News Article: Horachek preaching 5-5-5 defense

[Rizzy13]

They were doing exactly what the coaching staff asked them to do.

The amount of times we could have easily chipped it up off the boards instead of trying to pass it through forecheckers was insane. Pretty sure the coaching staff would have asked them to make the easy play. This is basic hockey stuff, chip it off the boards and get it out and we fail to do that on so many nights.

The reactions they would show on Carlyle's face - him grabbing his face, clear frustration and confusion - just like what the fan's showed is due to the players just not functioning properly at crucial times of the game and in the defensive zone when they are under some pressure.

Coaching staff did not ask the defensive coverage to do what it did most of the time, because it was just failing overall at playing simple hockey, something that players are supposed to be aware of in important situations.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Senators head coach Paul MacLean wants his forwards to engage opponents who go to the half-wall with the puck in the defensive zone. Ryan remembers then-Ducks head coach Randy Carlyle demanding they stay in the middle of the ice. "If the goalie can't stop it from out there, we'll get another one," Ryan said Carlyle would say.

Of course this means that the Leafs were essentially told to SURRENDER certain portions of the defensive zone because it was unlikely the other team could score from those areas.

Maybe they couldn't score from those areas but it did mean that they could pin us in our zone all game long.

 

[TieClark]

Of course this means that the Leafs were essentially told to SURRENDER certain portions of the defensive zone because it was unlikely the other team could score from those areas.

Maybe they couldn't score from those areas but it did mean that they could pin us in our zone all game long.

If you have a strong counter attack it's really not that big of a deal.

The issues arose when they couldn't control other teams play to those areas.

 

[Guy Boucher]

The amount of times we could have easily chipped it up off the boards instead of trying to pass it through forecheckers was insane. Pretty sure the coaching staff would have asked them to make the easy play. This is basic hockey stuff, chip it off the boards and get it out and we fail to do that on so many nights.

The reactions they would show on Carlyle's face - him grabbing his face, clear frustration and confusion - just like what the fan's showed is due to the players just not functioning properly at crucial times of the game and in the defensive zone when they are under some pressure.

Coaching staff did not ask the defensive coverage to do what it did most of the time, because it was just failing overall at playing simple hockey, something that players are supposed to be aware of in important situations.

That's my opinion anyway.

No, they tried going up the boards often. However the other teams outnumbered us along the boards, since our centers played so low in the defensive zone.

Each time they tried to go up the boards, they were outnumbered and the puck was kept in our zone. That's when defenders try to do stupid things are go across the ice/up the middle.

Hockey systems are a little bit more complicated today than just "go up the boards". The look on Carlyle's face was utter confusion because he was consistently out-coached.

 

[Guy Boucher]

If you have a strong counter attack it's really not that big of a deal.

The issues arose when they couldn't control other teams play to those areas.

Actually it is a big deal. They couldn't maintain possession in the other teams zone because by the time they got out of their own zone - IF they got out of their own zone - they were too tired to do anything besides a "one and done" play before peeling off for a change.

If you can't transition out of your zone, you will always have a terrible team.

 

[King85Kong]

No, they tried going up the boards often. However the other teams outnumbered us along the boards, since our centers played so low in the defensive zone.

Each time they tried to go up the boards, they were outnumbered and the puck was kept in our zone. That's when defenders try to do stupid things are go across the ice/up the middle.

Hockey systems are a little bit more complicated today than just "go up the boards". The look on Carlyle's face was utter confusion because he was consistently out-coached.

Actually it is a big deal. They couldn't maintain possession in the other teams zone because by the time they got out of their own zone - IF they got out of their own zone - they were too tired to do anything besides a "one and done" play before peeling off for a change.

If you can't transition out of your zone, you will always have a terrible team.

This man speaks the truth. The collapse style that Carlyle imposed was sheer stupidity. Lets have the other team take 40 shots from the point. Hopefully no deflections or screens happen. Recipe for success.

 

[UllmansTiger]

Horachek is simply saying that this year management expects every player to forecheck and backcheck aggressively, without singling anyone individually out..

When your 26th in goals against and 30th in shots against it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize you have to be better defensively and that takes a solid commitment and effort from everyone that is on the ice at the time.

5 players in the defensive zone supports the defense and 5 in the offensive zone to drive puck possession and 5 in the middle to help control the attack.

Reminds me of the refrain 'compete, ffs'. One of the players I'm going to miss to that end is Kulemin, he was priced out of the Leafs range/willingness to use him offensively, still he was a great example of being 'that player'.

Anywho, I'm glad they're throwing down the gauntlet, though I'm still somewhat convinced that what they need is a blue and white petard, but if they commit to keeping picks, developing prospects, driving home a sound defensive game, maximizing their strength ( money ) then they might have a chance at some point ( read, get Stamkos and have a pipeline full of cheap good prospects to support that iceberg... unless that's too 'Burkian' an expectation/hope ).

 

[realgoodleafs]

The amount of times we could have easily chipped it up off the boards instead of trying to pass it through forecheckers was insane. Pretty sure the coaching staff would have asked them to make the easy play. This is basic hockey stuff, chip it off the boards and get it out and we fail to do that on so many nights.

The reactions they would show on Carlyle's face - him grabbing his face, clear frustration and confusion - just like what the fan's showed is due to the players just not functioning properly at crucial times of the game and in the defensive zone when they are under some pressure.

Coaching staff did not ask the defensive coverage to do what it did most of the time, because it was just failing overall at playing simple hockey, something that players are supposed to be aware of in important situations.

That's my opinion anyway.

Randy tells the players to go into a vulnerable position. The result shouldn't confuse him. We all saw "the swarm" that Edmonton used this year with Eakins...no surprise that Toronto players complained directly to Shanahan about "the swarm".

 

[UllmansTiger]

Randy tells the players to go into a vulnerable position. The result shouldn't confuse him. We all saw "the swarm" that Edmonton used this year with Eakins...no surprise that Toronto players complained directly to Shanahan about "the swarm".

Am I missing something? What Toronto players complained directly to Shanahan?

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Sounds good in theory but we do have a lot of personnel who thrive by cheating on defense to generate counter rushes, so we'll see how this works out.

Yeah, this.

All the people that talk incessantly about how the problem is Carlyle and his awful system, or awful lack of a system, need to take a real good look at the players on the roster. Does anyone here really think that anyone in the Leafs' top six aside from Bozak will commit to coming back and being part of the "5 in the defensive zone" concept?

Hell most of them always seem to have one foot over the blue line, or even the red line, even while the opposing team is pressuring. I think the coaching staff has their work cut out for them this season. Just as Carlyle and crew did last year. Based on what we've seen the past couple of years, this is a pretty uncoachable crew. Maybe that will change with all the pressure on this year, but we'll see.

 

[realgoodleafs]

Am I missing something? What Toronto players complained directly to Shanahan?

Ask Shanahan, he's the one who said players told him they were confused and not confident in "the swarm".

Yeah, this.

All the people that talk incessantly about how the problem is Carlyle and his awful system, or awful lack of a system, need to take a real good look at the players on the roster. Does anyone here really think that anyone in the Leafs' top six aside from Bozak will commit to coming back and being part of the "5 in the defensive zone" concept?

Hell most of them always seem to have one foot over the blue line, or even the red line, even while the opposing team is pressuring. I think the coaching staff has their work cut out for them this season. Just as Carlyle and crew did last year. Based on what we've seen the past couple of years, this is a pretty uncoachable crew. Maybe that will change with all the pressure on this year, but we'll see.

Randy had the same problem even with Getzlaf, Perry, Pronger, and Neidermeyer. That's why he got fired.

 

[Semantics]

If you have a strong counter attack it's really not that big of a deal.

The issues arose when they couldn't control other teams play to those areas.

The Leafs counter-attack was great - we had an average offense despite spending the least amount of time in the offensive zone in the entire NHL.

You can't win with just a strong counter attack. When was the last time you saw a successful team that gets all their goals on the rush? That just doesn't happen. And the Leafs never had the puck because if the opposing team had no play towards the net they could just dump it to the point or half wall knowing the Leafs weren't going to challenge them there and they could just reset the play. The Leafs did force the play to "those areas". Instead of getting the puck back. That's the crux of the problem.

In today's NHL possession time translates to shots translates to scoring chances translates to goals. If you divide goals against by time spent in own end the Leafs actually stack up alright. We spent 37% more 5v5 time in the defensive zone than Chicago (as estimated by faceoffs), and only allowed 12% more goals. You look at this sort of thing and you see that this team could actually defend halfway decently on a per-minute basis, and it was just the sheer crazy amount of time they spent in their own end that killed them.

 

[Semantics]

Am I missing something? What Toronto players complained directly to Shanahan?

The ones with triple digit IQs who have an understanding of how defense is normally played in hockey, most likely.

Considering that numerous players from both teams he's coached have come out and called him an idiot in PUBLIC, you'd have to think there's quite a few players complaining about him in private during their exit interviews with Nonis and then with Shannahan when he joined.

I mean come on, why else would Carlyle suddenly decide to change the system for next year? I don't think he suddenly had an epiphany that the system he'd been using for the past 5+ years doesn't work. The management, after receiving input from players, obviously wanted a change.

 

[Leafspoison*]

Too many issues but a good start making players responsible defensively. Problems occur in a break out or stretch pass that goes bad. You D is making the stretch pass, while the other D is still protecting the front of the net, puck gets turned over at the far blue line and things go in the toilet. You need players responsible on the back check. When the breakout pass or stretch pass works, the the D are still lumbering out of their zone.

 

[zeke]

Well, let's break down their defensive issues. Its not easy, because there were a ton.

1. They just gave away the neutral zone. Almost as if they get into their defensive shell as soon as the other team breaks out of their zone. The other team faces literally no opposition until they get the puck into our zone.

2. The leafs concede the perimeter in their own zone - again intentionally - favoring a PK type box even at even strength. There's some logic to this but to me it seems its an outdated tactic that is easily exploited by patient forechecking teams, leading to superlong shifts in our own end, plenty of longshots looking for something to bounce in off of, and ultimately a major breakdown in the box at some point.

3. The leafs are horrific at getting sideboard pucks out of their own zone cleanly. This has a lot to do with them being dead tired after long shifts in their own zone, and also a lack of outlet options, both forward and backwards. The other teams have keyed on this because they know its crucial to our transition game, and always seem to have one forward jumping on the rear outlet dman while the pointman rushes in to close of the forward outlet. It doesn't help that a lot of our wingers are *******, either,

4. Our forecheck support is Pejorative Slured. It seems everyone is just guessing where to go to support the guy with the puck, and they guess wrong way too often, leading to pathetically easily squandered offensive zone possession far too often, and easy breakouts the other way.


Anything else i'm missing?

 

[zeke]

in his press conference right after the St. Louis game near the end of the year, Carlyle was saying they were trying to get the team to play similar to what St. Louis does. obviously there not good enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTGgfQhM2pg

You make the mistake of thinking that randy actually knows what the blues were doing out there.

"I want them to play like the good teams" is not hard to say.

 

[Mess]

I think Horachek is saying the Kessel waiting at center ice for 100ft breakout passes from the defense deep in their own zone is being removed from the playbook this year..

Sounds like they're going to insist all players be in the same zone as the puck and no more cheating for offensive rush attacks , leaving teammates out manned and outnumbered.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

The amount of times we could have easily chipped it up off the boards instead of trying to pass it through forecheckers was insane.

Chipping out of the boards is a terrible strategy. You're just giving away the puck.

 

[Menzinger]

With new defencive systems, it'll be interesting to see how, or if the team improves. Playoff hockey next Spring would be a very pleasant surprise. But the team's got a long way to go.

 

[UllmansTiger]

Ask Shanahan, he's the one who said players told him they were confused and not confident in "the swarm".



Randy had the same problem even with Getzlaf, Perry, Pronger, and Neidermeyer. That's why he got fired.

Commenting on a tactic when asked by the boss is one thing, complaining to him is another. Fwiw I'm pretty sure Carlyle himself said they were trying to change their tactics later in the year, waaaay too late but before Shanahan arrived.

Also, Pronger and Niedermayer? For one thing, Carlyle's exit was a little past theirs and what team wouldn't suffer losing those two? That team had the necessary talent for a cup run, the Leafs don't.

 

[UllmansTiger]

The ones with triple digit IQs who have an understanding of how defense is normally played in hockey, most likely.

Considering that numerous players from both teams he's coached have come out and called him an idiot in PUBLIC, you'd have to think there's quite a few players complaining about him in private during their exit interviews with Nonis and then with Shannahan when he joined.

I mean come on, why else would Carlyle suddenly decide to change the system for next year? I don't think he suddenly had an epiphany that the system he'd been using for the past 5+ years doesn't work. The management, after receiving input from players, obviously wanted a change.

Like I said in the previous post, they tried a new approach near the end of last year but way too late. Considering who the players were that called him out publicly, I'm not sure I'd give it a lot of credence given the circumstances and the lack of professionalism.

Also considering that numerous players mailed in the last 14 + games, scapegoating ain't that surprising.

Y'know, one thing that jumped out at me, during the 24/7 broadcasts ( can't remember which one ) Holland was sitting with Reimer and made a comment about 'win and you're in', he didn't see much ice time after that. If one can see the writing on the wall, and Carlyle is still the coach, shouldn't these triple digit IQ's hone in just a little?

 

[Guy Boucher]

I think Horachek is saying the Kessel waiting at center ice for 100ft breakout passes from the defense deep in their own zone is being removed from the playbook this year..

Sounds like they're going to insist all players be in the same zone as the puck and no more cheating for offensive rush attacks , leaving teammates out manned and outnumbered.

Yea, this is a fantasy. All 5 leafs were not only always in the defensive zone, they were usually all below the hashmarks. This idea that Kessel or JVR stayed up at the red line waiting for passes is pure fantasy.

The only thing that's significant about Horachek's statement is the idea of keeping all 5 leafs in the neutral zone (instead of surrendering it) and using all 5 leafs in the offensive zone. They didn't do that last season.

 

[X66]

I give Randy a ton of crap, but I think Dave Farrish deserved a ton of blame as well. Both of them have been arguably the worst tandem when it comes to a bottom 5 puck possession stat for the last half decade(with 2 different teams).

Farrish handled the Defence, and he hasn't been successful in that department in ages, Carlyle is no better for not fixing it, which I doubt he's capable of...

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Of course this means that the Leafs were essentially told to SURRENDER certain portions of the defensive zone because it was unlikely the other team could score from those areas.

Maybe they couldn't score from those areas but it did mean that they could pin us in our zone all game long.

Bro with the abysmal system that Carlyle ran it was pretty obvious. Points were left wide open. Heck, continuously getting out shot, hell the shot against totals for us was what like 35 on average for the whole season?

We were bound to play in our own zone for substantial amount of time with a system like that causing: Goalies to face higher number of shots, keep lateral movement always on the go (Bernier groin injury), force less shots, play less in the offensive zone etc....

It was bound to fail. If it wasn't for Bernier we would have picked in the top 3 this draft

 

[gravyface]

This man speaks the truth. The collapse style that Carlyle imposed was sheer stupidity. Lets have the other team take 40 shots from the point. Hopefully no deflections or screens happen. Recipe for success.

We were playing a swarm system, not collapse.