How close is Crosby to top 5 status now?

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Big Phil

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His first Conn Smythe was a lifetime achievement award and totally undeserving. His second one was coin flip between him and Malkin (I would prefer Malkin but its fair that Crosby have 1 because hes been top 2-3 in 3 playoffs, 08, 09 and 17)

I'm not really getting it here. Crosby in total has four Smythe worthy runs, 2008, 2009, 2016 and 2017. He's won two of them. I was fine with Malkin winning it in 2009, it made sense then and now.

2016 was more of a debate. Did he deserve it? Yes, I think so. Things were highlighted that spring of the things he did that didn't show up on the scoresheet. Stuff like instructing Letang where you line up on the faceoff in overtime and then winning the draw and having Letang assist on the goal. I think Crosby got an assist on it too, but it just goes to show you, he didn't have a 4-point game but he didn't need to. There were a few names such as Kessel, Letang, Crosby and a darkhorse in Murray. I think when you factor in all around play and leadership then Crosby was a good choice. It wasn't a particularly strong Smythe win however.

As for 2017 he was for sure the correct choice. In a way it was the opposite of 2009. In 2009 going into the final you figure Crosby was the favourite over Malkin for the Smythe yet after the final the narrative changed. The opposite happened in 2017. Malkin was favoured going into the final but Crosby just stepped up and carried the Pens in the final to the point where he surpassed Malkin. It might surprise people, but Gretzky and Messier were pretty much neck and neck going into the 1988 final as well before Gretzky just exploded against the Bruins. Malkin has a Smythe-worthy year, but I think it was pretty clear who should have won it.

Conn Smythe is the most erratic trophy. Obviously it's a great achievement and understandably held to a high regard. But it has more "why" winners than any other trophy in NHL history.

Probably because there is a smaller sample size perhaps? When names like Pisani, Bonino, Langenbrunner and co. are players with genuine Smythe-worthy runs then it just goes to show you that over a span of 20-25 games inferior players can make a nice run. This is less likely in the regular season because over 82 games you tend to see the best put more separation in between them and the next crop.
 

MadLuke

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Probably because there is a smaller sample size perhaps?

Both in games played and competition, if the only realist winner are on the cup finalist (and almost 100% on the team than won), it is the best player among a group of just 20 player for about 25 games (and more importantly in our biased mind during those 16 wins)

Freak event are much more likely to happen than for 82 games among 600 players.
 

Big Phil

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Both in games played and competition, if the only realist winner are on the cup finalist (and almost 100% on the team than won), it is the best player among a group of just 20 player for about 25 games (and more importantly in our biased mind during those 16 wins)

Freak event are much more likely to happen than for 82 games among 600 players.

I guess, but it sounds to me as if you are really downgrading the Conn Smythe trophy. There has been the odd unusual player who has won it, but it doesn't mean they didn't play the best hockey at the most important time of the year as well. I think it goes beyond 2 teams though. You think Crosby wins the Conn Smythe on the final alone? I said it is a smaller sample size because it might be 20 games which is easier to have a really hot streak over that time than over 82. Justin Williams would never have a better regular season than Drew Doughty but over 20 games it can happen. I don't downgrade it though.
 

NoMessi

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I'm not really getting it here. Crosby in total has four Smythe worthy runs, 2008, 2009, 2016 and 2017. He's won two of them. I was fine with Malkin winning it in 2009, it made sense then and now.

2016 was more of a debate. Did he deserve it? Yes, I think so. Things were highlighted that spring of the things he did that didn't show up on the scoresheet. Stuff like instructing Letang where you line up on the faceoff in overtime and then winning the draw and having Letang assist on the goal. I think Crosby got an assist on it too, but it just goes to show you, he didn't have a 4-point game but he didn't need to. There were a few names such as Kessel, Letang, Crosby and a darkhorse in Murray. I think when you factor in all around play and leadership then Crosby was a good choice. It wasn't a particularly strong Smythe win however.

As for 2017 he was for sure the correct choice. In a way it was the opposite of 2009. In 2009 going into the final you figure Crosby was the favourite over Malkin for the Smythe yet after the final the narrative changed. The opposite happened in 2017. Malkin was favoured going into the final but Crosby just stepped up and carried the Pens in the final to the point where he surpassed Malkin. It might surprise people, but Gretzky and Messier were pretty much neck and neck going into the 1988 final as well before Gretzky just exploded against the Bruins. Malkin has a Smythe-worthy year, but I think it was pretty clear who should have won it.



Probably because there is a smaller sample size perhaps? When names like Pisani, Bonino, Langenbrunner and co. are players with genuine Smythe-worthy runs then it just goes to show you that over a span of 20-25 games inferior players can make a nice run. This is less likely in the regular season because over 82 games you tend to see the best put more separation in between them and the next crop.

Whats is that you dont get? Its pretty clear that I don't think Crosby was Conn Smythe worthy in 2016. The real final was against Capitals and he got dominated in the matchup against Bäckström and got bailed out by HBK. His stats after 1 round was plain bad, and he only passed the eye-test in spurts.

About the Conn Smythe in 2017 I get you point and agree that Crosby was the best player in the finals against Nashville. I just don't think it was enough to make him to surpass Malkin, although I agree it was a Conn Smythe worthy run.

Once again, I don't mind Crosby having a Conn Smythe trophy but him getting it back-to-back does things to his legacy that I don't think he deserves.
 

MadLuke

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I guess, but it sounds to me as if you are really downgrading the Conn Smythe trophy. There has been the odd unusual player who has won it, but it doesn't mean they didn't play the best hockey at the most important time of the year as well. I think it goes beyond 2 teams though. You think Crosby wins the Conn Smythe on the final alone? I said it is a smaller sample size because it might be 20 games which is easier to have a really hot streak over that time than over 82. Justin Williams would never have a better regular season than Drew Doughty but over 20 games it can happen. I don't downgrade it though.

In a indirect way (because the smythe winner influence the fact you end up in the playoff and he was in competition with other potential candidate).

But winning the Smythe is pretty much being the best player on the winning team (with a small outside chance on the cup finalist that lost), that is being the best of a small group of player. Many year's some player were better in round 1/2 or even during the first 3 round than the actual winner, but their team didn't made it to the end.

If the playoff were like in soccer or the old world junior format (everyone play against everyone and the team with the most win after 25 games win the cup), every player would be available to win the Smythe, and in that competition the group of elite player would be larger and greater chance than one of them would win it (a chance percentage that would go up and up with the number of games).
 

daver

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Whats is that you dont get? Its pretty clear that I don't think Crosby was Conn Smythe worthy in 2016. The real final was against Capitals and he got dominated in the matchup against Bäckström and got bailed out by HBK. His stats after 1 round was plain bad, and he only passed the eye-test in spurts.

About the Conn Smythe in 2017 I get you point and agree that Crosby was the best player in the finals against Nashville. I just don't think it was enough to make him to surpass Malkin, although I agree it was a Conn Smythe worthy run.

Once again, I don't mind Crosby having a Conn Smythe trophy but him getting it back-to-back does things to his legacy that I don't think he deserves.

Backstrom scored one more ES assist than Crosby in that series. How does that constitute domination?

The fact that the Caps loaded #1 line didn't put up more ES points vs. the Pens #1 line which was made up of a #2/3 winger and an AHL callup had some significance to the outcome of that series.

Funny how you think Malkin gets the Smythe this year for basically putting up a bunch of 2nd assists against the Blue Jackets. Is that what you considered the "real final" this year? Or was the Caps series again the "real final" that saw Crosby match Malkin's point totals in effectively only 5 games including setting the tone with two huge games at the beginning.
 

Big Phil

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Whats is that you dont get? Its pretty clear that I don't think Crosby was Conn Smythe worthy in 2016. The real final was against Capitals and he got dominated in the matchup against Bäckström and got bailed out by HBK. His stats after 1 round was plain bad, and he only passed the eye-test in spurts.

About the Conn Smythe in 2017 I get you point and agree that Crosby was the best player in the finals against Nashville. I just don't think it was enough to make him to surpass Malkin, although I agree it was a Conn Smythe worthy run.

Once again, I don't mind Crosby having a Conn Smythe trophy but him getting it back-to-back does things to his legacy that I don't think he deserves.

Who deserved the Smythe in your opinion in 2016? I am not saying there aren't other answers, but no one stood out. 2016 reminds me a lot of 2007. No one stood out and even the winner is never going to be remember as someone with an all-time great run.

Malkin was favoured going into the final in 2017. He had a great first round, helped when Crosby was hurt for those two games and overall 28 points is Smythe worthy to begin with. But Crosby overtook him in the final. Maybe you think the "real" Cup final was between Washington both years but to be quite honest I don't think Washington has ever shown that they were capable of winning. They've never proven it, they've never even been close. In 2016 the Pens beat them in 6 games, so they were never even facing elimination.

I think as is usually the case Crosby's back to back Smythe's might get overrated and lumped with Mario's two. No question about it, Mario's runs were better but considering Crosby is just turning 30 and capable of winning another Smythe the question begs just how many players in NHL history have won 2, retro or not? Either way it is exclusive company.
 

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Yeah, I always get a good laugh at people saying "Pittsburgh-Washington was the real final" :laugh:

Washington hasn't beaten Pittsburgh in a meaningful playoff series in 23 years and that was the only time it's ever happened. It's about as lopsided as you get between 2 rival teams. In the Crosby-Ovechkin era it's 3-0 Pitt.
 

Big Phil

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Yeah, I always get a good laugh at people saying "Pittsburgh-Washington was the real final" :laugh:

Washington hasn't beaten Pittsburgh in a meaningful playoff series in 23 years and that was the only time it's ever happened. It's about as lopsided as you get between 2 rival teams. In the Crosby-Ovechkin era it's 3-0 Pitt.

Throw in the fact that Washington in their 43 year history has been out of the second round twice (1990, 1998) as well, and neither of those teams were thought of as great teams and both times they never beat an elite team to get that far.

I can think of maybe one time in NHL history where the 2nd round was considered - maybe - the "real" Cup final and that might be 1988 just because Calgary was so good that year and actually won their Cup a year later.

Other than that the "real" Cup finals are only ever in the semis. Colorado/Detroit 1996, 2002, Ottawa/New Jersey 2003, Colorado/Dallas 1999, some have argued L.A./Chicago in 2014.

Considering it was San Jose, a pretty capable team playing Pittsburgh in 2016 I honestly can't say for sure that Washington beats them. San Jose for the longest time was "that" team Washington was, great regular seasons but nothing to show for it in the playoffs. So really, are they the for sure favourite in 2016 against San Jose? I can't say for sure.
 

Rhiessan71

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Backstrom scored one more ES assist than Crosby in that series. How does that constitute domination?

Seriously Daver?
Always an excuse....

That Caps series was one of Sid's worst PO series of his career outside of the Boston Conf Final series.
He was a virtual no show and there is no defending it.

Casanova is right, that series alone should have cost him the Conn in '16.
 
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Big Phil

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Seriously Daver?
Always an excuse....

That Caps series was one of Sid's worst PO series of his career outside of the Boston Conf Final series.
He was a virtual no show and there is no defending it.

Casanova is right, that series alone should have cost him the Conn in '16.

But then who gets it? This wasn't a clear cut case in the best of times. You had Sid with 19 points and 3 GWGs. You had Kessel with 22 points and 0 GWGs but 10 goals overall. Malkin was okay with 18 points but a shade less important than Crosby. Letang wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, in fact I like him even more than Kessel. That leaves a real darkhorse like Murray, who was good, but not great. Didn't really steal things, just didn't screw it up.

I don't see a lot of options on that team. Bonino and Hagelin did well also, but I wouldn't call either Conn Smythe worthy. This wasn't really a year where someone stood out, even Crosby didn't stand out. He did in 2017, but it was muddier in 2016. It may have helped that he had two points in the clinching game too. That really is just how close things were. I really think it came down to that. If Kessel had a monster Game 6 in the final it would have went to him.

I can agree it isn't the strongest Smythe win in the world, but I think it makes sense as well.
 

The Panther

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I don't think Crosby really deserved the '16 Conn Smythe, but then again I'm not getting my pantyhose in a knot over it either. He has two Conn Smythes? Okay, fine.

The only problem is the fanboy reaction, with people thinking that Crosby is as good as Mario because he has two Conn Smythes. (Somehow, they never ask if he's as good as Bernie Parent.)

Then again, I should know better than to check in on the Main Board... they're now having an important discussion over whether players should be allowed get assists on their own goals.
 

Gurglesons

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I don't think Crosby really deserved the '16 Conn Smythe, but then again I'm not getting my pantyhose in a knot over it either. He has two Conn Smythes? Okay, fine.

The only problem is the fanboy reaction, with people thinking that Crosby is as good as Mario because he has two Conn Smythes. (Somehow, they never ask if he's as good as Bernie Parent.)

Then again, I should know better than to check in on the Main Board... they're now having an important discussion over whether players should be allowed get assists on their own goals.

I don't think you'll see a single Pittsburgh Penguin fan say Crosby is better than Mario. He may have the better career when he is finished, he may have the better career in terms of winning right now, but Lemieux is clearly the best Penguin of all time in terms of actual play and nobody is ever coming close.
 

daver

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But then who gets it? This wasn't a clear cut case in the best of times. You had Sid with 19 points and 3 GWGs. You had Kessel with 22 points and 0 GWGs but 10 goals overall. Malkin was okay with 18 points but a shade less important than Crosby. Letang wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, in fact I like him even more than Kessel. That leaves a real darkhorse like Murray, who was good, but not great. Didn't really steal things, just didn't screw it up.

I don't see a lot of options on that team. Bonino and Hagelin did well also, but I wouldn't call either Conn Smythe worthy. This wasn't really a year where someone stood out, even Crosby didn't stand out. He did in 2017, but it was muddier in 2016. It may have helped that he had two points in the clinching game too. That really is just how close things were. I really think it came down to that. If Kessel had a monster Game 6 in the final it would have went to him.

I can agree it isn't the strongest Smythe win in the world, but I think it makes sense as well.

You aren't going to convince a poster who is happy when Crosby gets potential career ending injuries of anything.
 

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I still think Crosby has enough left in the tank to get to 5th. Obviously, knock on wood, his health remains in good standing, but the Penguins are at least in good to great shape for the next few years and I think he'll be in the Art Ross and Hart conversations if he can play 75+ games.

I'd say top 10 is likely, but getting to 5th are longer odds, however, not out of reach by any means.
 

NoMessi

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Backstrom scored one more ES assist than Crosby in that series. How does that constitute domination?

The fact that the Caps loaded #1 line didn't put up more ES points vs. the Pens #1 line which was made up of a #2/3 winger and an AHL callup had some significance to the outcome of that series.

Funny how you think Malkin gets the Smythe this year for basically putting up a bunch of 2nd assists against the Blue Jackets. Is that what you considered the "real final" this year? Or was the Caps series again the "real final" that saw Crosby match Malkin's point totals in effectively only 5 games including setting the tone with two huge games at the beginning.

They found other ways to score, Crosby didn't. He is supposed to be one of the two main point getters in Penguins, and he didn't deliver (Malkin didn't either, but we aren't talking about him as a potential Conn Smythe winner that year) but Bäckström/Ovechkin did. Instead HBK showed up and delivered.

Malkin had more goals in the finals against Nashville, that would exclude all assists - is that better for you? Would that tell the whole story?

This year didn't have that one real final since our team got challenged by all 4 teams they were up against. And Malkins domination against CBJ goes far beyond secondary assists. Malkin was clearly better against both CBJ and Senators, and as you said - scored as many points as Crosby against Capitals. In the finals Malkin still scored 3 goals, it was just that Crosby was even better that round. So if every round is equally important, Crosby might not even be in the running in 2017 for me since he was HORRIBLE against CBJ and not more than just good against Senators.

The thing with you is that you don't even bother reading what I'm saying and starts to mix up years. Ill make it easier for you.
1. Crosby didn't deserve it in 2016.
2. Crosby did deserve it in 2017, but I think Malkin deserved it even more.
3. Since hes been among the best in three runs (2008, 2009 and 2017) I'm fine with him having won a Conn Smythe.
 

NoMessi

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I don't think you'll see a single Pittsburgh Penguin fan say Crosby is better than Mario. He may have the better career when he is finished, he may have the better career in terms of winning right now, but Lemieux is clearly the best Penguin of all time in terms of actual play and nobody is ever coming close.

I just thought I post this photo from Penguins official Facebook page once again. https://www.facebook.com/penguins/p...13732078764/10156140734973765/?type=3&theater

57 000 people liked/loved that post, even if people in the comments section might not have agreed.
 

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They found other ways to score, Crosby didn't. He is supposed to be one of the two main point getters in Penguins, and he didn't deliver (Malkin didn't either, but we aren't talking about him as a potential Conn Smythe winner that year) but Bäckström/Ovechkin did. Instead HBK showed up and delivered.

Malkin had more goals in the finals against Nashville, that would exclude all assists - is that better for you? Would that tell the whole story?

This year didn't have that one real final since our team got challenged by all 4 teams they were up against. And Malkins domination against CBJ goes far beyond secondary assists. Malkin was clearly better against both CBJ and Senators, and as you said - scored as many points as Crosby against Capitals. In the finals Malkin still scored 3 goals, it was just that Crosby was even better that round. So if every round is equally important, Crosby might not even be in the running in 2017 for me since he was HORRIBLE against CBJ and not more than just good against Senators.

The thing with you is that you don't even bother reading what I'm saying and starts to mix up years. Ill make it easier for you.
1. Crosby didn't deserve it in 2016.
2. Crosby did deserve it in 2017, but I think Malkin deserved it even more.
3. Since hes been among the best in three runs (2008, 2009 and 2017) I'm fine with him having won a Conn Smythe.


I always chuckle at the "Crosby didn't deserve the 2016 Smythe", often using the total points and Washington series as the killer blow to 87's win.

Anyone can poke holes in any other Penguins player at various points throughout 2016.

I watched every second of every game. Malkin was even less effective than Sid was. Letang faded as the playoffs went on. Murray had a great run for a rookie but certainly was sheltered and didn't blow you away in terms of numbers. Kessel had the most points (by 3) but plays zero defense and the HBK line had the easiest match ups every step of the way. Plus, how many big goals did Kessel score? Had 0 game winners. Sid had 3, including an OT winner when Pitt was down 1-0 to Tampa in the ECF. Crosby also had the primary assist on the Cup winning goal.

There was no clear cut winner on Pittsburgh in 2016. It wasn't a strong Smythe for Sid and wouldn't have been for any Penguins player. Saying anything different is delusional.

As for 2017? Malkin deserved it more? Ok, why?

Crosby played 2 fewer games (missed all but 2 minutes of game 3 and all of game 4) and scored 1 less point overall. Not to mention he came back quickly from a concussion so it's remarkable he was able to continue being effective. He was unreal in games 1 and 2 vs Washington, before getting his head caved in.

People like yourself routinely bash Crosby for being an "early round compiler" but completely gloss over the fact that Malkin scored 39% of his points in round 1, most of which were secondary assists. I had the secondary point totals around somewhere (must be on my home computer), but Malkin easily had the most on Pittsburgh.

Malkin's point totals went 11, 7, 6, 4.
Crosby's went 7, 7, 6, 7.

Malkin scored 11 of his 28 points on the PP
Crosby scored 9 of his 27 points on the PP

Big moments?

Who assisted on the game winning goal in game 7 of the Washington series? Crosby

Who assisted on Kunitz's game winning goal in game 7, double OT against Ottawa? Crosby

Who had the most dominant series for Pittsburgh in the finals? Crosby.

I was at game 5 of the Finals. Pretty amazing game to be at, first off, and secondly it was probably the most dominant game Crosby has ever played in the postseason. He won the Conn Smythe that night. No doubt in my mind. He dictated the entire tempo and direction of that game from the opening face off and the team completely turned the series to Pitt.

Crosby was the most steady performer for Pittsburgh from round 1 onward, and then stepped up big time in the finals. Heading into the Nashville series, it was probably Malkin by a little bit, but Crosby won the Smythe because he was the best player in the most important series. It was the same thing back in 2009 when Malkin won, largely on the fact he was considerably better than Crosby vs Detroit in the finals.
 

Rhiessan71

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You aren't going to convince a poster who is happy when Crosby gets potential career ending injuries of anything.

Yeah, by all means just keep on misquoting and exaggerating what I said.

Whatever it takes to divert from the truth of what Casanova said eh
Nothing new here folks.

It kills me to watch history rewritten so badly a little more than a year after it happened.
Kessel was a one-dimensional player, Malkin sucked, Murray was really good but sheltered, HBK had the easiest minutes, Letang faded.
Oh but Crosby, he was a defensive god, he was their best player every night bla bla bla.
Well he wasn't their best player every night in 2016, his defense game is highly over-rated and the fact remains that he disappeared in their toughest series of the playoffs.
That if not for HBK and Murray, the Caps roll over the Pens in 5 games or less and we're debating whether or not the Boston Conf Final is still the worst playoff series of Sid's career.

Yes, Kessel should have won the '16 Smythe.
Why? Simple, he lead the team in scoring, was their most consistent performer and most importantly, he picked up the slack when Crosby and Malkin were crapping the bed.
 

Gurglesons

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I just thought I post this photo from Penguins official Facebook page once again. https://www.facebook.com/penguins/p...13732078764/10156140734973765/?type=3&theater

57 000 people liked/loved that post, even if people in the comments section might not have agreed.

Really?

Do you get your political news coverage from Facebook too?

Also, I don't think anyone in management considers Crosby better than Lemieux.

I could see the argument for Crosby being top five if he wins another Smythe in the next two years. That legitimizes the Penguins as a dynasty as him as captain and the obvious best player on that dynasty. Even then he will always be behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. That is just a fact.
 

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Yeah, by all means just keep on misquoting and exaggerating what I said.

Whatever it takes to divert from the truth of what Casanova said eh
Nothing new here folks.

It kills me to watch history rewritten so badly a little more than a year after it happened.
Kessel was a one-dimensional player, Malkin sucked, Murray was really good but sheltered, HBK had the easiest minutes, Letang faded.
Oh but Crosby, he was a defensive god, he was their best player every night bla bla bla.
Well he wasn't their best player every night in 2016, his defense game is highly over-rated and the fact remains that he disappeared in their toughest series of the playoffs.
That if not for HBK and Murray, the Caps roll over the Pens in 5 games or less and we're debating whether or not the Boston Conf Final is still the worst playoff series of Sid's career.

Yes, Kessel should have won the '16 Smythe.
Why? Simple, he lead the team in scoring, was their most consistent performer and most importantly, he picked up the slack when Crosby and Malkin were crapping the bed.

Yeah, by all means just keep on misquoting and exaggerating what I said.

Whatever it takes to divert from the truth of what Casanova said eh
Nothing new here folks.

It kills me to watch history rewritten so badly a little more than a year after it happened.
Kessel was a one-dimensional player, Malkin sucked, Murray was really good but sheltered, HBK had the easiest minutes, Letang faded.
Oh but Crosby, he was a defensive god, he was their best player every night bla bla bla.
Well he wasn't their best player every night in 2016, his defense game is highly over-rated and the fact remains that he disappeared in their toughest series of the playoffs.

That if not for HBK and Murray, the Caps roll over the Pens in 5 games or less and we're debating whether or not the Boston Conf Final is still the worst playoff series of Sid's career.

Yes, Kessel should have won the '16 Smythe.
Why? Simple, he lead the team in scoring, was their most consistent performer and most importantly, he picked up the slack when Crosby and Malkin were crapping the bed.


I find it funny that somebody who hates Crosby/Penguins so much claims to have vast knowledge of a playoff run that he most likely did not watch all of. You're not a Pens fan, so I ask, did you really watch every second of every game?

Here are facts from a person who watched every second of every game:

Kessel wasn't even the most well rounded player on this line. Hell, he was 3rd, behind Bonino and Hagelin. And why?

Bonino scored at a good rate, had more clutch moments, in big games, and actually plays good, and sometimes great defense. Hagelin, same thing. Plenty of scoring, incredible speed that opened that line up against 2nd and 3rd pairings and he was used extensively on the PK. There is more to hockey than just scoring. If you don't realize that or acknowledge it, there is nothing that will sway your mind in any directions.

And your points about Kessel focus on his point totals specifically, which just proves my point entirely.

He had a whopping 3 more then the next closest person. I already outlined in this thread how many times players with fewer points (by much bigger margins btw) won the Smythe over higher scoring players. So, you overrate a singular entity of the game.

The fact is Kessel is one of, if not the weakest defensive player on the Penguins. He doesn't do much along the boards, and is almost exclusively a perimeter player, especially defensively.

Last year Crosby had 21 takeaways. Kessel 10. Crosby had 32 hits. Kessel 9.

Anyone watching any of their hockey games can see the vast difference, ability, and usage as defensive players between the 2. Those types of numbers bear that out. Crosby was also great in the dot. Kessel doesn't take face offs.

Crosby's vastly overrated on defense? Ok, you're not going to come off that nonsense, but I ask you how did the Thornton-Pavelksi line do in the finals? They went head to head vs Crosby's line. Crosby is rated as he should be defensively. He's somebody who's starting to get Selke recognition because over the past 2-3 years specifically he's taken on a much larger role, 200 foot wise and is performing well. He's not Patrice Bergeron, and never will be. But he is vastly more important defensively than somebody like Phil Kessel.

Crosby was poor in the Washington series. No doubt. But acting like a 2nd round series performance should qualify/disqualify somebody from contention is absurd. I'm sure there are many Conn Smythe winners who had a series where they were less than stellar.

And you claiming revisionist history regarding the other players bolded is more nonsense.

Matt Murray was good, not great. And he wasn't sheltered? Just another reason I KNOW you didn't watch all the games, because if you did, you'd know the Pens were out shot, i believe TWICE, all playoffs long. Now, if you want to fast forward to 2017? Yeah, Murray was fantastic, because of the lack of skill on D, and the fact that he was routinely facing 30+ shots a game. That wasn't the case in 2016.

Kris Letang did fade, which is not surprising. He was playing a hard 29 minutes a night. Ask any reputable Pens fan here, or others who actually watched the ECF and Finals. Folks like MXD have said as much and I know he's not a Pens fan.

And HBK did have the easier match ups. Again, teams weren't sending out Carlson, Hedman, and Vlasic against HBK. Go back and watch. See for yourself.

At the end of the day, it was a weaker Conn Smythe for Sid. Nobody, even Penguins diehards should claim otherwise. But saying is was some sort of highway robbery is nonsense. There was nobody on Pittsburgh who vastly stood out from the rest.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
4,145
You aren't going to convince a poster who is happy when Crosby gets potential career ending injuries of anything.

I've had lots of conversations with Rhiessan, and often agree on things, but if I can't convince him Crosby deserved it he should at least see that he was among a group that did. It isn't hard to come up with a conclusive name that should have gotten it over him. If a player didn't deserve it then obviously someone else did. I just would like to know who else that is.
 

NoMessi

Registered User
Jan 2, 2009
1,697
453
Really?

Do you get your political news coverage from Facebook too?

Also, I don't think anyone in management considers Crosby better than Lemieux.

I could see the argument for Crosby being top five if he wins another Smythe in the next two years. That legitimizes the Penguins as a dynasty as him as captain and the obvious best player on that dynasty. Even then he will always be behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. That is just a fact.

What *MOD EDIT* does that have to do with it!?!? You said "I don't think you'll see a single Pittsburgh Penguin fan say Crosby is better than Mario." Yet I showed you a post where 57000(!!!) liked/loved someone saying it.

Dumbest answer i've gotten in a while.

And if you haven't read any of my other answers in this thread, I can once again say that I don't think Crosby is close to top 5.
 
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Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,942
74,189
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
What *MOD EDIT* does that have to do with it!?!? You said "I don't think you'll see a single Pittsburgh Penguin fan say Crosby is better than Mario." Yet I showed you a post where 57000(!!!) liked/loved someone saying it.

Dumbest answer i've gotten in a while.

And if you haven't read any of my other answers in this thread, I can once again say that I don't think Crosby is close to top 5.

No, you showed me a Facebook picture that confirms Crosby won the Conn Smythe in 2017 with a line that says GOAT.

Nowhere on there does it say Crosby better than Lemieux.
 
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