HOHHOF - Early Era - Round 2 thread

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Just wondering, is there any evidence that Sawchuk ever played while under the influence?

I don't honestly don't know.

But I do think it's well known that he was traded away from Detroit the first time because he was starting to have serious drinking problems. And coincidentally, Sawchuk never reached the same level of play again.

(But you're right in that the Benedict story sounds a lot worse).
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
should we be using the timing of a player's induction into the actual hall as evidence for or against a player? I thought this was a separate hall, independent of the HHOF. If we just repeat their mistakes (and not for honest reasons, but literally because that's what they did), then what would be the point of this?

This is OUR hall, not the institution's.

I agree and am voting for the 4 best players at every stage, or course the 4 best IMO but isn't that the point of the vote here?
 

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
I'm with you right up to Benedict.

Malone will get my vote here.

Canadiens1958's recollections and Benedict's induction year have put some real doubt in my mind about voting him in this soon.

i am not a voter in this project, but i don't think C1958 has much if any credibility on the subject of benedict.


already in this thread he was wrong about facts multiple times (even after being corrected):
ottawa did win consecutive cups. rule about goalies dropping to the ice was not in '20. westwick was not a goalie. denneny was not noted as a defensive F.

in the top 100 debate, C1958 argued much against benedict, often in misleading or factually untrue ways.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=676644&highlight=clint+benedict&page=3

for example, C1958 pointed out that benedict's GA were sometimes higher in the 2nd 1/2 of the season, without mentioning that his GA in the 2nd 1/2 were sometimes lower, or that the 2nd 1/2 of the season sometimes had more games.

and said that benedict did not adapt well to the forward passing in '30, which was a big change for goalies, and which was benedict's last season. C1958 did not mention that benedict was very old (37) or that it was his last season.

in a different part of the debate, C1958 said:
His overall record is somewhat pedestrian compared to his contemporaries.

At no time did he have the all-time NHL wins record for a goalie or any other significant records. He had a knack for getting hot during the playoffs and contributed to three Stanley Cup victories.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=20798327&highlight=clint+benedict#post20798327

every part of that was false.
benedict had records for wins, playoff wins, SO, playoff SO, GAA, cups. some of those records lasted for a very long time (benedict still held the record for SO in a single playoff until 2000, and for career playoff SO until sawchuk). he also had 4 rings, not 3, and obviously had the opposite of a pedestrian career.



C1958 has said benedict, who was 22 years old, played badly in the 1915 finals, citing only stats.
i decided to read game reports of the series again, and none i have read criticized benedict's play. they do say Ottawa was outplayed in all areas, which should mean also goaltending. i have not found anything negative about benedict, though.

march 24, 1915 Toronto Sunday World makes it clear how badly overmatched Ottawa was:
STANLEY CUP WILL STAY IN THE WEST
Vancouver Much Too Classy for the NHA Winners--Should Win the Three

The Stanley Cup will stay in the west. The Ottawa challengers failed miserably on Monday night in the 1st game at Vancouver. The game was played under the western 7 man style of play, but Ottawa were never in it after the 1st period. Vancouver were much too clever at everything and should beat the Senators at their own game tonight.
The cup remains with the team winning 3 of 5 games, and with the eastern rules prevailing tonight, Ottawa looks to have only an outside chance.
after a single game, they predicted (correctly) that ottawa would lose badly in 3.

end of that report says that vancouver "scored 2 goals that were hardly earned," but does not say what happened. could have been soft goals, own goals, strange deflections, etc.

march 25, 1915 saskatoon phoenix on game 2:
Eastern rules governed the play tonight and Vancouver proved superior in all departments. Ottawa started off strong and had a 2 goal lead at the end of the 1st period, but the coast champions came back strong and before the 2nd period ended had a lead by 6 to 3.
All through this period the Pacific champions had the Easterners beaten at their own game, and the result was never in doubt. 2 more scores in the final period gave Vancouver a commanding lead.
Ottawa roughed it up in the last 2 periods and Art Ross tried hard to get Fred Taylor but the latter was going strong until within 2 minutes of the finish when a stiff body check into the boards caught him and he was carried off the ice. The Ottawa players checked hard and were pulled up for rough work. Neighbor (sic), Taylor and MacKay starred for Vancouver the 1st period, but in the last 2 sessions the play centred on the Ottawa end and Benedict was lucky to keep the score down.
benedict kept the score down to 8-3.

march 27, 1915 saskatoon phoenix on game 3:
Ottawas for 20 minutes held their own and were even with Vancouver when the 1st period ended, but they were unable to maintain the pace set by the new cup holders and in the remaining periods were outplayed in all departments. Only Benedict's sensational work held the score down. The play was confined to the Ottawa end and the Senators had 4 men back on the defense trying to stop the rushes of the locals. Vancouver gave a wonderful display and the result was never in doubt.
ottawa lost that game 12-3.




i will say, though, that benedict's GAA and SO look better than they probably are. ottawa played a very defensive system, and i don't think there is any way to say with confidence who was the best goalie of the period.
 

Dangler99*

Guest
Just wondering, is there any evidence that Sawchuk ever played while under the influence?

Sawchuk was allegedly hammered or wickedly hung over when unexpectedly called upon to start game 4 of the '67 Final (injury to Bower). Leafs lost, Sawchuk was horrible and he knew it. It motivated him to redeem himself by winning the final two games.

Check "Open Ice", the Tim Horton bio.
 

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
i searched through many many newspapers and found some reports about the dispute between clint benedict and ottawa's management.


google news archive says this paper is 9-29-1924, page 22 of 24, but the top of the paper says 9-30-1924, page 10.
Morning Leader: 9-30-1924 said:
OTTAWA HOCKEY CLUB FIGHTS BENEDICT ACTION FOR $800; AVER GOALIE BROKE TRAINING

Ottawa, Sept. 29 -- The defence of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Limited, against the action started by Clinton Benedict, former goal minder of the Ottawa professional team has been filed with the clerk of the County Court and contains charges against the former hockey player. Mr. Benedict, some months ago, sued the club for $800 salary and remuneration, which he claimed he was entitled to under two contracts and which he had never been paid.

Officers of the club state they are determined to fight the claim and will allow the case to go to trial. The whole case is ready for the session of the County Court, which commences on October 7, and will likely be heard during that week. In its defence, the club counterclaims for $300 against Mr. Benedict.

In their filed defence, the owners of the Ottawa hockey club relate differences over salary and contracts, subsequent to the signing of the original contract for the 1923 season. Excerpts from the defence claims follow:

10. Because of the plaintiff's breaches of training rules, details of which are hereinafter contained, the defendant fined the plaintiff $300 and notified the plaintiff thereof.

12. The plaintiff was fined for persistent breaches in training rules, inasmuch as he persisted in indulging in intoxicants during the playing season and in direct contravention of rules established by the defendant, and after repeated warnings from the defendant's officers.

Alleged Breaches of Contract
13. The following are the particulars of such breaches:
(a) before the Toronto game on January 22, 1924, as the team was taking the train to play in Toronto, on January 23, 1924, plaintiff arrived in Toronto under the influence of beer of whiskey, according to his own statement at the time to one of his teammates, who assisted him to the berth, where however, one of the defendant's directors observed plaintiff and noticed that plaintiff appeared to be intoxicated.

(b) On the train to Toronto on February 13, 1924, Messrs. McDowell and Ahearn, directors of the defendant company, spoke seriously to plaintiff regarding his drinking habits and plaintiff broke down and promised faithfully to leave liquor alone.

(c) After the game of February 21, 1924, (on which day, Dr. Lorne Graham, the club's physician, described the plaintiff's nervous condition as being due to liquor) it was necessary to allow him to recuperate, and defendant company had to use an untrained substitute in a match at Hamilton, and consequently lost such game.

(d) On the afternoon of Saturday, February 23, 1924, the day of a Canadien-Ottawa game at Ottawa, Dr. Lorne Graham was called to attend plaintiff, who had suffered a nervous breakdown, which breakdown the said Dr. Graham ascribed to the excessive use of liquor.

(e) On March 21, 1924, the day of a very important game at Montreal, Quebec, he ordered beer up to his room at the Windsor Hotel and drank so much sometimes during the day that he was unable to play properly and the defendant's team were beaten 3-0, plaintiff actually scoring one of the goals on himself. On the said day, Thain McDowell, one of the director's of the defendant company, and T.P Gorman, the manager, spoke to Benedict and he admitted that he had been drinking and promised to refrain from the use of intoxicants.

On Night of Play-Off
(f) On night of Saturday, March 18 (probably a typo which should be should say 8), 1924, the night of the Ottawa-Canadien play-off game in Montreal, all the players, including the plaintiff, were told they must retire immediately after the match, as the team were playing the same team again on Monday, the second day thereafter in the last and deciding game. Plaintiff, however, alone disobeyed this order, and disappeared about 11pm the same evening. Several times between 11 o'clock and midnight, the plaintiff's wife, who was in room 1100 of the hotel the Windsor, telephoned defendant's manager and asked him to locate the plaintiff, who she said had refused to remain in his room. At about 2:30am on Sunday te plaintiff phoned to Messrs. Hitchman and Finnigan of the team and asked them to go over to the room he was in. Hitchman and Finnigan got up out of bed as the knew we were looking for the plaintiff and went down to the number of the room he had given them.

i think a couple of dates in that report are wrong. Ottawa lost 0-3 to Montreal on Feb 21, not March 21. season was finished before March 21. the final NHL game was March 11, not March 18. March 8 was a saturday, but march 18 was a tuesday, so it was probably a typo for march 8, which was the date of the 1st game of the NHL finals.



Ottawa Citizen: 10-8-1924 said:
CLINT BENEDICT ACCEPTED OFFER BY HOCKEY ASSN.
Action is Withdrawn From County Court List


The action brought by Clinton Benedict, former goaltender of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Ltd., and which had been set for trial--the sittings of the county court this week, has been settled out of court by Benedict, accepting $350 which had been paid into court by the club.
Settlement of the case was made when Mr. A.C. Craig, counsel for Mr. Benedict, went to Mr. Redmond(?) Quain, representing the hockey club, and notified him that Benedict was prepared to accept the amount of money that had been deposited in court and which represented the amount of Benedict's last pay check of $300, which instead of cashing he had returned to the officers of the club, and $50 on which there was some uncertainty.

Coincident with the settlement, it was announced that Benedict would be offered a contract at a nominal figure to play this year with the club in order to bind him to the club, but that Joe Ironstone of the Sudbury Wolves would be the regular net custodian of the Ottawa hockey team.


Following the settlement, the following statement was issued by Mr. T.F. Ahearn, president of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Ltd.:

At a late hour this evening Mr. Clinton Benedict withdrew his action against this club for $800, accepting the salary check refused by him last March 15(?) before this action started, which check was again formally paid into court some time ago, together with $50 which this club claims to have paid him in cash but for which the club has no receipt.

The fine of $300 imposed by the club still stands and the balance of the $800 claim is made up of a claim by Benedict which he now renounces.

This club was prepared to carry on with the case, disputing Benedict's claim to any amount except what the club has always been ready to pay and the additional $50. We had called as witnesses Eddie Gerard, Cy Denneny, Hitchman, Campbell, Dr. Lorne Graham and directors of the club.

Benedict has been tendered a contract to play this season at a nominal sum in order to bind him to the club, but our regular goaltender this season will not be Benedict but will be Joe Ironstone of the Sudbury Wolves.

It is only fair to this club to have it clear that this is not a compromise or friendly settlement of this case, but a withdrawal by Benedict just as we were prepared to go on with the case this afternoon.

This organization is glad that the details of this case did not have to be further gone into, but throughout we have courted the fullest publicity in connection with our relations with Benedict and all our other players. We have felt throughout that any reluctance on our part to fight our goalkeeper's claims might have been misconstrued.

- (signed) T.F. Ahearn, president of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Ltd.


edit:
Ottawa Citizen: 9-26-1924 said:
Former Ottawa Goaler Answers Questions Made by Hockey Club Management

Benedict Denies Any Misconduct Under Contract

Former Goaler of the Ottawas Files Statement in the County Court Refuting Allegations

No Right Impose Fine, He Declares

Asserts Club Never Suffered Loss Through Any Action of His

Clint Benedict, ex-goaler for the Ottawa hockey team, who is prosecuting in the county court a claim for $800 alleged to be unpaid salary, in a statement today filed with the clerk of the county court, denies any misconduct and states that at no time did he render himself in such physical condition as to be unable to carry out his contract with the club.
Mr. Benedict denies the right or jurisdiction of the club to impose any fine on him.
He states that the club never suffered any damages, as alleged, through action of his.
The statement in full follows.
In reply to the defendant's statement of defence, the plaintiff says that the terms and circumstances of his contract with the defendant were not as stated in the said statement of defence, but that under his said contract, the plaintiff was entitled to a salary of $2300; that he duly carried out all the terms of his said contract and was at no time in any way liable to the defendant for breaches of the said contract and never misconducted himself under or in respect of same; and the defendant has no right or jurisdiction to impose any fine on the plaintiff under his contract with the defendant; and the plaintiff is consequently entitled to payment of the unpaid balance of his salary, $800, with interest and costs of action.

The plaintiff by way of defence to the defendant's counterclaim denies that he rendered himself at any time to such physical condition as to be unable to properly carry out his contract with the defendant and says that he duly carried out his contract with the defendant and denies that the defendant suffered damages alleged, or any damage through fault of the plaintiff, and denies any other allegations contained in paragraph one.
this was at the top of the front page, just under the main headline about a big scandal involving the Home Bank, which collapsed in 1923.


Thursday, September 25, 1924 Ottawa Citizen devoted the headline on the front page to this story. they published the affidavit of Tommy Gorman, Ottawa's manager, which was quoted above in the Morning Leader.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,813
762
Helsinki, Finland
I think I've made up my mind on the 'fab four' (2 who didn't get in the 1st round, and 2 new ones), but I'm still reading the posts/arguments... not really feeling authoritative enough to participate in the discussion, though.

But I know my time will come! ...in 2345432 years
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
11,560
2,585
New Hampshire
Finally read the thread and voted.

Some good debate; sorry I didn't have much time to get involved in it. Look forward to doing so more in later rounds.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,353
Vote is in.

I consider myself quite well read on this era, and still, it amazes me how much some of the people in here have to contribute that I was unaware of. Lots of good stuff in this thread.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,798
16,540
A few guys haven't voted yet.
I'm doing some counting, and I have some work-related stuff to do tomorrow morning, which basically means that my part of the counting will be done quite late tomorrow.

So far, a few guys haven't voted (on top of my head, HO, EB and the guy formerly known as VI didn't vote), but there's, at this point, a decent vote total to proceed.

This said, the SB is just over, so no reason why there wouldn't be some other votes coming in until tomorrow.

AT THIS POINT, one player is getting in, but could be knocked out. Another could be getting in as well.
 
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andreydali19

They're relentless
Jun 19, 2006
1,933
0
Liv. of Mich.
A few guys haven't voted yet.
I'm doing some counting, and I have some work-related stuff to do tomorrow morning, which basically means that my part of the counting will be done quite late tomorrow.

So far, a few guys haven't voted (on top of my head, HO, EB and the guy formerly known as VI didn't vote), but there's, at this point, a decent vote total to proceed.

This said, the SB is just over, so no reason why there wouldn't be some other votes coming in until tomorrow.

AT THIS POINT, one player is getting in, but could be knocked out. Another could be getting in as well.

Just messing. Merely anxious to find out, entry or not.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,798
16,540
Just to mention than Don is done (yeah!) with his part of the vote counting. I'm basically done as well.

This said, I have some work-related issues to iron out tonight, which means I wont start the counting before 10PM.

If my sheet and Don's sheet are the same, I'll publish the results as soon as I'm completely done.

We received 27 votes so far. We managed to avoid the deadlock of having no inductees -- it was certainly a possibility after the first 16 votes, with so many guys between 65 and 80%.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,266
6,477
South Korea
I just read the email notice about the 2nd round. Voted. A reminder message before the due date would be nice for future rounds for when we get real busy.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,798
16,540
I just read the email notice about the 2nd round. Voted. A reminder message before the due date would be nice for future rounds for when we get real busy.

Noted.
Y'know, i forgot about that ATD thing... ;)

Voting ends now.
 

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