How close is Crosby to top 5 status now?

[bobholly39]

You know what?
IF Crosby had a 140 pts season with 60+ goals during his career (and if it wasn't 05-06 or 06-07), and another one season at least reasonably close to this so it doesn't look like a complete fluke...

I'm probably switching Lemieux and Beliveau.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Explain your reasoning. How does such a season affect Beliveau or Lemieux in anyway in relation to each other.

 

[daver]

No, not saying he is there yet, but there is no better place to discuss it than here since the main board is every extreme direction you can think of on this issue. Here it is more stable and we will be talking a lot of history on this thread. So I figure he never cracks into the Mount Rushmore of hockey, the "big 4" but can and just might be comfortably slotted in #5 when all is said and done.

Let's assume he has already equalled the Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier group. Maybe surpassed them. The Messier/Esposito/Mikita/Morenz/Lafleur/Jagr group is another story but they aren't top 5 quite. The top 5 candidates are Beliveau/Hull/Richard etc. How does he stack up against them. Keep in mind the comparison is their full careers vs. Crosby's first 12 so far. Here it is:

Cups:
Beliveau - 10
Richard - 8
Crosby - 3
Hull - 1

Keeping in mind the league sizes and such before and after expansion I think 3 (so far) in a 30 team league is pretty darn good.

Top 10 scoring finishes:
Beliveau - 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9
Richard - 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
Hull - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9

Again, he holds up rather well here. Certainly isn't out of place and that goes for two seasons where he was wiped out because of injury.

All-star selections:
Beliveau - 6 First team, 4 2nd team
Richard - 8 First team, 6 2nd team
Crosby - 4 First team, 3 2nd team (this is assuming he is a 2nd team all-star in 2017)
Hull - 10 First team, 2 2nd team

Pretty important to note that Crosby and Beliveau are both centers and that is the best guy to compare him with in this sort of thing, but again, even after 12 years he holds up well.

Hart finishes:
Beliveau - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4
Richard - 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Hull - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7

Still holds up here. Very impressive.

To look at their playoff resumes I'd rank them like this:

Beliveau/Richard
Crosby
Hull

He definitely isn't the worst, but there is still work to be done to surpass the other two I think.

Anyway, we can get into other things such as intangibles and style of play and dominance and such but I thought I would open it up and show everyone just how close he is to these guys.

Right now I have Crosby exactly on par with Yzerman.

And where do you have Yzerman rated? Based on Crosby's resume being much closer to the resumes of Hull, Richard and Belliveau, you must have Yzerman right behind these guys.

 

[SealsFan]

Since ranking forwards, d-men and goalies all together seems to cause problems, would it be better if we ranked them all separately? How then does Crosby rank among fellow forwards?

 

[bobholly39]

Right now I have Crosby exactly on par with Yzerman. The scary thing is that Sid presumably still has another 7-10 years of hockey left in him, barring serious injury.

IF Crosby were to accomplish this, before his career is over, there's a good chance he lands 5th all-time:

- 2 more Cups
- 1 more Conn Smythe
- 3 more Art Ross
- 3 more Harts
- 1 more Rocket
- Avg. 75 points over 8 more seasons (600 total)

That would put Sid at 9th all-time in scoring with 5 Cups, 3 Connies and a nice collection of individual awards, while clearly being the best player of his generation.

If he does that, you're looking at...

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Crosby

Done deal.

If he only accomplishes half of that it gets trickier.

Your standards are waaaay too high imo.

If Crosby accomplishes everything on your list, not only is there now a "big 5" - there's also no guarantee Crosby is only at #5. He could realistically make a claim for quite a bit higher.

 

[MXD]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Explain your reasoning. How does such a season affect Beliveau or Lemieux in anyway in relation to each other.

What makes Lemieux's results so impressive is their unique character.
Crosby (or any other player) doing something similar would somewhat tarnish it by making the thing less unique.

 

[bobholly39]

What makes Lemieux's results so impressive is their unique character.
Crosby (or any other player) doing something similar would somewhat tarnish it by making the thing less unique.

We're going pretty far deep down into the land of hypotheticals with this line of talk but - no. Crosby hitting 60 goals/140 points would not be comparable to Lemieux or Gretzky's best. There's still a very significant gap. And if you think it somehow was comparable to Lemieux/Gretzky - great. Raise Crosby's stock as a result, don't diminish Lemieux (or Gretzky's) stock as a result, which you seem to suggest.

Lemieux >> Beliveau because he was a much higher caliber player.

 

[Namba 17]

Let's assume he has already equalled the Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier group. Maybe surpassed them. The Messier/Esposito/Mikita/Morenz/Lafleur/Jagr group is another story but they aren't top 5 quite.

I believe, that it's much much better to rate centers, wingers, D-men and goalies separately.
As for your post, I think, Crosby clearly surpassed Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier. Where is he now depends on your personal rating Because, as for me, I don't see anything in him that may convince me, that he surpassed, say, Mikita or Esposito.

 

[MXD]

We're going pretty far deep down into the land of hypotheticals with this line of talk but - no. Crosby hitting 60 goals/140 points would not be comparable to Lemieux or Gretzky's best. There's still a very significant gap. And if you think it somehow was comparable to Lemieux/Gretzky - great. Raise Crosby's stock as a result, don't diminish Lemieux (or Gretzky's) stock as a result, which you seem to suggest.

Lemieux >> Beliveau because he was a much higher caliber player.

Let's agree to disagree.

But remember : there's no discussion about Crosby as a Top-5 if he isn't winning this Cup. None. Top-5 implies he passes... Beliveau, amongst others. I'll let you figure out the rest.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I have Crosby 4th amongst centres behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau.

I prefer player to player comparisons. I think comparing him to Morenz and Jagr are the two most fruitful comparisons.

 

[daver]

Is there any argument to be made that Crosby does not have the 5th best resume before the age of 30?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I believe, that it's much much better to rate centers, wingers, D-men and goalies separately.
As for your post, I think, Crosby clearly surpassed Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier. Where is he now depends on your personal rating Because, as for me, I don't see anything in him that may convince me, that he surpassed, say, Mikita or Esposito.

You really have to place really heavy value on career length and fairly light value on playoff performances to not have Crosby over Mikita.

As for the posters who say Crosby is no better than Yzerman - are you kidding me?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there any argument to be made that Crosby does not have the 5th best resume before the age of 30?

I don't see it as necessarily better than Morenz

 

[quoipourquoi]

Since ranking forwards, d-men and goalies all together seems to cause problems, would it be better if we ranked them all separately? How then does Crosby rank among fellow forwards?

I think the problem is that by separating goaltenders from discussion entirely, it minimizes them. Even if we are in agreement that we've had two otherworldly Centers, an otherworldly Winger, and an otherworldly Defenseman - bypassing discussions of goaltenders in favor of more forward comparisons to players like Beliveau/Hull/Morenz/Richard (that predated Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux showing what a skater could do at their very best) is in a way a passive endorsement of the continued downplaying of a vital position - as Beliveau/Hull/Morenz/Richard were often cited as being better than any individual goaltender when they played.

I wouldn't say that the best Center equals the best Winger equals the best Defenseman equals the best Goaltender, but in 2009, HOH assessed that the threshold for being better than the very best at the unique goaltending position was the big four, two more Centers, two more Wingers, and two more Defensemen. We'll continue to get more Lindroses, Jagrs, Forsbergs, Crosbys, Ovechkins, Malkins, and McDavids - and they'll occasionally put it all together for long enough to get in that Beliveau/Hull/Morenz/Richard conversation, but until we start acknowledging Roys, Haseks, and Plantes alongside those names, we may continue to ignore just how unique their contributions were, because we're keeping them off in their own corner.

 

[bobholly39]

Let's agree to disagree.

But remember : there's no discussion about Crosby as a Top-5 if he isn't winning this Cup. None. Top-5 implies he passes... Beliveau, amongst others. I'll let you figure out the rest.

You're always so cryptic in your replies. It would probably be better if you flat out said what you thought instead of letting people figure it out through inuendos.

But yes the cup and smythe help a lot. A 3rd smythe would similarly positively affect Crosby legacy in a much bigger way than another Ross, hart or Rocket would. Smythes tend to be more valuable

 

[Namba 17]

You really have to place really heavy value on career length and fairly light value on playoff performances to not have Crosby over Mikita.

Top 10 scoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4
Top 10 goalscoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 7, 8
Mikita - 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Hart finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

All-star selections:
Crosby - 4 (or 5) First team, 2 (or 3) 2nd team
Mikita - 6 First team, 2 second team.

Mikita once was the best scorer and goal-scorer of the PO.
Crosby never.

Also Mikita was great defensively and even has 2 retro selke. It's retro, off course, but still. I don't even know if Crosby's selke record exists.

Really, what exactly Crosby did, that you think, he surpassed Mikita? Crosby is worse scorer with significantly worse defensive game.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I think regardless of where you have Crosby ranked, it's important to keep into account quality of competition when we're discussing scoring finishes etc. A player like Beliveau accomplished his feats against the likes of Howe, Richard, Hull, Mikita etc. Sidney Crosby is 2 years removed from prime Crosby legitimately losing a scoring title to Jamie Benn of all people. That'd be like prime Jagr losing a scoring title to Markus Naslund. I guess my point is that not all "3rd place scoring finishes" can be treated equally.

 

[daver]

Top 10 scoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4
Top 10 goalscoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 7, 8
Mikita - 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Hart finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

All-star selections:
Crosby - 4 (or 5) First team, 2 (or 3) 2nd team
Mikita - 6 First team, 2 second team.

Mikita once was the best scorer and goal-scorer of the PO.
Crosby never..

Crosby has lead the playoffs in scoring and assists once, in goals another time, in assists another time, and won a CS in another.

Most have him ahead of Mikita based on this, and, IMO, on the value of Crosby's partial seasons vs. Mikita's.

 

[MXD]

Top 10 scoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4
Top 10 goalscoring finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 7, 8
Mikita - 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Hart finishes:
Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Mikita - 1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

All-star selections:
Crosby - 4 (or 5) First team, 2 (or 3) 2nd team
Mikita - 6 First team, 2 second team.

Mikita once was the best scorer and goal-scorer of the PO.
Crosby never.

Also Mikita was great defensively and even has 2 retro selke. It's retro, off course, but still. I don't even know if Crosby's selke record exists.

Really, what exactly Crosby did, that you think, he surpassed Mikita? Crosby is worse scorer with significantly worse defensive game.

The issue with this is that Mikita's defensive game wasn't necessarily "in sync" with is offensive game. I mean, a bit like Steve Yzerman wasn't a terrific 2-way player with a 150 points season. He grew into a terrific 2-way player, at which point he wasn't sniffing 150 points or the equivalent. You might also be underrating Crosby quite a bit defensively.

Granted Mikita was more complete than Yzerman early on, but the point remains.

 

[MXD]

Most have him ahead of Mikita based on this, and, IMO, on the value of Crosby's partial seasons vs. Mikita's.

There's a catch to this though.

If you keep 2013 out of this (because it was only a 48 games season, thus making things harder to compare in a apples-to-apples fashion), Mikita probably has the best "partial" season between both (helped by the fact he played more in his very good partial season than Crosby did in any partial seasons).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparables

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Explain your reasoning. How does such a season affect Beliveau or Lemieux in anyway in relation to each other.

Basically it would show the greatness of late career, post injury/illness accomplishments. Beliveau with 5 such SCs, Crosby with two and counting, Lemieux with zero.

 

[daver]

I think regardless of where you have Crosby ranked, it's important to keep into account quality of competition when we're discussing scoring finishes etc. A player like Beliveau accomplished his feats against the likes of Howe, Richard, Hull, Mikita etc. Sidney Crosby is 2 years removed from prime Crosby legitimately losing a scoring title to Jamie Benn of all people. That'd be like prime Jagr losing a scoring title to Markus Naslund. I guess my point is that not all "3rd place scoring finishes" can be treated equally.

There are many things that come to mind that aren't really productive to this discussion:

One could point to a "prime" Belliveau finishing 8th in scoring 57/58.

If we are going down this rabbit hole of quality of competition then I would open the door to discussion of quantity of competition.

But I don't think a focus on Crosby's worst full season, one that was interrupted by a viral infection, plus a subjective opinion on Jamie Benn's Art Ross win, makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[Namba 17]

Crosby has lead the playoffs in scoring and assists once, in goals another time, in assists another time, and won a CS in another.

Most have him ahead of Mikita based on this, and, IMO, on the value of Crosby's partial seasons vs. Mikita's.

My bad. He was the best goal-scorer once. He also had one PO when he was tied in points, but had less goals - I didn't count that, but you may consider this too.
I also didn't mention Crosby's Conn Smythes - 2. There were no CS in Mikita's time, but he has one retro one. Once again - it's retro, but still.
So, they have pretty similar PO performances - I may give an edge to Crosby here, but nothing that outstanding. It's not enough to overcome offensive/defensive gap, to my mind.

 

[daver]

There's a catch to this though.

If you keep 2013 out of this (because it was only a 48 games season, thus making things harder to compare in a apples-to-apples fashion), Mikita probably has the best "partial" season between both (helped by the fact he played more in his very good partial season than Crosby did in any partial seasons).

If you are referring to Mikita's 57 game 72/73 season (3rd in PPG), I don't see much difference between that season and Crosby's 53 game 07/08 season (2nd in PPG).

Then we have 10/11 and 12/13.

As for dismissing a 48 game season in a Mikita vs. Crosby comparison, should we exclude any season that was 50 games or less from this discussion?

 

[Namba 17]

The issue with this is that Mikita's defensive game wasn't necessarily "in sync" with is offensive game. I mean, a bit like Steve Yzerman wasn't a terrific 2-way player with a 150 points season. He grew into a terrific 2-way player, at which point he wasn't sniffing 150 points or the equivalent. You might also be underrating Crosby quite a bit defensively.

Granted Mikita was more complete than Yzerman early on, but the point remains.

From what I know about Mikita, he was always from very good to great two-way player. One year he got that retro-selke he was 2nd in points.
Crosby is decent or even good defensively, but nothing special.

 

[daver]

My bad. He was the best goal-scorer once. He also had one PO when he was tied in points, but had less goals - I didn't count that, but you may consider this too.
I also didn't mention Crosby's Conn Smythes - 2. There were no CS in Mikita's time, but he has one retro one. Once again - it's retro, but still.
So, they have pretty similar PO performances - I may give an edge to Crosby here, but nothing that outstanding. It's not enough to overcome offensive/defensive gap, to my mind.

What is the offensive gap and how cannot you not give Crosby the clear playoff edge in applying the same metrics?

And Mikita's playoff stats were for 12 games. Crosby had a similar statline with more than double the goals line after 17 games in 2009. Doesn't seem quite right to award Mikita with the "better playoff run".