Hollow Knight

[x Tame Impala]

For some reason I just became aware of this beauty a few months ago. Have put about 35 hours into it and absolutely love it. Who else has played it? What are your thoughts

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[Shareefruck]

It's "Hollow", btw.

It's an incredible game that I've recently become obsessed with as well, but it's not without its flaws, IMO. I think I'm at like 103 or 104%, with just the tougher boss-rush pantheons and some alternate endings left to go. Close to my absolute favorites but probably a notch down from them.

My unpopular opinion would be that its battle mechanics, challenging souls-esque boss fights, charm combinations, aesthetics/atmosphere, and writing/lore are all significantly greater strengths than its core Metroidvania traversal system and map design, which I found a bit inelegant and flawed (especially compared to its primary influence, Super Metroid, which I think does those things perfectly).

It has poor rest point/fast travel placement and too many no-brainer basic essentials that tediously require unlocking/purchasing. For example, you need to separately save up for an item to see the map, another item to indicate where you are on the map, and another item to update the map (but not in real time as you go through it-- only when you get to a rest point for some reason), and during that time, you could easily wander into an area and get lost before you even understand how the game works. I also don't understand the fascination that modern games have with death systems where you have to return to where you died or risk permanently losing your loot (seems like weirdly regressive design philosophy even compared to NES era thinking).

Its strengths completely overshadow these relatively minor issues, though. The bottomless well of content it has and the richness of the world is just insane. The boss rushes (including preparing charm combinations for them) are easily the most fun part of the game.

Optimistic that Silk Song could potentially be just as good while also fixing all of these imperfections.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Best Souls-like ever made, IMO.


(I should throw in the disclaimer that I'm not really a huge fan of the sub-genre and I haven't tried Sekiro)

 

[Beau Knows]

I also don't understand the fascination that modern games have with death systems where you have return to where you died or risk permanently losing your loot (seems like weirdly regressive design philosophy even compared to NES era thinking).

It adds tension by making losing your life a costly mistake. It also urges you to try to get further and further into each area by surpassing your last attempt as you see your remains getting closer and closer to the end each try.

In Dark Souls I find it fits the themes of the game quite well, in some of these other games it seems like it's in there just because it's expected in a "souls-like" game now. In Jedi Fallen Order that mechanic really doesn't fit imo.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I like the combat in this 1000x more than Dark Souls and Sekiro. You have to time your responses for sure but there’s also not a huge (intended) time delay between pressing “X” and actually swinging your sword.

I’m trying not to YouTube anything when I have a problem which makes it a much more authentic, fun, frustrating, immersive experience. I finally cracked though to see where that trollop of a Banker went with all my Geo and I’ve been stuck on Lost Kin for over an hour now. That guy is a real mother f***er

 

[robertmac43]

One of my favourite games of last decade, I'm pumped for 'Silk Song' to come out.

 

[x Tame Impala]

One of my favourite games of last decade, I'm pumped for 'Silk Song' to come out.

I’m only 1/3rd of the way done with Hollow Knight and I’m already super bummed out that Silk Knight won’t be on Xbox/Play Station

 

[robertmac43]

I’m only 1/3rd of the way done with Hollow Knight and I’m already super bummed out that Silk Knight won’t be on Xbox/Play Station

Ah well that is your fatal flaw; I have it on the Switch which I think is the best place for it. Perfect game for both docked mode and handheld mode!

Side not: I really hope Hollow Knight is in Smash someday. I think he would translate to a fighter character perfectly!

 

[Shareefruck]

It adds tension by making losing your life a costly mistake. It also urges you to try to get further and further into each area by surpassing your last attempt as you see your remains getting closer and closer to the end each try.

In Dark Souls I find it fits the themes of the game quite well, in some of these other games it seems like it's in there just because it's expected in a "souls-like" game now. In Jedi Fallen Order that mechanic really doesn't fit imo.

I get that that's the purpose, and I agree that I often like the story implications of it (Lore-wise it works for this game as well), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the actual game design.

As a mechanic, I find it more tedious and needlessly restrictive rather than actually adding anything worthwhile, personally. Particular in this type of game (where you have the option to tackle areas in any order and where the game isn't lacking in difficulty), I think it really hurts exploration in the sense that you might feel that the reason you died was because you weren't ready for an area, but end up having no choice but to repeatedly bang your head against that wall for no reason instead of allowing the death to be instructive about what your approach should be. It's often the case in Hollow Knight that certain charms and upgrades are a very good idea to have for certain boss fights, but instead, you're given an incentive to avoid adjusting your course in order to account for that. It also just seems like a very hollow, inelegant, and artificial way to raise the stakes to me-- The raw loss itself/having to start again should be enough and is a much more meaningful and natural form of a punishment/incentive, in my opinion. You can add any dumb obstacle/limitation to an experience (like bad controls for example) and argue that it adds to the tension.

 

[Beau Knows]

I’m only 1/3rd of the way done with Hollow Knight and I’m already super bummed out that Silk Knight won’t be on Xbox/Play Station

That's strange, it's even coming out on Mac and Linux.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I get that that's the purpose, and I agree that I often like the story implications of it (Lore-wise it works for this game as well), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the actual game design.

As a mechanic, I find it more tedious and needlessly restrictive rather than actually adding anything worthwhile, personally. Particular in this type of game (where you have the option to tackle areas in any order and where the game isn't lacking in difficulty), I think it really hurts exploration in the sense that you might feel that the reason you died was because you weren't ready for an area, but end up having no choice but to repeatedly bang your head against that wall for no reason instead of allowing the death to be instructive about what your approach should be. It also just seems like a very hollow, inelegant, and artificial way to raise the stakes to me-- The raw loss itself/having to start again should be enough and is a much more meaningful and natural form of a punishment/incentive, in my opinion. You can add any dumb obstacle/limitation to an experience (like bad controls for example) and argue that it adds to the tension.

Do you have any specific examples? Because I haven’t ran across any issues yet other than Lost Kin that fit your description of getting to an area before your skills and abilities catch up.

 

[Beau Knows]

I get that that's the purpose (and I agree that I usually like the story implications of it), but I disagree that it's a strong addition to the game design.

As a mechanic, I find it more tedious and needlessly restrictive rather than actually adding anything worthwhile, personally. I think it really hurts exploration in the sense that you might feel that the reason you died was because you weren't ready for an area, but end up having no choice but to repeatedly bang your head against that wall for no reason instead of allowing the death to be instructive. It also just seems like a very hollow, inelegant, and artificial way to raise the stakes to me-- The raw loss itself/having to start again should be enough and is a much more meaningful and natural form of a punishment, in my opinion. You can add any dumb obstacle/limitation to an experience (like bad controls for example) and argue that it adds to the tension.

Fair enough, I liked it Dark Souls but it didn't add anything for me in other games I've seen it in.

When you lost a large amount of souls it fit the sense of despair the game was going for. Most of the game isn't really all that open anyways, it kind of gives the illusion of an open world. When you die you probably are going to want to go right back again.

I've had Hollow Knight installed for months now but haven't tried it yet. It appears to have more of an open world than Dark Souls, if so I see how that mechanic could just be annoying there.

 

[Beau Knows]

Do you have any specific examples? Because I haven’t ran across any issues yet other than Lost Kin that fit your description of getting to an area before your skills and abilities catch up.

You can go to The Catacombs and New Londo Ruins right at the start, but the game tells you right away that you're in the wrong place by putting you up against enemies that can't be killed.

 

[x Tame Impala]

You can go to The Catacombs and New Londo Ruins right at the start, but the game tells you right away that you're in the wrong place by putting you up against enemies that can't be killed.

Technically you can but it’s a difficult area to get to. I’d bet 95% of first time play throughs don’t get there. The game encourages exploring while also limiting access very tastefully IMO. Even by doing something as limiting area access until you get the mantis claw or double jump

 

[Beau Knows]

Technically you can but it’s a difficult area to get to. I’d bet 95% of first time play throughs don’t get there. The game encourages exploring while also limiting access very tastefully IMO. Even by doing something as limiting area access until you get the mantis claw or double jump

Oh you're talking about Hollow Knight. Makes sense when you referenced "Lost Kin", because I couldn't recall that area in Dark Souls.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Based on the responses here, I guess I need to give this game another shot. I made it about 1.5 hours into it and then lost interest. The art style was nice and the mechanics were tight, it just didn't do anything new or different and didn't do enough to get me hooked.

 

[Shareefruck]

Fair enough, I liked it Dark Souls but it didn't add anything for me in other games I've seen it in.

When you lost a large amount of souls it fit the sense of despair the game was going for. Most of the game isn't really all that open anyways, it kind of gives the illusion of an open world. When you die you probably are going to want to go right back again.

I've had Hollow Knight installed for months now but haven't tried it yet. It appears to have more of an open world than Dark Souls, if so I see how that mechanic could just be annoying there.

Oh yeah, for the record, I haven't fully done the Dark Souls thing yet, so the criticism isn't in the context of that game. It's just a trend I'm noticing in a lot in platformers and Metroidvanias (like Shovel Knight for example), and I really dislike it there.

Hollow Knight is very open and the concern is very applicable to it. The game gives you a lot of freedom to get deep into danger areas that you ideally shouldn't stay in and that seem to be designed to let the difficulty hint that (often there is a much more manageable path than the one you're in, and you may actually be sequence-breaking). On top of that, as a Metroidvania, often times the area is a labyrinth that you may not even have a map for yet.

If you happen to die after traveling deep into one of these areas without obtaining the map for it, and realize your mistake upon dying, instead of being able to go "Well that was a mistake, lets try the easier path instead", you have to remember how to get back there without a map and get your spirit back. In some of these areas, they even trap you (and as a result your dead spirit) in a room full of tricky enemies (often giving you a rude awakening about how ready you are for this area) and you have to beat them in order to escape from the room. If you happen to die there, you can't even carefully and stealthily backtrack to where you died and then get the hell out of there-- Instead you have no choice but to beat that room. In other cases it's even an area that is covered in darkness/where you can't see where you're going because you need an item that you may not have to light it up (although in this case, that's more on you for being stupid enough to go deep into the area in the first place).

These are all nitpicks that you can work around, it's still a wonderful game that you should absolutely play, but it is a point of weakness, IMO.

Do you have any specific examples? Because I haven’t ran across any issues yet other than Lost Kin that fit your description of getting to an area before your skills and abilities catch up.

For the record, I don't have a perfect memory of all of these areas, so there may be some inaccuracy, and I'm also not saying it ever gets to a "point of no return" level of bad. There are just minor things that could be done more elegantly.

It depends on how much exploring you do. If you just follow the common sense straight path from directive to directive without wandering around too much, you'll most likely be fine for the most part, but just like in Super Metroid, there are many areas that you can sequence break that aren't obvious, but that you can stumble upon, and the death system doesn't complement these areas well.

For example, you can do City of Tears very very early on if you just happen to go out of your way back to that area-- Its enemies take a lot more hits and you don't have many upgrades at that point (I think there might be a tricky area that traps you with a barrage of enemies there as well).

Another more basic example early on (that you probably encountered to SOME degree) would be the Fog Canyon area. If I'm remembering correctly, you're SUPPOSED to follow Hornet through Greenpath, beat the boss fight, and obtain an upgrade (dash?). However, before you get there, you're given full access to Fog Canyon (however, a black barrier prevents you from accessing the map for Fog Canyon until way later on). The smart/natural thing to do is beat the Greenpath boss, obtain the dash, and then carefully but briefly step in and out of Fog Canyon to the next area that does have a map (was it the thorny area? I don't remember), but there is an opportunity to get lost deep into Fog Canyon (worst case scenario, maybe even get stuck in that dark area that you need a light for), die, and have to return there and wander around aimlessly to retrieve your guy instead of taking the smarter path after the game hinted it. It also doesn't help that the exploding homing Jellyfish can be very easy to accidentally die to. I agree that the game is very tasteful in the way it lets you access this area but encourages you (through danger and darkness) to get to the next area instead of staying here, but it's an example where the death system is a bit antithetical to this. If you're going to give people that freedom and encourage exploration/learning from mistakes, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to me to add unnecessary mechanics to more permanently and tediously punish those cases when it's time to try again.

Honestly, the very very beginning of the game is a bit like that as well. While there is a likely path that works well, before you even know there's a map guy or that you have to return to Dirtmouth to buy all the pins and compasses that make it usable, it's possible to take a wrong turn and wander around aimlessly in various areas, and if you die deep into one of these areas, it becomes a very frustrating start to the game (although I guess it isn't as big of an issue here because you won't have enough gold that permanently losing it is that big of a hit).

A more general, non-sequence breaking example would just be some of the tougher boss fights. Watcher Knights were the toughest normal boss in the game for me, but they're made a lot more manageable with certain nail/health upgrades and movement charms. Your spirit doesn't get trapped in that room, but you do have to backtrack to just before the room to get your spirit, when what you may want to do is decide to try another area and come back later.

There's also that optional maggot area. The entire boss fight just involves a stationary thing endlessly shooting flying maggots at you that you have to take out, while finding just enough of a window between them to damage the boss. If your nail is strong enough to take the maggots out in one or two hits, it's one of the easier boss fights in the game, but if it takes you 3+ hits to kill one maggot, it can feel hopeless trying to also find enough time to attack the boss (and all you can more or less do is endlessly fend off maggots until you die). If you die here, you aren't trapped in the area, but you do have to return to get your spirit (fending off the annoyingly aggressive maggots in this area) before most likely choosing to leave to another area and coming back when you have the nail upgrade.

Dying in the optional beehive area before you get a map really sucks too. You might not realize it's optional until you die, and instead of choosing not to do it yet, you have to go right back in and risk not only dying again, but permanently losing all your gold.

There a lot of examples of this, some better than others. Again, they're never impossible to do, (as you mentioned) the primary directed path tends to avoid them, and these are just nitpicks, but ideally you would want to allow the player's comfort and skill level guide where they want to go or not go, especially in such a challenging and open exploration-driven game. The poor placement of rest points and fast travel only compounds this issue (you'll often have to travel a relatively long distance just to get a rematch with a boss).

Pretty much all of these problem cases would turn into uncompromising, elegant, and tasteful strong points if dying just resulted in a blank slate and you could choose to either re-attempt what you failed at or go somewhere else (without setting you back by a lot), IMO.

 

[Shareefruck]

Based on the responses here, I guess I need to give this game another shot. I made it about 1.5 hours into it and then lost interest. The art style was nice and the mechanics were tight, it just didn't do anything new or different and didn't do enough to get me hooked.

I think I may have mentioned this to you before, but I think that mechanically, the game gives a pretty poor first impression (even though the presentation can still win you over). As mentioned, it doesn't introduce you to everything you need to know as well as Super Metroid does, and it randomly withholds necessary essentials behind fetch quests and starts you off under-powered for a bit too long. For example, you start by being thrown into a labyrinth where you hopefully find the map guy as soon as possible, but the map is annoyingly useless until you travel all the way back to the entrance with enough money to buy a compass, but then you might realize you don't have enough money to update the map and have to travel back down to grind for a bit and come back another time. So a couple of hours go by and all you've done is go back and forth in order to sufficiently obtain something that should have just been given to you from the very beginning.

However, it gets better and better the further you go, and you eventually become in awe of how deep the rabbit hole of world-enriching content/lore gets and become addicted to the boss fights. I think the Mantis boss (after getting the wall jump) is when I started to really have a blast and love it for the actual gameplay.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I think I may have mentioned this to you before, but I think that mechanically, the game gives a pretty poor first impression (even though the presentation can still win you over). As mentioned, it doesn't introduce you to everything you need to know as well as Super Metroid does, and it randomly withholds necessary essentials behind fetch quests and starts you off under-powered for a bit too long. For example, you start by being thrown into a labyrinth where you hopefully find the map guy as soon as possible, but the map is annoyingly useless until you travel all the way back to the entrance with enough money to buy a compass, but then you might realize you don't have enough money to update the map and have to travel back down to grind for a bit and come back another time. So a couple of hours go by and all you've done is go back and forth in order to sufficiently obtain something that should have just been given to you from the very beginning.

However, it gets better and better the further you go, and you eventually become in awe of how deep the rabbit hole of world-enriching content/lore gets and become addicted to the boss fights. I think the Mantis boss (after getting the wall jump) is when I started to really have a blast and love it for the actual gameplay.

Thanks for the information. I do recall you already mentioning that, my bad.

I don't know if I can justify spending a few hours to get to the good stuff. I don't think a truly great game requires a few hours of grinding to enjoy properly. That's just my take, though, to each their own.

 

[Shareefruck]

Thanks for the information. I do recall you already mentioning that, my bad.

I don't know if I can justify spending a few hours to get to the good stuff. I don't think a truly great game requires a few hours of grinding to enjoy properly. That's just my take, though, to each their own.

I agree to a degree, which is why I hesitate to put it in my favorites with the other games that I usually never shut up about (I'd probably even put Hollow Knight behind that $3 mobile game that I praised in the Switch thread, Downwell). Those definitely feel much tighter, more flawless, and brilliant in their execution to me, but I would at least say that there is a temptation to forgive this one's initial weaknesses simply because it ends up having a more overwhelming quantity of positive material (and stronger artistic direction/storytelling sensibilities/peak satisfaction) than most other things.

This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that Silksong will remedy that. There's so much potential if it just avoids those missteps.

 

[RandV]

I agree to a degree, which is why I hesitate to put it in my favorites with the other games that I usually never shut up about (I'd probably even put Hollow Knight behind that $3 mobile game that I praised in the Switch thread, Downwell). Those definitely feel much tighter, more flawless, and brilliant in their execution to me, but I would at least say that there is a temptation to forgive this one's initial weaknesses simply because it ends up having a more overwhelming quantity of positive material (and stronger artistic direction/storytelling sensibilities/peak satisfaction) than most other things.

This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that Silksong will remedy that. There's so much potential if it just avoids those missteps.

I'll have to give Hollow Night another go then. I like having a Metroidvania type game to play every once in a while, last one a few months ago I finally got around to was Ori which was solid though I found the 'Metroidvania' type elements a little forced. With Hollow Night though I had picked it up and played maybe 30 minutes earlier in the year but nothing really clicked in and I got distracted by something else. Sounds like it has a lot of elements I'll like though.

 

[aleshemsky83]

I have this on PS4 but it didn't really grab me felt like a boring Metroidvania with flash graphics.

I'm sure it's great but I need to give it another try.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I'll have to give Hollow Night another go then. I like having a Metroidvania type game to play every once in a while, last one a few months ago I finally got around to was Ori which was solid though I found the 'Metroidvania' type elements a little forced. With Hollow Night though I had picked it up and played maybe 30 minutes earlier in the year but nothing really clicked in and I got distracted by something else. Sounds like it has a lot of elements I'll like though.

I have this on PS4 but it didn't really grab me felt like a boring Metroidvania with flash graphics.

I'm sure it's great but I need to give it another try.

Check out some YouTube videos of people gushing over it. I personally have never really played any Metroidvania games prior and I specifically hate Dark Souls, but I absolutely love this game.

 

[Shareefruck]

I have this on PS4 but it didn't really grab me felt like a boring Metroidvania with flash graphics.

I'm sure it's great but I need to give it another try.

I actually kind of surprisingly relate to this (and rarely hear it said about this game). EVERYBODY gushes about the gorgeous visuals and yeah, it's hard to deny the talent and detail that goes into them-- they have grown on me as I've gotten into the game and I think they look beautiful now, but as someone who loves retro sprite art, I do oddly feel that most high resolution 2D things, regardless of detail, inevitably give me flat, flash art vibes for some reason (Cuphead might be the only instance that didn't). Seems to be a really tough thing to pull off in a way that feels professional, and that was my initial skeptical impression of Hollow Knight's highly praised art style as well.

The exaggerated version of what I initially didn't love about Hollow Knight's art style in my mind was that it kind of looked like this type of thing (which obviously is a lot more ugly and unappealing):


My videogame pipe-dream would be that I'd love to see the peak NeoGeo/Capcom 2D guys from decades ago go all out and tackle an actual modern high resolution 2D game, and give it the whole Cuphead treatment, without any shortcuts taken or 3D added in to ease the workload or any light/blur/gradient effects to make them look more "modern".

 

[RandV]

Check out some YouTube videos of people gushing over it. I personally have never really played any Metroidvania games prior and I specifically hate Dark Souls, but I absolutely love this game.

Don't need to watch any video's, always loved Metroid-type games (never played the Castlevania part). What I'm looking at in this thread that piqued my interest is that it gives the option to be open, is stingy with maps and you can get lost. I like that variety of challenge, which is usually lacking in these games like Ori and the Blind Forest which I played last.