How close is Crosby to top 5 status now?

[Rhiessan71]

It's frustrating that Art Ross counting for Crosby still gets thrown around when the three best forwards outside of the Big Four (Hull, Richard, and Beliveau) have four between them. Even more frustrating when the standards are then moved from raw points-only to PPGs for the playoffs.

It should be beneath the HOH to have this claim thrown out there.

Seriously...pot meet kettle.

You are one of the very last people that should be admonishing anyone for supposedly "moving goal posts".

The bottomline is that in Crosby's 8 full seasons, for as dominant as he gets portrayed as, he only has 2 Art Ross.
That's without the consistent competition like a Howe or a Mikita and he sure as hell wasn't dealing with Hull vs Beliveau vs Richard vs Howe all competing without each other at the same time.

In Crosby's first 12 seasons, 10 different names have gone on the Art Ross trophy.
That is the most names in any 12 year block in NHL history by a mile.
The closest you can come is counting from the beginning of the Art Ross where you have 7 and even then, Howe won it 5 times.

I mean what's the argument going to be?
That Crosby has had to deal with more parity and been more diverse competition?

That argument will last all of about 2 seconds until OV with his 6 Rockets, 2 runner-ups and 9 top-3 goal scoring finishes during the exact same 12 seasons is brought up heh.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well you can only focus on the Art Ross and make disingenuous claims without even mentioning the only reason he's at 2 and not 4 is because of very questionable hits to the head (2010-2011) and a freak slap shot to the face by his own guy (2012-13). Both seasons he easily had a large enough sample size in games played and was way out in front of the Art Ross race that it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion he wins had he played 70+ games in 2011 and the final dozen or so of 2013.

As it stands, he only has 2 and that is what he is given credit for, rightfully so. But at least acknowledge the reason why that number is at 2.

The problem with focusing on 1 singular item (like scoring titles) is that Crosby has a plethora of other major accolades to his name, to go along with the 2 Art Ross's. He has a slew of major selling points in the regular season, postseason, and on the International stage.

Nobody outside the big 4 has some strangle hold on a bunch of major awards or statistical achievements. That is why a large gap exists between 4 and 5. And subsequently the waters muddy and rankings start to vary.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs (jagr) easily safe to say jagr never had a full season playoffs and reg combined as good as crosbys 16-17. No player besides Malkin has since 2005-06

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs (jagr) easily safe to say jagr never had a full season playoffs and reg combined as good as crosbys 16-17. No player besides Malkin has since 2005-06

Ah yes, of course only a fellow Penguin could possibly top the already-legendary 2016-17 Crosby campaign.

 

[Plural]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs (jagr) easily safe to say jagr never had a full season playoffs and reg combined as good as crosbys 16-17. No player besides Malkin has since 2005-06

I know you're probably focusing on forwards only, but since you didn't specify I'd like to add one Tim Thomas to the mix. 10-11. Maybe throw in Jonathan Quick. 06-07 Nieds also comes in to play. 07-08 Datsyuk is also a good addition. There are probably more than few other notable names too.

Meaning, Sid had a great season overall but we're not talking about some kind of once or twice in few decades kind of season. A lot of players have been among the top in their respective position while also have had great playoffs. Crosby was good but he wasn't other worldly in the playoffs or in the regular season. The overrating of Crosby's season as a whole is approaching ridiculous levels.

 

[MadLuke]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs (jagr) easily safe to say jagr never had a full season playoffs and reg combined as good as crosbys 16-17. No player besides Malkin has since 2005-06

Is that clear ?, even just for forward, it could be but there is some contender not far if that is the case:

2008-2009 Ovechkin is probably not far from that.
110 points season, 21 pts in 14 playoff game.

2007-2008 Zetterberg(43 goal, 49 assist +30 regular season, 27 points +16 playoff Conn Smythe cup), Datsyuk that season too with a 97 point Selke regular season, 23 points in 22 game cup win.

 

[The Panther]

The overrating of Crosby's season as a whole is approaching ridiculous levels.

Yes, it is.

Crosby had a great regular season in 2016-17. He was maybe the co-best player in the NHL. His team did very well.

Crosby had a pretty-good playoffs. But it wasn't anything overly special from an individual level. The fact that he won another Cup is a tribute to the Penguins outstanding organization.

 

[The Panther]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs

In other words, 1988 Gretzky was better than Lemieux?

 

[Plural]

In other words, 1988 Gretzky was better than Lemieux?

 

[daver]

Crosby just finished 2nd in the art ross race while winning the playoff mvp and cup. I'll take that every year over an art ross and nothing in the playoffs (jagr) easily safe to say jagr never had a full season playoffs and reg combined as good as crosbys 16-17. No player besides Malkin has since 2005-06

The only thing safe to say is that Crosby has two Hart nomination plus a Smythe seasons in addition to another Top 3 scoring finish and Smythe-worthy run season which I imagine certainly puts him in very, very select company.

Is Wayne the only player who you can say something similar about?

 

[daver]

I know you're probably focusing on forwards only, but since you didn't specify I'd like to add one Tim Thomas to the mix. 10-11. Maybe throw in Jonathan Quick. 06-07 Nieds also comes in to play. 07-08 Datsyuk is also a good addition. There are probably more than few other notable names too.

Meaning, Sid had a great season overall but we're not talking about some kind of once or twice in few decades kind of season. A lot of players have been among the top in their respective position while also have had great playoffs. Crosby was good but he wasn't other worldly in the playoffs or in the regular season. The overrating of Crosby's season as a whole is approaching ridiculous levels.

If we are trying to rank these seasons, Crosby easily wins the 2nd best by a forward, and Tim Thomas makes the best argument for 2nd or even the best since 2005.

 

[Plural]

If we are trying to rank these seasons, Crosby easily wins the 2nd best by a forward, and Tim Thomas makes the best argument for 2nd or even the best since 2005.

Crosby is probably 2nd best forward but even that's up for debate and not "easily". Point was that even if it was a great season by him we're not talking about something that doesn't happen more than once or twice every 12 years.

Just to expand on this. Zetterberg was 6th in points and 5th in PPG in 07-08. He was also 3rd in Selke, won the Smythe with a performance that was probably a noticeable but maybe not massively better than what we saw from Sid this year. He was only 10th in Hart voting which makes his season seem tad lower to me. There was 2 DET players ahead of him in the voting. Lids and Dats. I would pick Crosby overall when comparing these two seasons but I concede it's close and probably somewhat up to how much weight one puts on playoffs and defensive game. Although I don't think Crosby gives that much leeway on that regard anymore.

 

[pappyline]

It's frustrating that Art Ross counting for Crosby still gets thrown around when the three best forwards outside of the Big Four (Hull, Richard, and Beliveau) have four between them.

It should be beneath the HOH to have this claim thrown out there.

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Do you even realize that Hull has 3 before age 30 to Crosby's 2.

 

[bobholly39]

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Do you even realize that Hull has 3 before age 30 to Crosby's 2.

what's to laugh about?

His point was that a lot of people here try to diminish Crosby's accomplishments so far by saying "only 2 art ross".

3 of the most popular candidates for "5th all time" are Hull, Richard and Beliveau and they do have 4 combined art ross between the 3 of them. Yes - Hull has 3 of them. But Beliveau has 1, and Richard has 0.

Why aren't those same people (the correct word is hypocrite) saying "wow only 1, or only 0 art ross for richard - no way thats good enough for 5th all time". Yet only 2 for Crosby is somehow enough to run him out of contention.

 

[Plural]

what's to laugh about?

His point was that a lot of people here try to diminish Crosby's accomplishments so far by saying "only 2 art ross".

3 of the most popular candidates for "5th all time" are Hull, Richard and Beliveau and they do have 4 combined art ross between the 3 of them. Yes - Hull has 3 of them. But Beliveau has 1, and Richard has 0.

Why aren't those same people (the correct word is hypocrite) saying "wow only 1, or only 0 art ross for richard - no way thats good enough for 5th all time". Yet only 2 for Crosby is somehow enough to run him out of contention.

That's a fair point and something I've kind of wondered myself too. They all have somewhat comparable offensive record at face value. Bobby Hull seemingly being the strongest in terms of actual accomplishments.

 

[pappyline]

what's to laugh about?

His point was that a lot of people here try to diminish Crosby's accomplishments so far by saying "only 2 art ross".

3 of the most popular candidates for "5th all time" are Hull, Richard and Beliveau and they do have 4 combined art ross between the 3 of them. Yes - Hull has 3 of them. But Beliveau has 1, and Richard has 0.

Why aren't those same people (the correct word is hypocrite) saying "wow only 1, or only 0 art ross for richard - no way thats good enough for 5th all time". Yet only 2 for Crosby is somehow enough to run him out of contention.

What is funny is that he grouped the 3 players together. If he looked at each one separately then OK. But then he couldn't say "Wow only 3 for Hull" because that wouldn't support his premise.

 

[bobholly39]

What is funny is that he grouped the 3 players together. If he looked at each one separately then OK. But then he couldn't say "Wow only 3 for Hull" because that wouldn't support his premise.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

To me it's more about "stop trophy counting and actually consider perspective and level of play honestly".

Crosby has 2 Art Ross. But he was a good enough player to have 4 (at the very minimum). I'd say 99% of people would concede that 2013 and 2011 would have been his art ross pretty easily without freak injuries.

No he didn't win them - but what are we comparing? Or are we comparing who was a better player (and as such Crosby played at a level good enough to win 4, at least, art ross) or are we simply trophy counting? Need a bit of perspective.

I do agree that Hull's offensive peak and accolades seem a lot more impressive than Beliveau. Why is Beliveau so often ranked above Hull? What's the argument?

 

[MXD]

I do agree that Hull's offensive peak and accolades seem a lot more impressive than Beliveau. Why is Beliveau so often ranked above Hull? What's the argument?

Well, it probably starts with capitaining, and being generally the best player of, a dynasty of the "definitely better than the sum of its parts" type.

And not everyone has the same opinion of the WHA.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Bobby Hull likely closes the gap to Lemieux had he not bolted the NHL. I have Hull #5 all time and a distant 5 (as I'm sure many others do as well).

 

[Theokritos]

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Do you even realize that Hull has 3 before age 30 to Crosby's 2.

Good point. If anything, daver should have said: Richard and Beliveau have 1 scoring title between them.

 

[daver]

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Do you even realize that Hull has 3 before age 30 to Crosby's 2.

Seems like your lack of ability to apply context gives you joy. Happy for ya.

 

[Rhiessan71]

what's to laugh about?

His point was that a lot of people here try to diminish Crosby's accomplishments so far by saying "only 2 art ross".

3 of the most popular candidates for "5th all time" are Hull, Richard and Beliveau and they do have 4 combined art ross between the 3 of them. Yes - Hull has 3 of them. But Beliveau has 1, and Richard has 0.

Why aren't those same people (the correct word is hypocrite) saying "wow only 1, or only 0 art ross for richard - no way thats good enough for 5th all time". Yet only 2 for Crosby is somehow enough to run him out of contention.

What part of Hull, Richard, Howe, Beliveau and Mikita were competing for the same Art Ross trophies is not being understood here exactly?

In the 18 year period from 1950-1968 only 6 names appear on the Art Ross.
Howe 6
Mikita 4
Hull 3
Geoffrion 2
Moore 2
Beliveau 1

Richard doesn't make it on there because he was much more of a goal scorer than a points guy and he was up against a prime Howe for more than half of his career.
Much like OV in 09/10, suspension cost Richard the '55 Art Ross. Richard was ahead by 2 points at the time of the suspension. Geoffrion had 3 points in the final 3 games to edge him by 1.

Geoffrion's other Art Ross and Moore's 2 back to back were all from monster career seasons by both players.
It took Beliveau having one of the best overall seasons ever by a player not named Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux just to win his 1 Art Ross.
What does that tell you about what he was up against?

Remind me again who Crosby has CONSISTENTLY been competing for Art Ross trophies with again...

*Crickets*




Thornton
Crosby
OV
Sedin
Sedin
Malkin
St Louis
Kane
Benn

Vs

Howe
Hull
Beliveau
Richard
Mikita
Geoffrion
Moore

One of these lists is not like the other by juuuuust a little bit

 

[Canadiens1958]

Rolling Lines

What part of Hull, Richard, Howe, Beliveau and Mikita were competing for the same Art Ross trophies is not being understood here exactly?

In the 18 year period from 1950-1968 only 6 names appear on the Art Ross.
Howe 6
Mikita 4
Hull 3
Geoffrion 2
Moore 2
Beliveau 1

Richard doesn't make it on there because he was much more of a goal scorer than a points guy and he was up against a prime Howe for more than half of his career.
Much like OV in 09/10, suspension cost Richard the '55 Art Ross. Richard was ahead by 2 points at the time of the suspension. Geoffrion had 3 points in the final 3 games to edge him by 1.

Geoffrion's other Art Ross and Moore's 2 back to back were all from monster career seasons by both players.
It took Beliveau having one of the best overall seasons ever by a player not named Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux just to win his 1 Art Ross.
What does that tell you about what he was up against?

Remind me again who Crosby has CONSISTENTLY been competing for Art Ross trophies with again...

*Crickets*




Thornton
Crosby
OV
Sedin
Sedin
Malkin
St Louis
Kane
Benn

Vs

Howe
Hull
Beliveau
Richard
Mikita
Geoffrion
Moore

One of these lists is not like the other by juuuuust a little bit

Factor in that the Canadiens and Leafs tended to roll four lines while the four American teams tended to roll three lines, changing the TOI factor.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

In other words, 1988 Gretzky was better than Lemieux?

Overall obv. However 88/89- lemieux was always better when healthy

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Is that clear ?, even just for forward, it could be but there is some contender not far if that is the case:

2008-2009 Ovechkin is probably not far from that.
110 points season, 21 pts in 14 playoff game.

2007-2008 Zetterberg(43 goal, 49 assist +30 regular season, 27 points +16 playoff Conn Smythe cup), Datsyuk that season too with a 97 point Selke regular season, 23 points in 22 game cup win.

Ovechkin was great. Zetterberg no whete close to as good as crosbys overall 16-17. He was outside both the top 3 in hart and art ross