HOHHOF - Early Era - Round 2 thread

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by MXD, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    The second round for the Early Era HOHHOF begans now. Each voter will have 4 votes at his disposal, that he MUST cast, and the deadline will be Sunday, February 6th.
    If a player gets 80% of the total possible votes, he'll get induced in the HOHHOF. The votes are to be cast at

    [email protected]

    The eligible players can be found on this thread : http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=847482

    In round 1, the following players were inducted

    Rover/D Frederick "Cyclone" Taylor
    Rover/C Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde

    So PLEASE, no votes for Cyclone and Newsy :)

    Click on the link beside the player for additionnal info.

    This is the thread for Round 2 of the discussion. Feel free to advocate for the players that you deem worthy. Here is the result of Round 1

    http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30438600&postcount=1

    Here's a few "mandatory" rules :

    - At all time, and in every round you can cast a write-in vote. This said, if you cast a vote for a non-eligible player (ex.: Josef Malecek in this one) in any round, your vote will be voided.
    - Every guy getting a write-in vote will be added to the ballot for the whole Early Era Rounds.
    - The players will remain on the Early Era ballots until the end of the rounds, or until when they're inducted.
    - As of now, there will be TEN (10) rounds. That number MIGHT be "reviewed" for a few more rounds (not less).
    - The Early Era guys will be eligible for write-ins in the "Chronological" rounds. It's a bit useless to bother about write-in rules at this point (since this is basically an open ballot with 80+ names), but if a guy is written in, he'll remain on the ballot for the reminder of the Early Era Rounds.
    - When you send your E-Mail, use the following format for the title
    HOHHOF ROUND x (in this case, 2), "hfboards usename" ballot

    So, for me, it would look like : HOHHOF Round 2, MXD ballot.

    The idea is to make the job easier for us when we count the votes.

    - Keep it civil and polite.

    Here's a suggestion :

    - Try to vote for the more "deserving guys", the players you think are the really best in that crop. Example : I really think Hod Stuart is worthy of the HOHHOF, and I sorta like his personnal story. This said -- I recognize there are AT LEAST four more "worthy" guys than him at this point. In this said, I'll restrain from voting for Hod Stuart in the 1st round. The idea is to get is to not get stuck with a few players that we all think are worthy, but that we disagree on the order of their induction. (I can keep the Stuart example... for now)



    And a few others messages that aren't related to the Early Era voting rounds

    - Still looking for another trustee.
    - We need to start the "research" for the "Post-merger and Depression era" Keep in mind that the voting will start in 1940, with a 3 year "waiving" period (well, 3 seasons actually). So every player retiring in 1936-1937 or earlier will be eligible for the first round, and the other will be eligible in subsequent rounds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  2. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    In my opinion, these 3 players should be shoo-ins for this round:

    1) Russell Bowie. The best offensive player of the mixed amateur/pro era by a fair margin. We definitely have to be careful that our hall reflects the contributions of hockey's development era. Do I think Bowie was better than Joe Malone, one of several stars of hockey's "first great generation"? No. Do I think he's more "important" and worthy of enshrinement first? Yes.

    2) Frank Nighbor. Quite simply, the true superstar of the NHL's first dynasty. The best playmaker and best defensive player in the world at the same time.

    3) Clint Benedict. Best goaltender available by a wide margin. Hasek-like statistical dominance over his peers. Maintained his excellent play in the playoffs - a winner. No negatives associated with him, like there are with the best defenseman of the era (Cleghorn).

    Currently considering the following names for my 4th pick - Joe Malone, Sprague Cleghorn, Harvey Pulford, Frank McGee. Strongly considering Malone over Cleghorn, but I would like to see a case made for one of the pre-WW1 guys.
     
  3. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    At this point I'm voting Nighbor, Benedict, Cleghorn and finally Bowie or Malone.
    Would like to get the best goalie and defenseman in this round.
     
  4. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Does anyone have any theories as to why it took so long for Clint Benedict to be inducted into the HHOF? He didn't get in until 1965, which was long after most of the other stars from his era.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Good question! I had no idea it took him that long to get in.

    Let's look at the goalies who got in before him:

    1945: George Vezina, Charlie Gardiner (both died young)
    1947: none
    1950: none
    1952: none
    1958: Alex Connell, Hugh Lehman
    1959: none
    1960: none
    1961: George Hainsworth, Percy LeSueur

    The class of 1945 was largely players who died young. So there are really only 4 goalies who were enshrined in front of him. I have no idea why those 4 were picked ahead of Benedict.
     
  6. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I hear you there.

    My issue with enshrining nighbor, benedict, cleghorn, and malone next is that our first 6 inductees would all be from the post-WW1 period, and I don't know if I'm comfortable with that.
     
  7. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    There's a few more:

    1959: Tiny Thompson
    1962: Riley Hern, J.B. Hutton
    1964: Bill Durnan

    I don't want to derail the thread on this topic, but I was just looking up induction dates for players from this era and it struck me as odd that Benedict waited so long. I idn't know if there was an obvious explanation as to why.
     
  8. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    WOw, that was really awful scanning of the list by me. :laugh:

    That really is a lot of goalies to be inducted before Benedict.

    From Ottawa, Cy Denneny and George Boucher also waited a strange amount of time, but they still got in before Benedict.
     
  9. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    MXD, if you write Édouard ''Newsy'' Lalonde, you should also write Frederick ''Cyclone'' Taylor like that.

    ---

    Quite surprise McDougall received a vote. Not to say it's not a worthy one, but I would lik to know the process of thought behind it.

    ---

    Very interesting point on Benedict. It's quite amazing to see all those goaltenders AND teammate go into the HOF before him. Clueless as to why.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  10. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    I've read a few snippets that Benedict himself felt it was an example of how political the NHL could be.
    His negative connotation probably stems from his '24 season when be had an alchohol problem which led to his trade out of Ottawa; he was docked pay, then sued the club and was promptly counter-sued and all of it made it's way to the public.

    I'm sure he was viewed as giving a black eye to hockey.
     
  11. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    Very interesting, I never read on heard of those account on Benedict. Do you have a link where I could read more on that?
     
  12. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Clint Benedict

    Played on stacked Ottawa teams that never won two consecutive Stanley Cups.

    Viewed as the weak link. Lacked consistency.

    Perception started to change when The Trail of the Stanley Cup was published.
     
  13. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    His Wikipedia entry has some of it - taken from his biography.
    Not sure where I read Benedict viewed his late induction as political...
     
  14. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    That's some powerful words against Clint Benedict right there! Where have you read all that. It's interesting to say the least. Some posters in here have Clint Benedict in their top-5.
     
  15. nik jr

    nik jr Registered User

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    1920 and 1921

    i have never heard about any problem with alcohol, but i know doug harvey thought alcohol was the reason he was not inducted with howe and beliveau in '72.

    i will look for some information on this.


    edit:

    that wikipedia article, and another on the '24 NHL season cite a 6-23-2008 report by doug fischer in the ottawa citizen called "the trials and triumphs of clint benedict".

    i don't know if that was related to alcohol, or if it was related to his poor play in game 2 of the NHL finals.

    Benedict was criticized a lot for the '24 loss to Montreal. i read the games reports, and he allowed at least 2 soft goals in the 2nd game. Nighbor was also criticized for poor offensive play in the 2nd game. did not play poorly defensively, but did very little offensively after being hit in the face with a stick.
    Ottawa also generally played a poor game. they were often described as a machine, and noted for their strong team play, but that was missing in the 2nd game.


    there was quite a lot of speculation about trading some players. edmonton and ottawa nearly made a deal to trade nighbor for joe simpson. ottawa also wanted to get frank boucher, and boucher apparently wanted to play for ottawa, but ottawa and boucher's team vancouver did not agree on a trade.

    frank patrick said he agreed to trade frank boucher to toronto for babe dye, but boucher apparently did not accept the trade.

    Ironstone did not distinguish himself in preseason, so connell was signed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  16. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    Hummm... That sounds a bit like Flash Hollett, but with a guy that was a shoo-in for the HHOF.

    Benedict is one of my two automatic votes for this round -- the other being Dubbie Bowie.

    I'm a bit torn on the Nighbor issue. If I consider positions and era, I don't vote for him this round. On the other hand... Not voting for him now would sound like I disagree about the order in which he has to be voted in -- and not whether or not he has to be voted in (let's face it -- he has to be in). I want Nighbor in... And he will be in. As far as play level, and even fame are concerned, he probably deserves to go in this round.

    But somewhere, I think it would make more sense to get some players in before him. On the other hand, I don't want Nighbor's to "lose" a round either.

    I'll cast my vote as soon as possible (to make sure the results have no influence on my vote).
     
  17. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    The Hall of Fame Comittee has always had the advantage of collusion, so I hope we are all able to vote on the same page as well - so this does not stretch out into 20 rounds.
     
  18. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Benedict, Cleghorn and Nighbor have to make it as the three best players eligible. Bowie isn't necessarily the next-best, but he is the most signficant and we can't completely ignore pre-WW1, can we?
     
  19. finchster

    finchster Registered User

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    Dan Bain or Mike Grant should get a look this round, maybe not elected but I am thinking of putting one of these players on my ballot. The problem with judging these players is that there is very little statistical evidence to support their level of play compared to NHL era players. What is often over looked was their importance to hockey, and what their play meant instead of statistical analysis.

    Dan Bain was the star center of the Winnipeg Victoria’s Stanley cup winning team in 1896, the first team to win the cup outside of Montreal. This is often quoted in many biographies of Bain, but what is left out is the importance of this feat. While hockey in this era was popular across Canada, this flash point sprung wider interest in the sport in Western Canada. The game in Montreal was so important, Morris code was used to send back a live play by play for a group of fans in a downtown Winnipeg hotel. I think I read this was the first time a game had live play by play, but I am not 100% sure.

    Hockey would become more popular in Western Canada regardless of a Western Canadian team winning the Stanley Cup, but Bain’s importance to the team and to the popularization of hockey in Western Canada cannot be ignored and should count in the voting process.

    Mike Grant is another player whose importance is often over looked. Often quoted as being hockey’s first true superstar who put fans in the arena, his personal story is often overlooked. His family owned a blacksmith shop and Grant was a member of the working class. Many opposed Grant playing for the Montreal Victoria’s because of his social status. Anyone who knows anything about nineteenth century sports knows it was not an inclusive endeavor. Grant won many of the elites over with his play, only then did they accept a working class player on one of the elite teams of the time.

    Obviously working class players would have been accepted sooner rather than later, but again I think this is an important milestone that goes beyond statistics and play. The fact that these two players were among the first players to be elected to the HOF should illustrate how important these men were considered in 1945.*

    *(Bain was elected in 1945, Grant 1950, my mistake)

    My vote
    Russell Bowie,
    Frank Nighbor
    Clint Benedict/Dan Bain/Mike Grant
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  20. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    If Bowie is the best offensive player remaining, why is Joe Malone, a one-dimensional offensive player, better than him overall?
     
  21. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Right now, Id vote for:
    Frank Nighbor (best overall)
    Russell Bowie (best scorer)
    Sprague Cleghorn (best defenseman)
    Clint Benedict (best goalie)
     
  22. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Explanation or Theory

    Clint Benedict played on stacked Ottawa teams - defense inc. King Clancy, George Boucher, Lionel Hitchman, Eddie Gerard plus excellent defensive forwards - Frank Nighbor, Cy Dennenny, and scorers - Punch Broadbent amongst others.Given the stature that Boucher,Clancy, Nighbor and Dennenny have on this board then either they are significantly overrated - possible since Clancy was also part of Leaf teams that regularly lost SC finals or the goaltending - Benedict was the weak link.

    http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/benedcl01.html

    The Senators never won two consecutive SCs. Upthread reference to some weak games. Also Benedict"s 1915 performance against Vancouver was the worst in SC final history - 8.67 GAA for a starting or regular goalie.

    Charles Coleman in Vol. I of The Trail of the Stanley Cup does not go into great detail about the 1915 finals BUT ranks Benedict higher than others had ranked him up until that time. Benedict was 23 that year so he was older than goalies who won SCs

    The collusion position is not supported. This seems to be a popular fall back position amongst posters but ignores certain facts. The goaltenders elected in 1945 did not have strong supporting teammates throughout their career. Likewise those elected before Benedict. Nor was Clint Benedict the first Senator elected - far from.

    Anecdotal evidence. Listening to "old boys" or reading articles about hockey in the 1950's and 1960's, the only time Clint Benedict was mentioned was when Jacques Plante started wearing the mask. Usually Connell was mentioned as the best Ottawa goalie.
     
  23. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    Sounds like the original "How good is the goalie on the great team" argument.

    Plante, Dryden & Brodeur have all had their value evaluated, but I don't recall any of them ever being regarded as a weak link. I wasn't sure if I would vote for Benedict this round. This insight makes it easier for me to decide.

    Also, wondering about Hobey Baker. From the little I've read it seems he was a spectacular skater who was worth the price of admission as well as the prototype for the Lady Byng Award.

    And speaking of the Lady Byng, was there any criteria at all for the original award?
    Frank Nighbor won it but had 16 PIM the first year of the award and 18 the next. His linemate, Cy Denneny, had 10 and 16 those 2 years. Perhaps the Lady herself had a little crush on Mr. Nighbor?
     
  24. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Lady Byng

    The link offers an explanation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Byng_Memorial_Trophy
     
  25. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    "Late in the season, Lady Byng invited Nighbor to Rideau Hall, showed him the trophy, and asked him if the NHL would accept it as an award for its most gentlemanly player. When Nighbor said he thought it would, Lady Byng, much to Nighbor's surprise, awarded him the trophy."[4][5]

    Much to Nighbor's surprise.

    Where is Paul Harvey with "the rest of the story"?
     

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