- Aug 24, 2011
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For some reason I just became aware of this beauty a few months ago. Have put about 35 hours into it and absolutely love it. Who else has played it? What are your thoughts
I also don't understand the fascination that modern games have with death systems where you have return to where you died or risk permanently losing your loot (seems like weirdly regressive design philosophy even compared to NES era thinking).
One of my favourite games of last decade, I'm pumped for 'Silk Song' to come out.
I’m only 1/3rd of the way done with Hollow Knight and I’m already super bummed out that Silk Knight won’t be on Xbox/Play Station
I get that that's the purpose, and I agree that I often like the story implications of it (Lore-wise it works for this game as well), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the actual game design.It adds tension by making losing your life a costly mistake. It also urges you to try to get further and further into each area by surpassing your last attempt as you see your remains getting closer and closer to the end each try.
In Dark Souls I find it fits the themes of the game quite well, in some of these other games it seems like it's in there just because it's expected in a "souls-like" game now. In Jedi Fallen Order that mechanic really doesn't fit imo.
I’m only 1/3rd of the way done with Hollow Knight and I’m already super bummed out that Silk Knight won’t be on Xbox/Play Station
I get that that's the purpose, and I agree that I often like the story implications of it (Lore-wise it works for this game as well), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the actual game design.
As a mechanic, I find it more tedious and needlessly restrictive rather than actually adding anything worthwhile, personally. Particular in this type of game (where you have the option to tackle areas in any order and where the game isn't lacking in difficulty), I think it really hurts exploration in the sense that you might feel that the reason you died was because you weren't ready for an area, but end up having no choice but to repeatedly bang your head against that wall for no reason instead of allowing the death to be instructive about what your approach should be. It also just seems like a very hollow, inelegant, and artificial way to raise the stakes to me-- The raw loss itself/having to start again should be enough and is a much more meaningful and natural form of a punishment/incentive, in my opinion. You can add any dumb obstacle/limitation to an experience (like bad controls for example) and argue that it adds to the tension.
I get that that's the purpose (and I agree that I usually like the story implications of it), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the game design.
As a mechanic, I find it more tedious and needlessly restrictive rather than actually adding anything worthwhile, personally. I think it really hurts exploration in the sense that you might feel that the reason you died was because you weren't ready for an area, but end up having no choice but to repeatedly bang your head against that wall for no reason instead of allowing the death to be instructive. It also just seems like a very hollow, inelegant, and artificial way to raise the stakes to me-- The raw loss itself/having to start again should be enough and is a much more meaningful and natural form of a punishment, in my opinion. You can add any dumb obstacle/limitation to an experience (like bad controls for example) and argue that it adds to the tension.
Do you have any specific examples? Because I haven’t ran across any issues yet other than Lost Kin that fit your description of getting to an area before your skills and abilities catch up.
You can go to The Catacombs and New Londo Ruins right at the start, but the game tells you right away that you're in the wrong place by putting you up against enemies that can't be killed.
Technically you can but it’s a difficult area to get to. I’d bet 95% of first time play throughs don’t get there. The game encourages exploring while also limiting access very tastefully IMO. Even by doing something as limiting area access until you get the mantis claw or double jump
Oh yeah, for the record, I haven't fully done the Dark Souls thing yet, so the criticism isn't in the context of that game. It's just a trend I'm noticing in a lot in platformers and Metroidvanias (like Shovel Knight for example), and I really dislike it there.Fair enough, I liked it Dark Souls but it didn't add anything for me in other games I've seen it in.
When you lost a large amount of souls it fit the sense of despair the game was going for. Most of the game isn't really all that open anyways, it kind of gives the illusion of an open world. When you die you probably are going to want to go right back again.
I've had Hollow Knight installed for months now but haven't tried it yet. It appears to have more of an open world than Dark Souls, if so I see how that mechanic could just be annoying there.
For the record, I don't have a perfect memory of all of these areas, so there may be some inaccuracy, and I'm also not saying it ever gets to a "point of no return" level of bad. There are just minor things that could be done more elegantly.Do you have any specific examples? Because I haven’t ran across any issues yet other than Lost Kin that fit your description of getting to an area before your skills and abilities catch up.
I think I may have mentioned this to you before, but I think that mechanically, the game gives a pretty poor first impression (even though the presentation can still win you over). As mentioned, it doesn't introduce you to everything you need to know as well as Super Metroid does, and it randomly withholds necessary essentials behind fetch quests and starts you off under-powered for a bit too long. For example, you start by being thrown into a labyrinth where you hopefully find the map guy as soon as possible, but the map is annoyingly useless until you travel all the way back to the entrance with enough money to buy a compass, but then you might realize you don't have enough money to update the map and have to travel back down to grind for a bit and come back another time. So a couple of hours go by and all you've done is go back and forth in order to sufficiently obtain something that should have just been given to you from the very beginning.Based on the responses here, I guess I need to give this game another shot. I made it about 1.5 hours into it and then lost interest. The art style was nice and the mechanics were tight, it just didn't do anything new or different and didn't do enough to get me hooked.
I think I may have mentioned this to you before, but I think that mechanically, the game gives a pretty poor first impression (even though the presentation can still win you over). As mentioned, it doesn't introduce you to everything you need to know as well as Super Metroid does, and it randomly withholds necessary essentials behind fetch quests and starts you off under-powered for a bit too long. For example, you start by being thrown into a labyrinth where you hopefully find the map guy as soon as possible, but the map is annoyingly useless until you travel all the way back to the entrance with enough money to buy a compass, but then you might realize you don't have enough money to update the map and have to travel back down to grind for a bit and come back another time. So a couple of hours go by and all you've done is go back and forth in order to sufficiently obtain something that should have just been given to you from the very beginning.
However, it gets better and better the further you go, and you eventually become in awe of how deep the rabbit hole of world-enriching content/lore gets and become addicted to the boss fights. I think the Mantis boss (after getting the wall jump) is when I started to really have a blast and love it for the actual gameplay.
I agree to a degree, which is why I hesitate to put it in my favorites with the other games that I usually never shut up about (I'd probably even put Hollow Knight behind that $3 mobile game that I praised in the Switch thread, Downwell). Those definitely feel much tighter, more flawless, and brilliant in their execution to me, but I would at least say that there is a temptation to forgive this one's initial weaknesses simply because it ends up having a more overwhelming quantity of positive material (and stronger artistic direction/storytelling sensibilities/peak satisfaction) than most other things.Thanks for the information. I do recall you already mentioning that, my bad.
I don't know if I can justify spending a few hours to get to the good stuff. I don't think a truly great game requires a few hours of grinding to enjoy properly. That's just my take, though, to each their own.
I agree to a degree, which is why I hesitate to put it in my favorites with the other games that I usually never shut up about (I'd probably even put Hollow Knight behind that $3 mobile game that I praised in the Switch thread, Downwell). Those definitely feel much tighter, more flawless, and brilliant in their execution to me, but I would at least say that there is a temptation to forgive this one's initial weaknesses simply because it ends up having a more overwhelming quantity of positive material (and stronger artistic direction/storytelling sensibilities/peak satisfaction) than most other things.
This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that Silksong will remedy that. There's so much potential if it just avoids those missteps.
I'll have to give Hollow Night another go then. I like having a Metroidvania type game to play every once in a while, last one a few months ago I finally got around to was Ori which was solid though I found the 'Metroidvania' type elements a little forced. With Hollow Night though I had picked it up and played maybe 30 minutes earlier in the year but nothing really clicked in and I got distracted by something else. Sounds like it has a lot of elements I'll like though.
I have this on PS4 but it didn't really grab me felt like a boring Metroidvania with flash graphics.
I'm sure it's great but I need to give it another try.
I actually kind of surprisingly relate to this (and rarely hear it said about this game). EVERYBODY gushes about the gorgeous visuals and yeah, it's hard to deny the talent and detail that goes into them-- they have grown on me as I've gotten into the game and I think they look beautiful now, but as someone who loves retro sprite art, I do oddly feel that most high resolution 2D things, regardless of detail, inevitably give me flat, flash art vibes for some reason (Cuphead might be the only instance that didn't). Seems to be a really tough thing to pull off in a way that feels professional, and that was my initial skeptical impression of Hollow Knight's highly praised art style as well.I have this on PS4 but it didn't really grab me felt like a boring Metroidvania with flash graphics.
I'm sure it's great but I need to give it another try.
Check out some YouTube videos of people gushing over it. I personally have never really played any Metroidvania games prior and I specifically hate Dark Souls, but I absolutely love this game.