Holland Really Screwed the Pooch

[Brick Top]

They had their shot. Management didn't think they did enough to maintain their spot. So be it. We've experienced no negative consequences out of these decisions except for the obnoxious few who look at other teams's superstar young players and unfairly compare them to our best talent and expect them to jump in and perform like said superstars.

They had their shot, OR (much more likely) that short of each guy averaging a hat trick per game, Detroit was going with the grizzled vet instead. Which has obviously led to some great playoff success the last few years, while not seeing how the kids could do against NHL competition.

You want the Wings to win now and in future, right? Then getting the kids some experience in place of plugs like Bert/Cleary/Sammy is a good idea- the best years for all of those guys is fading fast, and the kids need to improve at the NHL level to make the team better. As you like to point out in a completely non-obnoxious way, the Wings don't get the top 10 picks who are able to jump very quickly to the NHL.

I'm implying that Holland hasn't done anything that has caused us to fall flat off the face of the earth. We haven't taken a dive. None of his decisions has caused harm to the team. I'll withhold judgement until there is something worth judging him for. Not playing youngsters isn't worth criticizing him for.

Well, the Wings seem to be trending downward given the last few seasons. And the response to playoff failures was to keep plug vets like the 3 I mentioned above around instead of working in the guys the Wings need to rely on for the future.

Do you have a firm grasp of our top six situation? If Nyquist or Tatar were up, they would be on the bottom 6. Unfortunately, Cleary signed a contract way back when he was good and is under contract this year.

My grasp is that no Bert= a spot for someone. Or maybe Gus plays well enough in half a season or more that KH doesn't feel the need to bring in Brunner. And I already said that Tatar would be fine on a 3rd line.

Regarding Cleary- maybe you only pay attention to the Wings and therefore do not "have a firm grasp" of how roster changes can be made. He could have been packaged in a trade for some defensive depth or picks. Wouldn't have hurt the team one bit (would have been addition by subtraction on the ice without him) and opened up a spot for a better player.

 

[Frk It]

When you have good top end talent nowadays, you can't afford to pay plugs 1.5-3.75 million dollars, you just cannot. What successful GMs do now is insert home grown, cheap talent to plug the holes so that they can afford to pay 4-6 guys around 6 million dollars each. The difference between a guy like Kindl and Qunicey is not worth almost 3 million dollars. The difference between a guy like Matt Carle, although overpaid at 5.5m, and Quincey, to me is certainly worth 1.75million.

Really like the way you laid this out, puts everything into context very well. I completely agree.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Totally agree with Bob, but this is also old hat.

Do you have a firm grasp of our top six situation? If Nyquist or Tatar were up, they would be on the bottom 6. Unfortunately, Cleary signed a contract way back when he was good and is under contract this year.

Our situation is that we have less than six bona fide top sixers. There's no good reason not to try plugging in a top prospect there.

One, Quincey was a RFA, not a one year "patch". Holland was preparing for the loss of Lidstrom AND Stuart.

Quincey doesn't have the skill set to either be an all-situations #1 defenseman or a shutdown/PK guy, though, so how does he help replace either of their roles?

 

[PullHard]

Quincey doesn't have the skill set to either be an all-situations #1 defenseman or a shutdown/PK guy, though, so how does he help replace either of their roles?

He has Lidstrom's aggressiveness and Stuart's offensive flair

 

[Sadekuuro]

 

[Brick Top]

One, Quincey was a RFA, not a one year "patch". Holland was preparing for the loss of Lidstrom AND Stuart. Smith is fine and dandy but he can be brought up and sent down without risk. And Quincey is the better defenseman right now.

Q has certainly not been a 1 year patch- he's looking like a 2 1/2 year money drain given his performance so far. VERY debatable that Q is better than Smith now.

Holland needed to be more aggressive than blowing a 1st to bring back Q if he wanted to prepare for losing Lidstrom, too. I know he struck out on Suter, but it didn't make any sense to wait until Nick retired to look for a replacement- everyone knew he was taking it year by year and could retire at any point, so KH needed to make an aggressive trade or UFA signing PRIOR to the retirement. Because in looking at our D this year, waiting until Nick hung up his skates to try to replace him in the lineup didn't work out so well.

 

[DRWCountryClub]

Wasn't that line Hull - Datsyuk - Robitaille that year?

I'd agree with you if Holland would have said screw the Salary Cap he doesn't need to follow the rules and signed Crosby and Malkin so Nyquist could play their wing on the 3rd line


But since there's a salary cap, I'm afraid your point is moot.

Nice try.

Datsyuk played a lick over 13:30 where Hull played almost 19 minutes per game, 4th among forwards and only 5 seconds per game behind Shanny.

You can try and swing it any way you want, but Datsyuk played 3rd line minutes and wasn't a hulking beast like everyone seems to think a player needs to be in this league. Hull played almost 19 minutes a game, first line minutes. Sorry to disappoint.

Not to mention, if anything, this being a cap world that's even MORE reason to have a cheap skilled player play on the 3rd line, but hey, what do I know.

There's this guy named, umm.. Brunner something... Yeah, Damien Brunner, he's like 5'10 around 175-180 lbs. He plays on the first line of this team called the Detroit Red Wings(not sure if you've heard of them).

Then there's this skilled guy named Gustav Nyquist. He's got a lot of skill and has done well at every level he's ever played at. But he just can't crack the Red Wings. A lot of people say he's too small and too weak. I mean he is only 5'11 and 185lbs, I dhighly doubt there are any other skilled guys playing on this teams roster and having any sort of success.

There's no way he could play on the third line and have success though. Compared to Drew Miller, who's like, 175lbs, Nyquist is totally weaker than.

I mean, why, put Nyquist with a30 something year old sniper and a fast guy with bad hands? I don't think the Red Wings have ever had success with a line like that. Can YOU think of a good line that had a 30 something sniper, fast guy with no hands, and skilled rookie together?

Geez, I sure can't.

 

[HTT3*]

Quincey doesn't have the skill set to either be an all-situations #1 defenseman or a shutdown/PK guy, though, so how does he help replace either of their roles?

You're going to be extremely disappointed if you think anyone can "replace" Lidstrom. Sorry, bud... not a player in the world can replace him.

Q has certainly not been a 1 year patch- he's looking like a 2 1/2 year money drain given his performance so far. VERY debatable that Q is better than Smith now.

Holland needed to be more aggressive than blowing a 1st to bring back Q if he wanted to prepare for losing Lidstrom, too. I know he struck out on Suter, but it didn't make any sense to wait until Nick retired to look for a replacement- everyone knew he was taking it year by year and could retire at any point, so KH needed to make an aggressive trade or UFA signing PRIOR to the retirement. Because in looking at our D this year, waiting until Nick hung up his skates to try to replace him in the lineup didn't work out so well.

Quincey looked pretty damn good tonight. Did you watch the game? Before this game, Q was a +3 in his last two games. In comparison, Kronwall was a -3 in his last two games (prior to tonight).

This just proves people need a whipping boy even if they are directing it at the wrong player.

 

[HTT3*]

Nice try.

Datsyuk played a lick over 13:30 where Hull played almost 19 minutes per game, 4th among forwards and only 5 seconds per game behind Shanny.

You can try and swing it any way you want, but Datsyuk played 3rd line minutes and wasn't a hulking beast like everyone seems to think a player needs to be in this league. Hull played almost 19 minutes a game, first line minutes. Sorry to disappoint.

Not to mention, if anything, this being a cap world that's even MORE reason to have a cheap skilled player play on the 3rd line, but hey, what do I know.

There's this guy named, umm.. Brunner something... Yeah, Damien Brunner, he's like 5'10 around 175-180 lbs. He plays on the first line of this team called the Detroit Red Wings(not sure if you've heard of them).

Then there's this skilled guy named Gustav Nyquist. He's got a lot of skill and has done well at every level he's ever played at. But he just can't crack the Red Wings. A lot of people say he's too small and too weak. I mean he is only 5'11 and 185lbs, I dhighly doubt there are any other skilled guys playing on this teams roster and having any sort of success.

There's no way he could play on the third line and have success though. Compared to Drew Miller, who's like, 175lbs, Nyquist is totally weaker than.

I mean, why, put Nyquist with a30 something year old sniper and a fast guy with bad hands? I don't think the Red Wings have ever had success with a line like that. Can YOU think of a good line that had a 30 something sniper, fast guy with no hands, and skilled rookie together?

Geez, I sure can't.

Nyquist is more of a low scoring Hudler type player than a Datsyuk type player. He might top out as a top 6 tweener. He's not going to ever be on Filpulla, let alone Datsyuk's level of player. He'll top out at a better skating, lower scoring Hudler.

Comparing him to Datsyuk is like comparing Emmerton to Crosby.

 

[Sadekuuro]

You're going to be extremely disappointed if you think anyone can "replace" Lidstrom. Sorry, bud... not a player in the world can replace him.

That's not what I said. I didn't say anyone could directly replace Lidstrom, or even imply it. I talked about replacing (perhaps I should've said "filling") his role as a #1, all-situations defenseman. Also note that I said "help replace."

Since you didn't answer my question, I take it you can't.

 

[Brick Top]

Quincey looked pretty damn good tonight. Did you watch the game? Before this game, Q was a +3 in his last two games. In comparison, Kronwall was a -3 in his last two games (prior to tonight).

This just proves people need a whipping boy even if they are directing it at the wrong player.

Priceless that you use my post as proof about needing a whipping boy, after your one-man (or chick) assault on Smith earlier in the season. Are you over that yet?

For the season, Q has been worse than Kronwall. Thankfully, Quincey has played better the last 2 games. Now, he just needs to keep it up for the remainder of this season and play like a top 4 guy on a contender, which I don't think he is or can do.

Ftr, I'm not a Kronwall guy either. I don't think he's a #1 by any stretch, and IMO he's just not a very good defensive player. His poor play so far this season has been masked by Q's struggles, but now that he is playing better and Smith is improving, Kronwall's poor play in his own end will likely become more apparent.

 

[HTT3*]

That's not what I said. I didn't say anyone could directly replace Lidstrom, or even imply it. I talked about replacing (perhaps I should've said "filling") his role as a #1, all-situations defenseman. Also note that I said "help replace."

Since you didn't answer my question, I take it you can't.

You said "replace"

so how does he help replace either of their roles

Kronwall can't "help replace" Lidstrom either... so fire Holland for wasting a 1st round pick on him?

Pretty sure Babcock and Holland both said they plan on "defense by committee". Of course neither Kronwall, Quincey or Smith are #1 guys... nobody said they are.

And if you can score a legit #1 dman with a late first round draft pick, then you should be an NHL GM earning $14 trillion per year. LOL!!!!!1!!!

 

[ricky0034]

Nyquist is more of a low scoring Hudler type player than a Datsyuk type player. He might top out as a top 6 tweener. He's not going to ever be on Filpulla, let alone Datsyuk's level of player. He'll top out at a better skating, lower scoring Hudler.

Comparing him to Datsyuk is like comparing Emmerton to Crosby.

I think Nyquist tops out around the Filppula level in the NHL. Not sure he will be a calder candidate, but he will be a player people will remember.

Helm is arguably the best 3 line center in the entire league. He brings a winning element to each game he plays in. Wings win more with him in the lineup than they do without him. That speaks volumes to how valuable he is.

I think Wings would be better passing on this trade and maybe try to acquire someone less expensive.

so uh which is it?

source for the other quote,both of them are from TODAY:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58578047&postcount=29

 

[HTT3*]

Priceless that you use my post as proof about needing a whipping boy, after your one-man (or chick) assault on Smith earlier in the season. Are you over that yet?

For the season, Q has been worse than Kronwall. Thankfully, Quincey has played better the last 2 games. Now, he just needs to keep it up for the remainder of this season and play like a top 4 guy on a contender, which I don't think he is or can do.

Ftr, I'm not a Kronwall guy either. I don't think he's a #1 by any stretch, and IMO he's just not a very good defensive player. His poor play so far this season has been masked by Q's struggles, but now that he is playing better and Smith is improving, Kronwall's poor play in his own end will likely become more apparent.

Wings don't have a #1. I don't even consider Kronwall a #2 to my standards... but hey, atleast we are winning some games.

Kronwall get's paid $5 million and isn't consistent, how can you expect Quincey to be? Hell, nobody is "consistent" unless your Lidstrom.. and sadly, you will be disappointed if you think Quincey or anyone else can replace Lidstrom. Not gonna happen, my friend.

Suter isn't even consistent he and got like a $100 million. Lol Yet you expect Quincey to be? Face it, he's your official whipping boy, admit it.

 

[HTT3*]

so uh which is it?

source for the other quote,both of them are from TODAY:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58578047&postcount=29

I don't think Filppula is that special. Then tonight he scored two goals (thanks to Datsyuk). I figured he would get overrated now. That's why I said that. Had Flip not scored two goals, I would have said he was a Filppula because he can't score.

Filppula is a top 6 tweener.

 

[Brick Top]

Wings don't have a #1. I don't even consider Kronwall a #2 to my standards... but hey, atleast we are winning some games.

Kronwall get's paid $5 million and isn't consistent, how can you expect Quincey to be? Hell, nobody is "consistent" unless your Lidstrom.. and sadly, you will be disappointed if you think Quincey or anyone else can replace Lidstrom. Not gonna happen, my friend.

Suter isn't even consistent he and got like a $100 million. Lol Yet you expect Quincey to be? Face it, he's your official whipping boy, admit it.

The Wings are going D by committee, and for the most part, the committee isn't very good. I know that Kronwall isn't a consistent player, and Q isn't either. But you're saying that "nobody is consistent?" I can think of plenty of D-men around the league that are consistently good to great. Everybody gets beat on occasion, but it's not unrealistic to expect a more consistent performance out of guys like Q and Kronwall.

Nobody on the roster can fill Lidstrom's role, but that's not the fault of the players- that's on the GM. I will admit that I don't think Q is a very good defenseman, and he'll need to be consistently good against better teams than Dallas in the 2nd game of back-to-back's to change my opinion. He was a waste of a 1st rd pick, but since he's getting paid by the Wings, I hope he gets better. How's that, champ?

 

[ricky0034]

I don't think Filppula is that special. Then tonight he scored two goals (thanks to Datsyuk). I figured he would get overrated now. That's why I said that. Had Flip not scored two goals, I would have said he was a Filppula because he can't score.

Filppula is a top 6 tweener.

tweeners aren't 15th in the NHL in even strength scoring carrying their line for sizable chunks of the season

 

[Run the Jewels]

tweeners aren't 15th in the NHL in even strength scoring carrying their line for sizable chunks of the season

I think it would be pretty cool to put both Fil and Brunner on Datsyuk's line. Fil can score but he's also a pretty good setup guy. Z can skate with Mule and Bert.

 

[HTT3*]

Nobody on the roster can fill Lidstrom's role, but that's not the fault of the players- that's on the GM.

Not the GMs fault scientist can't clone human beings [clone Lidstrom], because nobody in the world can replace Lidstrom. I doubt the world will see such a player for another 150 years that can be the player Lidstrom was.

Again, you will be sorely depressed if you keep thinking this way. But okay, Huskins has been consistent. Maybe Holland should trade away the current top 5 dman for 5 more Huskins type guys. That should fix it. Lol

 

[HTT3*]

tweeners aren't 15th in the NHL in even strength scoring carrying their line for sizable chunks of the season

Bertuzzi carries the team every year for stretches, yet people want to replace him with either Tatar or Nyquist. It makes no sense.

 

[BinCookin]

Wasn't that line Hull - Datsyuk - Robitaille that year?

I'd agree with you if Holland would have said screw the Salary Cap he doesn't need to follow the rules and signed Crosby and Malkin so Nyquist could play their wing on the 3rd line


But since there's a salary cap, I'm afraid your point is moot.

It was "2 kids and an old goat line"

Hull-Datsyuk-Dandenault I believe, but it was definitely 2 kids.

but I like the thinking that we could have 3 scoring lines, and an energy line:

If all us fans have our way (and Nyquist/Tatar play well OR don't make the team, but we give them a chance)

Bert-Dat-Flip (The line is working well)
Mule-Z-Brunner (I liked this line too)
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar (Maybe Helm is not a good center here, so how about


Bert-Dat-Nyquist
Mule-Z-Brunner
Tatar-Flip-Sammy
Tootoo-Helm-Eaves

If Nyq works well with dats, or Tatar does well on a third line, or we find another skilled 3-line center etc etc.

My point is why cant we have 3 "small skilled forward lines"

To me the argument against this is: Oh they are too small, other people will SMASH them and injure them?
Well then why isn't our first line injured? Heck, everyone but Bert-Mule are pretty small and no one really pushes people around.

The same argument can be made that our 3rd line will be MASSIVELY more skilled than other team's third lines and we score all over the place (Remember when Hudler was the 3rd line center and had 57 pts that year). He did well partially because he was the 3rd line center up against other 3rd lines.

I would really prefer and "smaller more skilled" third line that just having a checking line.

That means we would need to trade off the entire 4th line as it exists today, but im ok with that

Anyway, why wouldn't this idea work?

 

[Brick Top]

Not the GMs fault scientist can't clone human beings [clone Lidstrom], because nobody in the world can replace Lidstrom. I doubt the world will see such a player for another 150 years that can be the player Lidstrom was.

Again, you will be sorely depressed if you keep thinking this way. But okay, Huskins has been consistent. Maybe Holland should trade away the current top 5 dman for 5 more Huskins type guys. That should fix it. Lol

Again, we are talking about replacing Lidstrom's ROLE as a #1 guy, not replacing him with another "top 3-5 D-men of all time" talent b/c that's not happening. And I didn't say that would/could happen. I'm saying that it's on the GM for not having a succession plan in place for when Lidstrom retired, other than throwing all the eggs in the Suter basket. Unless KH really thought/thinks that Kronwall is a suitable replacement, which seems crazy to me. No cloning necessary, just a more aggressive approach the previous few off-seasons. It'd be similar to an NFL team having a surefire all-time great QB who is taking it year to year, everyone knows he's going to retire, and then the GM waits until the retirement announcement to try to replace the guy.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Datsyuk started with:

Devereaux Datsyuk Dandenault (3D line)

Then formed the two kids and a goat line
Devereaux Datsyuk Hull... which was the third line, though it led the team in scoring in the second half.

 

[BinCookin]

I don't really care who is scoring 30-40 points as long as someone is scoring 30-40 points and we are making the playoffs.

I think JmanWingsFan's argument basically says, he knows the "plugs" can get 30-40 pts, but can Nyquist and Tatar.

But the reverse point is... isn't it more fun to SEE if Nyquist and Tatar can get 30-40 pts themselves? Then with the cap savings... we can afford a REAL star to add to the team

 

[CorbeauNoir]

I don't think everyone knows it Heaton. Or people wouldn't get so bent out of shape over the criticism.
The longer we plug the bottle on the rebuild, the nastier this will be.

See that's the thing, you keep saying 'we' as if HFBoards can probe Holland's brain and control him. You can't, I can't, nobody on HFBoards can. So what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

You keep saying the exact same **** over and over and over and over again and it's every bit as pointless and tedious to read as it was the first time. And sure enough, as much as you huff and puff and ball your little fists, it affects absolutely nothing. It's just sports, deal with it.