How do you view the last 7 seasons as a Sens fan?

[Stylizer1]

The Senators are a borderline playoff team now without those high picks. I have no idea what your point is because, sure they were a playoff team with Bonk, Yashin and Daigle but they weren't a real contender without the contributions of Spezza, Hossa, and Alfredsson. The contribution of those "high picks" were negligible at best on the elite Senator teams of the 2000s.

Daigle, Bonk and Phillips weren't why the Senators were elite. Dumping Yashin for Spezza was the figurative move that really pushed the Sens to the top.

The coaching of the first wave of players is what positioned us to greatly improve down the road. We didn't become a cup contender over night. we had a very well coached team and added players. By the time Spezza came we were already one of the best teams in the league winning divisions.

The first year we made the playoffs it was Yashin, Alfredsson, Daigle, and Redden (our #2 D) leading us in scoring. Throw in some vets like Duchesne, Cunneyworth, and McEachern and you have the making of a good team. Lost to Buffalo in ovetime game 7.

The next season we upset NJ.

Our 3rd season making the playoffs is when we became on the cusp of being elite. We just ran into the sabers who had the best goalie in the league. That didn't change the fact that we were one of the top teams in the league, just hadn't learned playoff hockey yet.

Our foundation was in place before Havlat, Hossa, Chara, Spezza. They improved our team but it was those initial high picks were the reason we started making the playoffs. building off that with later picks filled out our team more,

In the end all of the above player didn't win us a championship.

I am saying we have no high end talent except for Karlsson and maybe Ryan if he stays. None of our picks will ever have the impact that Yashin did for us. By not get one of those high end players while we have been bad over the past few years will hurt us down the road. We have a lot of mid range picks but none of the top ones to fill out the roster.

Because management never wanted to bottom out we have the chance of being an average team for years to come.

 

[Xspyrit]

We don't have those top picks to build around.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/roster/?hubname=nhl-senators

10 players on the roster last year were original 1st round picks
6 of them were original top-6 picks
3 of them were original top-3 picks

Some people have some kind of fascination with the spot players were drafted...

Because management never wanted to bottom out we have the chance of being an average team for years to come.

lol.

This fanbase doesn't have the spin for that, not.even.close.

Look at the massive "panic mode/the sky is falling" mode around here (and the exodus from the CTC) during and after a season where the team had 8 less points (pro-rated) than the previous one (which was considered a great success by all the hockey world).

This place is a circus (but lot of free laughs so I enjoy it )

 

[Stylizer1]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/roster/?hubname=nhl-senators

10 players on the roster last year were original 1st round picks
6 of them were original top-6 picks
3 of them were original top-3 picks

Some people have some kind of fascination with the spot players were drafted...



lol.

This fanbase doesn't have the spin for that, not.even.close.

Look at the massive "panic mode/the sky is falling" mode around here (and the exodus from the CTC) during and after a season where the team had 8 less points (pro-rated) than the previous one (which was considered a great success by all the hockey world).

This place is a circus (but lot of free laughs so I enjoy it )

So what you are saying is there is no difference between the 1st overall and the 6th overall? As long as you draft in the first round you will get elite talent?

Sorry but none of those players from the sens roster compare to Yashin except for Spezza. Karlsson is good but not a Yashin type of player.

 

[Stylizer1]

Becoming a 7th/8th place team off of years of tanking does nothing to advocate for it as a strategy. Ottawa became at one point the best team in the league, and a multi-year cup contender through smart drafting much more than they did through tanking.

As far as the concept that Ottawa could have gotten Thornton or Lecavalier, or one of the Sedins had they tanked, that is asinine for a few reasons.

1) They were a playoff team, to tank and get 1st/2nd overall from 97-00 they'd have to trade away any good players they already had like Yashin, Redden, and Alfredsson. That would have been counter productive and would have made no sense. "We could try to win with the superstars we already have....or we could trade the superstars in order to sabotage our team.....and get more guys....who might be superstars". Tanking only works when your team stinks, and you decide to get rid of the final few band aids that are keeping it together, ala Buffalo with Vanek, Ott, and Miller who they traded as opposed to attempting to extend.

2) My entire point is that Ottawa still got superstars or players comparable to their tank picks in some of those drafts despite not tanking. First it's important to note, it wasn't the Sedins who were taken first in one of those drafts mentioned.....it was PATRIK STEFAN. That was the year Ottawa selected Havlat. Ottawa did tank in 1996.....and got Chris Phillips. Those years you mentioned, Ottawa got Fisher, Hossa, Havlat, and Volchenkov without having to trade away all their stars and tank.

If you compare every "tank" pick Ottawa ever had to the equivalent amount of their best picks every that they got outside of the top 10. The non-tank list is actually better.

We'll consider Yashin/Spezza a single entity, since they were pretty much swapped for one another. Ottawa didn't really tank to get Spezza, but the ability to draft him was earned by how valuable Yashin was, who was an Ottawa tank pick....hopefully that makes sense.

Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Phillips, Redden

compared to their arguably best 5 non-tank picks (not counting guys taken in the top 10)

Alfredsson, Karlsson, Hossa, Havlat, Fisher (although, there are probably others who might throw in a different name as the fifth).

As far as claiming Ottawa doesn't have the high draft pick guys to build around now, they actually do.

Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Phillips, Redden
compared to
Turris (3rd), Zibanejad (6th), Karlsson (15th, but it's fair to say he'd go at least 3rd if that draft were re-done today), Ryan (2nd, only a few years older than Yashin was during 97-00), Cowen (8th)

That is 1 elite player, 1 first line forward, 2 second line forwards, and Jared Cowen.

sorry but you are completely mixing up the discussion i am having. I was talking about the first years where Ottawa was bad, not tanking, and got high picks. those paved the way to us becoming a very good team and without those picks we would have not. I was never advocating for the sens of the past or the sens of the present to tank.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

The coaching of the first wave of players is what positioned us to greatly improve down the road. We didn't become a cup contender over night. we had a very well coached team and added players. By the time Spezza came we were already one of the best teams in the league winning divisions.

The first year we made the playoffs it was Yashin, Alfredsson, Daigle, and Redden (our #2 D) leading us in scoring. Throw in some vets like Duchesne, Cunneyworth, and McEachern and you have the making of a good team. Lost to Buffalo in ovetime game 7.

The next season we upset NJ.

Our 3rd season making the playoffs is when we became on the cusp of being elite. We just ran into the Sabres who had the best goalie in the league. That didn't change the fact that we were one of the top teams in the league, just hadn't learned playoff hockey yet.

Our foundation was in place before Havlat, Hossa, Chara, Spezza. They improved our team but it was those initial high picks were the reason we started making the playoffs. building off that with later picks filled out our team more,

In the end all of the above player didn't win us a championship.

I am saying we have no high end talent except for Karlsson and maybe Ryan if he stays. None of our picks will ever have the impact that Yashin did for us. By not get one of those high end players while we have been bad over the past few years will hurt us down the road. We have a lot of mid range picks but none of the top ones to fill out the roster.

Because management never wanted to bottom out we have the chance of being an average team for years to come.

Two years ago, with a foundation of picks and veterans, the Senators took the first place Rangers to 7 games.

One year ago, they upset the Montreal Canadians (the #2 seed)

We have NO high end talent? What about Turris? MacArthur? We've yet to see the peak of Zibinejad or Mark Stone. Not to mention highly touted picks like Lazar or Puempel. Jared Cowen was drafted 9th overall and his ceiling, if reached, is immense. Robin Lehner could be a franchise changing goalie like Lundqvist.

You are so hung up on top 5 picks, that's your problem. The only "elite" talent in that top 5 that was strong for the success of Ottawa was Yashin. Daigle was a total bust. Phillips was a top pick in a horrendous draft year. Bonk was a middle ground player at best.

Without Spezza, Hossa, Havlat, and Alfredsson, the Senators would never have made the jump to elite. NEVER. They would have progressed no further than they did with Yashin alone. Competitive but never a real threat in the East. That team that "was on the cusp" was the Leafs punching bag for years. Look at the roster of the 2003 team. That team was elite and was the best chance to take home the Cup. Now compare it the team that upset the Devils. Not even close to the same level of talent. And that talent was on the backs of the later picks.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

As far as claiming Ottawa doesn't have the high draft pick guys to build around now, they actually do.

Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Phillips, Redden
compared to
Turris (3rd), Zibanejad (6th), Karlsson (15th, but it's fair to say he'd go at least 3rd if that draft were re-done today), Ryan (2nd, only a few years older than Yashin was during 97-00), Cowen (8th)

That is 1 elite player, 1 first line forward, 2 second line forwards, and Jared Cowen.

That was golden!

 

[Alfie#11]

Going back to the original question the last seven years began with a sad period as a legit contender fell apart. The frustrating part was the Sens never seemed to make the big push to win a Cup. I feel like they frittered away chances because they didnt want to change the core.

The end of Murray era saw an attempt to re-tool that failed and let to the trading of Fisher etc. I was pretty happy at keeping Alfie, Spezza et al. and was pleased when we got Anderson and some of the Bingo kids here.

Things started to go well and two seasons ago was legit about the most fun I've had as a Sens fan. It really seemed we were on the right path with some vets, some legit stars and kids on the way.

Then last summer hit and we lost Alfie and Gonchar (who had to leave but who's minutes weren't replaced with a quality vet) and now Spezza is on the way out. I can't see how this team is building when we lose guys that can still play and we have lots of cap space. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

So basically, in seven years I've gone from bummed to optimistic, to super excited to extremely down on the team.

 

[Alfie#11]

We have NO high end talent? What about Turris? MacArthur? We've yet to see the peak of Zibinejad or Mark Stone. Not to mention highly touted picks like Lazar or Puempel. Jared Cowen was drafted 9th overall and his ceiling, if reached, is immense. Robin Lehner could be a franchise changing goalie like Lundqvist.

Lehner really could be a franchise goalie. Cowen could be a franchise defenceman (although it seems he his stagnating/regressing).

Nothing else on that list is more than "very good/good". None of the kids has had the type of dominant performance and dominant skillset that would suggest they will be a Hossa-type, elite talent.

That collection of players looks like a winning group when you slot them behind a Spezza or Yashin as first line centre and a Hossa as a winger. To compare that list with past Sens picks, I see Bonks and not Hossas.

You are so hung up on top 5 picks, that's your problem. The only "elite" talent in that top 5 that was strong for the success of Ottawa was Yashin. Daigle was a total bust. Phillips was a top pick in a horrendous draft year. Bonk was a middle ground player at best.

Without Spezza, Hossa, Havlat, and Alfredsson, the Senators would never have made the jump to elite. NEVER. They would have progressed no further than they did with Yashin alone. Competitive but never a real threat in the East. That team that "was on the cusp" was the Leafs punching bag for years. Look at the roster of the 2003 team. That team was elite and was the best chance to take home the Cup. Now compare it the team that upset the Devils. Not even close to the same level of talent. And that talent was on the backs of the later picks.

The longer we get from those early drafts, the luckier they seem. If you go back we drafted legit top players in Yashin, Demitra, Alfredsson, Hossa and Havlat. Those were difference makers. You can add Redden from the Berard trade too, given they were traded for each other.

The thing is that the last of those guys was drafted in 1999. Since then the Senators have drafted with their own pick...one real difference maker or franchise player in Erik Karlsson.

While it is not written in stone that all the top players come from the top of the draft, most do. The team hasn't had any luck finding those types of players later in the draft in ages, suggesting how hard it is to get real top end players in the draft when picking outside of the top.

Consider also a few super fortunate things that helped the early Sens along:

We then lucked out in trading one franchise player (Yashin) for two (Spezza and Chara). When does that happen? We're about to deal a franchise player in Spezza and it doesn't seem like we're going to get anything close to a franchise player in return.

The team was ahead of the curve (and probably lucky) drafting older Euros that had immediate impact. The Sens got a franchise player in Alfie, two very good players in Arvedson and Salo and a nice depth guy in Dackell. The last of those guys was drafted in 1997. We've not seen anything similar since and you can definitely contrast those players to the college UFAs we've recently signed and their lack of impact.

As time goes by those early drafts seem more like we were abnormally fortunate and the subsequent lack of success suggests that you can't count on a repeat.

 

[The Fuhr*]

Turris, Zibanejad, Karlsson, Lehner are four reasons to be optimistic for the future.

That's without mentioning Ryan, Cowen, Stone, Lazar, Ceci who are more uncertain but all look promising.

The only talent that is special is Karlsson... Those other players/prospects almost every team has.

If not for the drafting of Karlsson this era would be the worst in club history

 

[Stylizer1]

Two years ago, with a foundation of picks and veterans, the Senators took the first place Rangers to 7 games.

One year ago, they upset the Montreal Canadians (the #2 seed)

We have NO high end talent? What about Turris? MacArthur? We've yet to see the peak of Zibinejad or Mark Stone. Not to mention highly touted picks like Lazar or Puempel. Jared Cowen was drafted 9th overall and his ceiling, if reached, is immense. Robin Lehner could be a franchise changing goalie like Lundqvist.

You are so hung up on top 5 picks, that's your problem. The only "elite" talent in that top 5 that was strong for the success of Ottawa was Yashin. Daigle was a total bust. Phillips was a top pick in a horrendous draft year. Bonk was a middle ground player at best.

Without Spezza, Hossa, Havlat, and Alfredsson, the Senators would never have made the jump to elite. NEVER. They would have progressed no further than they did with Yashin alone. Competitive but never a real threat in the East. That team that "was on the cusp" was the Leafs punching bag for years. Look at the roster of the 2003 team. That team was elite and was the best chance to take home the Cup. Now compare it the team that upset the Devils. Not even close to the same level of talent. And that talent was on the backs of the later picks.

Turris and Mac are not high end talent. Not even close. Very good players, yes. Daigle wasn't a total bust, there was too high of expectations of him to be the next Mario Lemieux. That hurt him more than anything. As a rookie on a new team he had 51 points. then 37 ponits in 47 games and then was injured and had a bad season. followed that up with 51 points. That was not a bust.

Without Spezza, Hossa, Havlat, and Alfredsson, the Senators would never have made the jump to elite. NEVER.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

Hossa, Havlat, Spezza, and Alfredson never helped us beat Toronto either, we waited for them to start sucking before we went further in the playoffs.

 

[Stylizer1]

Lehner really could be a franchise goalie. Cowen could be a franchise defenceman (although it seems he his stagnating/regressing).

Nothing else on that list is more than "very good/good". None of the kids has had the type of dominant performance and dominant skillset that would suggest they will be a Hossa-type, elite talent.

That collection of players looks like a winning group when you slot them behind a Spezza or Yashin as first line centre and a Hossa as a winger. To compare that list with past Sens picks, I see Bonks and not Hossas.



The longer we get from those early drafts, the luckier they seem. If you go back we drafted legit top players in Yashin, Demitra, Alfredsson, Hossa and Havlat. Those were difference makers. You can add Redden from the Berard trade too, given they were traded for each other.

The thing is that the last of those guys was drafted in 1999. Since then the Senators have drafted with their own pick...one real difference maker or franchise player in Erik Karlsson.

While it is not written in stone that all the top players come from the top of the draft, most do. The team hasn't had any luck finding those types of players later in the draft in ages, suggesting how hard it is to get real top end players in the draft when picking outside of the top.

Consider also a few super fortunate things that helped the early Sens along:

We then lucked out in trading one franchise player (Yashin) for two (Spezza and Chara). When does that happen? We're about to deal a franchise player in Spezza and it doesn't seem like we're going to get anything close to a franchise player in return.

The team was ahead of the curve (and probably lucky) drafting older Euros that had immediate impact. The Sens got a franchise player in Alfie, two very good players in Arvedson and Salo and a nice depth guy in Dackell. The last of those guys was drafted in 1997. We've not seen anything similar since and you can definitely contrast those players to the college UFAs we've recently signed and their lack of impact.

As time goes by those early drafts seem more like we were abnormally fortunate and the subsequent lack of success suggests that you can't count on a repeat.

The only talent that is special is Karlsson... Those other players/prospects almost every team has.

If not for the drafting of Karlsson this era would be the worst in club history

great posts.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

 

[newtron]

That first year after the Cup run was a downer, but there have been some fun things to watch. Trading guys off and stocking up at the draft, was exciting for us die-hards. There have been some exciting positives: Matt Carkner was fun to watch. Karlsson. Alfie's 1000th point. 2012 All-Star game. The Turris trade. The MacArthur signing. How well Ceci played when called up. Lehner's Lehner-ness. Firing Cory Clouston. Pageau's dream playoff series. Stone looking like a polished veteran. Coach MacLean's first year. The Bingo Calder Cup. We've seen some boring hockey, but we've also seen some excitement. That Montreal series was one of the best I've seen... made us awfully proud to be Sens fans.

I keep renewing my tickets and look forward to every year, the rebuild and the promise of getting better has helped, but... Melnyk. He's the soul-sucking element at work here. Even with the sudden influx of boatloads more revenue, he's not willing to spend. Makes it hard to have any optimism going forward when your owner won't allow the GM to build a winner. I don't blame Murray for anything, sure he's made a few mistakes, but all GMs do. If Melnyk was willing to spend to the Cap, or at least above the mid-cap area, we'd be in great shape by now. My biggest hope going forward is that Melnyk sells the team, brings in a partner (...snowball's chance...) or his pride (ego) takes too much of a beating and he decides to open his man-purse.

 

[jbeck5]

Imo all the factors I listed have changed quite dramatically in relation to our franchise over the last 10 years or so. Hope im wrong though

How has the climate changed dramatically in 15 years?

Taxes?

Media?

Canadian dollar? It went up from 15 years agoa few years ago, and now back down to where it was 15 years ago.

None of the things you listed changed at all.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The cap and UFA age going down are two dramatic changes that hurt us

 

[operasen]

For me, almost every player that has ever pulled on the jersey has tried their best. Some were not perceived that way (Kovalev,, etc), but even they added what they did.

The glare for me was around the passing of the torch from Muckler to Murray and what that did to our coaching style - which became (and still may be) a carousel.

After Murray, the coaching has been inconsistent to say the least. Under Clouston it was almost inept.

I assume players who are 10 years in and have been through this merry-go-round are fed up and just want to play a consistent style following a consistent message. Look at the coaches a Spezza era player has had to play through - yikes. I'd want to try something more stable too.

And after buying in for the last three coaches styles after Martin and Murray, may not be really keen to do it for a fourth - before it has been established that he is a keeper and Melnyk will not get Murray to change him up again.

The rookies have not done this, but the vets really have yet to recover from the Paddock, Hartsburg, Clouston messages, never mind fully embrace MacLean's.

For me, this is Murray's year in the spotlight. What he does with the roster and the coaches will shape his future here - promotion or the sidewalk. This is Melnyk's legacy.

 

[bornNraised Sens]

Right after our cup run was disappointing. I would say now we are heading in the right direction, building the team from the bottom up. We have many good looking prospects, and a great development system in place that encourages guys to push eachother, with a good mentor in Richardson coaching them.

We tore down the team one year, but we havent really been a true bottom team ever. We have some good trades that have really benefited the team. The younger guys are only getting better now so thats a good sign.

The worst part is our owner who wont spend more money to help anything out so Murray has to do everything the slowest possible way and he is making it work decently so far. If Melynk even spent 5-7m on this team we could be competing for a 3-5 spots in the east overal i think.

 

[Upgrayedd]

How has the climate changed dramatically in 15 years?

Taxes?

Media?

Canadian dollar? It went up from 15 years agoa few years ago, and now back down to where it was 15 years ago.

None of the things you listed changed at all.

Seriously? You do not think the sports/entertainment business in general has changed dramatically in the last 15 years in terms of $$$$$? Of course those factors always existed as they have with everything in life, i believe they have inflated to an unsustainable level recently in regards to pro hockey in Ottawa. Outside of climate money relates to all factors I listed also I believe the drastic change in the global financial market recently sport included leaves a country like Canada in a tougher spot to compete in comparison to many others especially the US...not my theory just economics really imo

 

[Karlssonlee]

We allowed a GM that inherit a team that went to the Stanley Cup finals and he turned us into a mediocre team for 7 years and many other years to come.

We have one elite talent (Karlsson) and not many other special talents in the pipeline.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

The only talent that is special is Karlsson... Those other players/prospects almost every team has.

If not for the drafting of Karlsson this era would be the worst in club history

Except for the fact that you know, they actually did draft Karlsson.