone.

There was nothing "tenacious" about those Penguins either. It was a bunch of soft North Americans with big shots (Ferraros, Barnes, Falloon, Serowik, Werenka, Hatcher) and a bunch of soft Europeans that could either make one on one plays (Kovalev, Jagr, Straka, Titov) or could finish from range (Lang, Kovalev, Jagr, Ignatjev, Morozov, Frederick "I once missed a month due to pain from a cracked tooth" Olausson).

Most of the rest of the lineup were minor leaguers Constantine knew from God knows where who trapped well...and that's all there was to them. "Dragon" Kesa, Martin Sonnenberg...if they contributed beyond diligent trapping, I'm dumbfounded as to what capacity it was in.

Kasparaitis, Tom Brass ass****,a handful of games by Matt Barnaby (I think he was a deadline acquisition the year just before Constantine was fired) and one minute ice time per three games from Tyler Wright does not a tenacious team make (Constantine wouldn't scratch him. He'd dress and get between zero shifts and half of one shift, depending on the score).

Edit:

Here. All of this stuff on display. Zero forecheckers. 5 guys at or below the hashmarks in the D zone. A brilliant individual play by Lang to the middle and a ripper by Kovalev.



That's how he beat you. Kill you with skill on the counter attack. More conservative than Lemaire in any other situation.
 
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KIRK

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I don't know if you're thinking of the Edzo Penguins or the Herb Penguins or Hlinka or what, but I had season tickets during Constantine's reign and this is not a description of Kevin Constantine hockey at all.

Kevin Constantine played a zero forechecker trap, had all 5 guys collapse to the hashmarks or below in their own zone and tried to beat you on either on the counter attack or special teams. Occasionally a D would float into the slot on special teams to try a surprise shot, but that's the only risk anybody took on his teams. There was nothing "balls to the wall" about the guy's hockey.

No sustained pressure, no pinching, no real cycling, nothing like that (well, Jagr cycled, but he was by himself doing it).

At 5 on 5, lull them to sleep, wait for a turnover, get to the offensive zone, create the best shot you can, get the eff back to the neutral zone.

There was nothing "tenacious" about those Penguins either. It was a bunch of soft North Americans with big shots (Ferraros, Barnes, Falloon, Serowik, Werenka, Hatcher) and a bunch of soft Europeans that could either make one on one plays (Kovalev, Jagr, Straka, Titov) or could finish from range (Lang, Kovalev, Jagr, Ignatjev, Morozov, Frederick "I once missed a month due to pain from a cracked tooth" Olausson).

Most of the rest of the lineup were minor leaguers Constantine knew from God knows where who trapped well...and that's all there was to them. "Dragon" Kesa, Martin Sonnenberg...if they contributed beyond diligent trapping, I'm dumbfounded as to what capacity it was in.

Kasparaitis, Tom Brass ass****,a handful of games by Matt Barnaby (I think he was a deadline acquisition the year just before Constantine was fired) and one minute ice time per three games from Tyler Wright does not a tenacious team make (Constantine wouldn't scratch him. He'd dress and get between zero shifts and half of one shift, depending on the score).

Yes and no. I was referring to what they'd do in the offensive zone. They'd cycle. Defensemen would pinch and forwards would rotate up. If the other team didn't have full control of the puck after say a shot, they'd pressure.

Now, if the other team did have control, then they'd fall back into the trap.

I'm not talking big hitting 'tenacious'. But, when they had the puck in the offensive zone or the other team hadn't established possession, they absolutely were aggressive.

I can assure you that the defensemen of a KC coached team are 10X more aggressive in the offensive zone than the defensemen of a DB coached team.

Of course, it helped that his forwards were 100X more responsible, but I digress . . .

EDIT: The video is a straw man. I was describing how the Pens, particularly their defensemen, played in the offensive zone, not how they fell back once the other team had possession. I apologize if that wasn't clear first go around.

EDIT TWO: Here's an interesting read . . . http://www.proambitions.com/PR/100202_teamdefense.htm. From a guy who played for KC, talking about pinching . . .

Pinching in the offensive end. I was always told that if I was 90% sure I could keep the puck in to pinch. If the puck is in the opposite corner and you are on the point and they wrap it all the way around to where you are, you always pinch. If the puck is on the boards near your winger you can pinch if you have a forward back to cover for you. Communicate, - yell - at your forwards to cover for you.

KC teams pinched a lot more than DB teams, and, as I said, were aggressive UNTIL the other team had established possession. Then, it was the full fall back mode you described.
 
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ozpensfan

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Nov 19, 2013
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The 2008 - 2010 team and not just because we won the cup in 2009 - Fast and physical play where Kunitz / Asham / Rupp ETC hit everything that moved and everytime you saw the 3rd and 4th lines come out you knew someone was going to get plastered. Throw in the skill level and that was exciting hockey to watch. Now you see our 4th line come out and its like oh the Orio line from the might ducks is coming to make a hit
 

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