How do we not have a defense?

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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I was thinking after the first period in Chicago, if I'm Babcock I don't even enter the dressing room in between periods. Grab a bite to eat during intermission, make a phone call or two, then head back to the bench. Let the players look at each other and decide what kind of players they are. No yelling, direction or criticism, save it for practice where orders will be barked.

It's a tough league, in a competitive sport and city. As Donaldson said about the MLB unapologetically "this isn't the try hard league, this is the get it done league". Their core is young, but once their core demanded pay for performance and success, they accept all the pressure.

In fairness. Leafs have not addressed their D since the time Carlyle was here. You would think it would have been a primary focus. Now with no cap room, it's exponentially more difficult and team D takes on a new meaning. Dubas has made some decent tweaks, and thus far Barrie has not found his groove, we must remember Karlsson also struggled for some time in SJ, but, they needed some stay at home D men. Nothing flashy, just solid, average players.

They have the talent. I still believe their best is yet to come, with age, experience and the like. However, it's tough to have confidence in this group.

they haven't addressed the defense since Quinn was here.
we're Philadelphia. but instead of the Goaltending issues, it's defense for us. we usually get one or two pieces but it's always some gong-show collective effort.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
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they haven't addressed the defense since Quinn was here.
we're Philadelphia. but instead of the Goaltending issues, it's defense for us. we usually get one or two pieces but it's always some gong-show collective effort.
yup, 1 step forward.......2 steps back, at least that's how it feels.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
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Kadri
Komarov
Martin
Marleau
Brown
Hainsey
Polak

Lots of character there.....oh wait, no room for them and the "Big 40".

Oh well. at least some of the goals we score are really pretty.
don't count out zaitsev , i was never one that thought what the gaggles here did.

i think i am starting to realise why he wanted off this roster.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
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don't count out zaitsev , i was never one that thought what the gaggles here did.

i think i am starting to realise why he wanted off this roster.
missed him, I'm sure there are plenty of them..............
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
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Not to stop the meltdown, but they have played more games than most teams.. Of course they will be higher in GA.

Also doesn't help that Hutch let in 4 goals every game he started. Plus October Freddy....

For once I think people are over reacting with this. Defense has been fine. Did we miss where last night there was 3 goals on 13 shots?
11th worst GaGs , not good for a supposed cup contender.
 

Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
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Ron Hainsey was seriously underestimated by the analytics crowd; and they are still adamant in not pointing out that this team is really missing Hainsey's play to praise their lord dubas

Cecis numbers this year represent an upgrade on Hainsey. Both Analytics and end results show this.

I'm pretty sure Rielly is playing out there injured though and has been hinted at by management. Even though his numbers paired with Ceci are excellent, he has struggled with everyone else and has maybe the worst PK goals against in the league.

I expect him to pick it up defensively as he gets better though.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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When you have a creative playmaker like Marner focused on defensive issues and a dman like barrie, flying out of the dzone before the puck is out, tells me that the roles have been completely screwed up. Why is the whole team focused on a quick transition just to see a dump in? Im not against all dump ins but it is becoming a lazy go to play when the puck has been moved up with zero offensive structure. Even if it isnt dumped in, the puck carrier needs to slow the puck to let other players catch up and find an open lane. Bostons puck transition comes in waves of forwards who often use royal road passes to set up a high danger shot. Dump ins and high low passes rely on really fast players...something we dont really have among our top scorers and centermen.

You need your important players to play the game any way it needs to be played in as many situations as possible, not for them to play one limited role and question why more is asked of them or question why they aren’t played one way. What you’re describing is a collection of individuals.
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
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You dont fire Shanahan, he came it and has done a ton of good. He's earned a mulligan for highering Dubas.
 

Kamiccolo

Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
Aug 30, 2011
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11th worst GaGs , not good for a supposed cup contender.

My point is looking at that number and concluding it's on the defense is lazy and inaccurate.

Is it on the forwards?

Is it on the coaching?

Our PK sucks and gives up a ton of goals

Hutch let in 4 goals per b2b

etc.

Bigger concern should be they turned over the D core several times and the same problems are there. That speaks to system/coaching IMO
 

djdev

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Dec 26, 2015
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our defense is a good one, the problem is our team's system. i have heard babcock for the past 2 plus years say "we have to get better" at playing the way he wants...but seriously, its been a long time lol. maybe the system just doesnt work? hes clearly not good at admitting when hes wrong though, so until we have a different philosophy behind the bench i dont forsee much changing unfortunately.

teams the isles and vegas etc win because they play a system that suits their players, leafs have far more talent but constantly get in their own way better than any team i have ever seen lol.
 

BodaciousBeefBazooka

Go Leafs Go
Apr 4, 2013
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Havent watched a full game all season. Too many glaring issues and I can't put up with the crap anymore. It's actually getting really ridiculous with the wash rinse repeat mentality.
 

sxvnert

Registered User
Nov 23, 2015
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Because the head coach pampers his star players by offloading all of their defensive responsibility and hitting to a grinder on every line.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
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our defense is a good one, the problem is our team's system. i have heard babcock for the past 2 plus years say "we have to get better" at playing the way he wants...but seriously, its been a long time lol. maybe the system just doesnt work? hes clearly not good at admitting when hes wrong though, so until we have a different philosophy behind the bench i dont forsee much changing unfortunately.

teams the isles and vegas etc win because they play a system that suits their players, leafs have far more talent but constantly get in their own way better than any team i have ever seen lol.
2017/18 we had the 12 th best GaGs in the league

nothing wrong with that
 

djdev

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Dec 26, 2015
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2017/18 we had the 12 th best GaGs in the league

nothing wrong with that
i mean, 2 years ago we were 12th in something doesnt really inspire confidence in a "cup contender". i just know what i see, and something has been off for a while.
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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i mean, 2 years ago we were 12th in something doesnt really inspire confidence in a "cup contender". i just know what i see, and something has been off for a while.
huh, funny

washington had a worse GaG and won that season
 

djdev

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Dec 26, 2015
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huh, funny

washington had a worse GaG and won that season
you have your opinion and i have mine. congratz to washington i suppose lol.
theres no reason to believe we shouldnt be a better team than we currently are given our personelle. i dont ever come here and rip on the team for no reason after losses etc. but after watching the same lapses for 2 plus years, to me its clear something isnt working.
 

djdev

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Dec 26, 2015
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A lot of recent cup winners were built on a high scoring, poorish defence, hot goalie model. Pittburgh/Washington obvious examples.
problem is, we need to make it out of the 1st round to win a cup lol.
im a pretty positive guy, but given the amount of turnover on our backend and seeing the results be the exact same over the past few years doesnt give me great faith thats it is a player issue and not a flawed system.
 

Zybalto

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Dec 28, 2012
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problem is, we need to make it out of the 1st round to win a cup lol.
im a pretty positive guy, but given the amount of turnover on our backend and seeing the results be the exact same over the past few years doesnt give me great faith thats it is a player issue and not a flawed system.

2 things to think about on not making it out of the first round:

1. Anderson was the second best keeper in every series and had bad game 7s the last 2.

2. On average we played the 3rd best team in the hockey over the last 3 years.....despite going back to back 100 point seasons the last two.

Being underdogs against elite teams in every series due to the weird system with a goalie that didnt perform better than his rival?

Losing doesnt seem very shocking does it? The worst thing we could do is make rash decisions that take away what built recent successes. Not easy to build or maintain a good team.
 

Zybalto

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Dec 28, 2012
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With 5v5 goaltending being 24th in the league at the moment, it may be skewing GF% (or +/-) but people usually find that unreliable anyways (I know Zeke HATED it) so not gonna use it here.

Here are our pairings 5v5 numbers so far:

Rielly/Ceci:

TOI: 283:42
QoC: Top end first pairing, one of the hardest in NHL.

CF%: 51.23
SCF%: 52.55
HDCF%: 54.77
xGF%: 52.36

Muzzin/Barrie:

TOI: 267:22
QoC: 2nd pairing

CF%: 53.27
SCF%: 49.91
HDCF%: 40.52
xGF%: 43.92

Dermott/Holl:

TOI: 59:12
QoC: Sheltered 3rd pairing

CF%: 52.47
SCF%: 50.47
HDCF%: 56.23
xGF%: 49.37

By far the biggest problem this year has been the 2nd pairing getting destroyed on High Danger scoring differential. Its the massive outlier and the main source on D of our woes.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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Dubas' spreadsheet shows that Ceci has good stats and Dubie claimed as much yesterday. Perhaps he can convince another analytical genius to trade for him? Chyka in Arizona ??
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
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Dubas' spreadsheet shows that Ceci has good stats and Dubie claimed as much yesterday. Perhaps he can convince another analytical genius to trade for him? Chyka in Arizona ??
I don't get the Ceci love, he's playing too high in the line up imo, and makes too much to be bottom 6.
 
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Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
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Dubas' spreadsheet shows that Ceci has good stats and Dubie claimed as much yesterday. Perhaps he can convince another analytical genius to trade for him? Chyka in Arizona ??

Every spreadsheet says he has good stats as do traditional checks.

Ceci is so interesting now in that he has exposed how people cannot get away from pre-exisitng biases and narratives.

It's more or less a Larry Murphy effect with him now as hes probably been most effective dman so far this year leading every defensive category while almost the hardest coml in the league and no one gives him credit.

Just watch what is said now its fascinating. Any goal with him on the ice must be his fault in some way, even when its not. I've seen instances of some folks wasting their time trying to pin blame on him when he makes good plays........and then the mob finally gets their wish and get that perfect moment when he mishits a bouncing puck and it goes to patches for the goal.

See! See!

Hes been as bad as I said!

I'm hoping he gets even better because this could really get crazy.
 

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