Rumor: Holmgren chose Luke Schenn over Yandle? Ouch.

[Damaged Goods]

So, the people who have come out against the Pannacio rumor are more believable than Pannacio, especially since Yandle was never dealt. That's somewhat of a relief.

Schenn's my favorite hitter on the team, but I thought it was clear this deal would be a net loss from Day One, and it has been.

 

[ahthorne]

Ugh. I was just coming on here to ask why again Holmgren traded JVR for Luke Schenn. I was just watching highlights of the 2011 and 12 playoffs and JVR was so good with so much potential that they just threw away.

One of the worst trades in Flyers history?

Every team makes bad trades and bad signings and bad draft choices and mistakes in letting players go to free agency or whatever mistake you could make. Even over the past few years I can think of some trades that are a lot worse like the Phaneuf and James Neal trades.

JVR was pretty raw at the time, to be honest. Often injured and didn't really get much of a chance. The team clearly had an abundance of forwards - Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Briere, B. Schenn, Couturier, Hartnell, Read, etc. - and JVR wasn't playing on the same level as the other forwards during that playoff year again likely due to injury.

A big issue in all this was the hype the Flyers had after beating the Penguins. They beat the cup favourite in 6 games on the back of an offense lead by Giroux and his supporting cast with little contribution from JVR - making it seem like he was expendable. Bryzgalov and a mediocre defense is what caused them to crumble against the Devils. Luke Schenn is a big, physical defender who hits hard and often and is still young while having played a ton of NHL games. He's no spring chicken but he's also nowhere near his prime.

Clearly, a pure offensive defender who has a reputation of being not-so-great defensively wasn't fixing anything other than adding a blue chip defender to the roster so it looks good on paper and the asking price was obviously more than just JVR. Try JVR+Couturier+.

 

[Sawdalite]

If I recall correctly....and Meltzer I think said the same...it was more the Parise and Suter attempt that got Jagr and Carle kicked to the curb. And again, the argument was that Holmgren shouldn't have really gone after those two since the likelihood of BOTH of them agreeing to come here was very low as Meltzer also said. He is the one that actually called it a pipe dream. The Weber offer sheet was a more understandable and even reasonable attempt despite the massive cost since they apparently already courted him and he was willing to come here....

Parise and Suter they did go after and that also shifted gears with Carle, and landing Suter would have also halted re-signing Carle... THEN, the time they took for the Weber OS and the subsequent time-lapse in Nashville's matching further delayed any consideration.

All that said, we still can't forget that had they the Cap Space Tagging Room to work out an extension for Carle at a more reasonable amount, they may have worked out a deal and then gone to plan 'B' which may or may not have been another D-man on a tier below Suter and Weber, or upp the ante on Parise and hoping he decided he's better off with a higher salary than a partnership deal... or even gone another route entirely... The thing is, as I see it, the option was not there and they had to await July 1st, and since Carle was then a UFA also and on the FreeMarket, they went for the bigger fish... more impact players... and the limited Cap Room precluded their considering more signings... they had to pull the reins in and not get into a situation where they might strike deals bringing the Cap too high. Again, it was Pronger being in that Cap as dead weight entirely before the Season started that tied Homers hands somewhat more than they should have been tied.

 

[Damaged Goods]

Welp, only three more offseasons until it expires...

 

[GKJ]

As it's a major theme in the thread, it's worth mentioning that using free agency as a crutch, is not a good thing. The Wild were all-out going for Parise and Suter and they're barely a playoff team.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

1) that was a Lavi problem. His plan sucked, he didn't adjust it for months after it failed. When he began adjusting it, it got better. Berube has completely overhauled it and the same D corps is doing just fine...funny how that works. And no, Streit suprisingly isn't really a factor there. If anything he often looks lost trying to get the puck out of the D zone...he's nearly made some very costly errors behind the net when pressured. I didn't expect that, but it's often been the case.

2) The team produced less offense when Carle was on the ice than Coburn. Carle's GFON/60 didn't support him as an offensive Dman, at all. Carle wasn't all that special in the offensive zone. If anything, his complete lack of shot made him a detriment because teams knew they only needed to defend the pass. Also...imagine this team with Carle and Yandle instead of Coburn. My God, there would be no defense. There's more to a D corps than just offense.

3) When they made the trade there was zero way of knowing for sure there would be an amnesty. They had to prepare for the possibilty of having Bryz for a longgggg time, and that meant defensive dmen.


4) And for the millionth time, you're very clearly using hindsight. At the time of the 2011 trades we had holes to fill on offense...and no way to do it outside of trades. The defense was completely set and was expected to be set for at least 2-3 years, giving them some room to work with. Pronger was still around. The offense was the driving need at that point. Addressing the defense would have turned us into something resembling Nashville. The forward group was the bigger concern, as was the prospect pool. The trades just happened to fill all the holes in the roster at forward...convenient, huh? Almost like Homer tried to make it work that way. If Simmonds doesn't come back, who would be in his spot right now? There was nobody to plug in, and not enough cap room to go to FA.

Homer tried to get a dman from LA but it didn't happen. He can't hold Lombardi down and waterboard him until he trades the guy.

1) It was a problem it was due to lack of ability of the defenseman to move the puck.
All Burube did was to compensate for our lack of PMD by changing the scheme even more.
This defense corp is playing better, but as a whole it compares unfavorably to teams with a PMD and #1 Defensemen.

2) Carle was the 2nd best defenseman available when Sutter was UFA.
Broadstreet Hockey certainly has a different point of view on Carle, than did the Lightning who saw value and quickly signed him.
You still had Grossman and Timonen and a defensive defenseman could be acquired for 2nd round pick if needed.

3) Bryz as reason for trading for Schenn is weak excuse for bad trade, IMHO.
I do not think the Flyers should have traded for Schenn, he is the wrong style of defenseman for this team.
We could have had a defensive defenseman for a lot less than JVR.

4) I take exception to the fact that the defense was fine in 2011.
Just because you have 6 NHL players does not mean its an OK defense.
Pronger, 37 years old, out injured with possible concussion.
Timonen who is 36 years old and will probably start to regress in his ability.
In addition there was: Coburn, Carle, Mezaros and Grossman.
My problem with their plan is that they did not plan for the future, their prospects were not future NHL defensemen.
They brought in a goalie (not really--BRYZ), but failed to address the medocrity of the defense.
Your top 2 defenders are getting older and the team needs to plan for the future.
I did not know Mezaros was going to be injury prone and a shell of himself.
But, I did not feel Coburn was the answer as a PMD, he was a better defensive defenseman.
I did know that none of the other defenders looked like a #1 defenseman.


Given the fact that the Flyers draft forwards well, I would have preferred to go the Nashville route.
Solidify the back end first, then solidify the forward corp of the team.
If we have to fill the front end with AHLers so be it. Atleast we have the hope of better days ahead.
My 2 cents is simply: Why the insanity? Why do we build the team the same way that failed for the last 35+ years?

I understand that Flyers goal is to win the cup every year and they try to build the team with that goal in mind.
The problem is that the team got younger in the front end, and not in the back end.
The fact that Holmgren ignored the defensive issues just over the horizon, and gambled that the defense
would be fine tells me all I need to know. He is not the GM to fix this team.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

I'm sorry am I the only one who sees Luke Schenn as an average third pairing d-man? Even if he reaches his "potential" he'll be what? A hard hitting stay at home d-man? How is that worth 25 goal-50 point second line player?

Never saw him as anything special.
Wanted good PMD for last 2 years, but still waiting on that.