HOH Top Defensive Forwards of All Time List?

Trap Jesus

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Feb 13, 2012
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Not seeing this "lack of awareness" by Carbonneau that you claim is on that video highlight. He's doing exactly what he should be there. Boxing out Sandstrom from heading to the front, then trying to close off the middle after the box breaks down because both defensemen, particularly Desjardins, start chasing. He can't get his stick down to block the pass because it gets lifted by Schneider, his own player. Regardless, your basing judgement on a player from ONE play, where the greatest offensive player of all time makes a beautiful backhand saucer pass for the assist. It's a great play by the Great One.
I'm not going to doubt your religious viewing of Bergeron, and I'm not at all questioning how great a defensive forward he is, but are you seriously going to argue that Bergeron NEVER makes a mistake in defensive zone coverage? Well, OK.
He should never have been on top of Schneider to begin with, what purpose is he serving going to that space? There's definitely an aspect of him playing with blinders on there. And I'm not judging him on the play, I'm just commenting on going through all of Bergeron's shifts this year and not noting something like that and turning it on and seeing that immediately. Maybe it's just a random event that never happened again.

Bergeron makes mistakes with the puck and gets beat, and will whiff on things, but in terms of awareness he's as close to flawless as you're going to get. He has to be to be as effective as he is. His skating is really lacking compared to a lot of the best defensive players and his defensive stick is good, but not exactly elite. He definitely doesn't have Datsyuk or even Stone-like takeaway ability. When I watched Eriksson on the Bruins his defensive stick was better as well IMO. He's strong, but isn't going to be the absolute best in puck battles, especially compared to those bigger defensive forwards like Couturier. His effort level is unquestioned, but he doesn't always display it by non-stop hustle and moving his feet, he just always has his head on a swivel and a ridiculous sense of awareness to know where to be. He's the closest thing you'll get to a computer on skates with his play away from the puck.

This is a compilation we put together from this year. It's just a portion of what was collected overall.

 

Trap Jesus

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Feb 13, 2012
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Just a comment: I have seen both Carbonneau and Bergeron and IMO there's no doubt Carbo was a better defensive player. I would also rank him as a better playoff performer and a better leader. Bergeron managed to bring more offense to the table, but I'm not entirely sure whether it's because Bergeron was more talented or just a matter of circumstances and the role they were assigned. In reality Carbonneau seemed more naturally talented than Bergy.
Defense is already tough enough to rank, let's not bring leadership into it lol.
 

BenchBrawl

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Defense is already tough enough to rank, let's not bring leadership into it lol.

I've read/heard great things about Carbonneau's leadership from Ken Hitchcock and Jacques Demers. It's also very very obvious Carbo was a "take the bull by the horns" type of guy, moreso than 99% of players. I don't get that vibe from Bergeron.
 

Trap Jesus

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I've read/heard great things about Carbonneau's leadership from Ken Hitchcock and Jacques Demers. It's also very very obvious Carbo was a "take the bull by the horns" type of guy, moreso than 99% of players. I don't get that vibe from Bergeron.
Most guys that are on the leadership team have things said about them like that. Same with Bergeron. What do you mean by "take the bull by the horns"? Like leading by example?
 

BenchBrawl

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Most guys that are on the leadership team have things said about them like that. Same with Bergeron. What do you mean by "take the bull by the horns"? Like leading by example?

I mean, it's a vibe. It,s hard to describe. Even in youth hockey i knew guys that were like that. You see it immediately that their drive and will to win is higher than most, without saying the other guys don't have such things. As many things that are easy to see, it is very difficult to describe or prove. Carbo had that. Roy had that. Michael Jordan had that. It's Rocky's eye of the tiger.
 

Trap Jesus

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I mean, it's a vibe. It,s hard to describe. Even in youth hockey i knew guys that were like that. You see it immediately that their drive and will to win is higher than most, without saying the other guys don't have such things. As many things that are easy to see, it is very difficult to describe or prove. Carbo had that. Roy had that.
I mean you have to give me something more than that. Bergeron's had numerous huge moments in the playoffs. All his time on ice is pure effort. What else are you looking for?
 

BenchBrawl

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I mean you have to give me something more than that. Bergeron's had numerous huge moments in the playoffs. All his time on ice is pure effort. What else are you looking for?

I guess I just disagree with your evaluation of his playoff performances. Good yes, great no. Facing an elite talent in the playoffs (say Mario Lemieux or prime Jaromir Jagr) I take Carbo 10 times out of 10.
 

Trap Jesus

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I guess I just disagree with your evaluation of his playoff performances. Good yes, great no. Facing an elite talent in the playoffs (say Mario Lemieux or prime Jaromir Jagr) I take Carbo 10 times out of 10.
You don't think Bergeron has had any great playoff performances?
 

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Hey man, ranking historical players is one of the major activity we do in this section, and this has been going on since before my time, and as you can see I registered almost exactly 10 years ago. Do you see how silly your crusade is? Even if you're right, here you have a bunch of people who made it a hobby to research hockey history and rank historical players for over 10+ years, and you pop up in 2018 and tell them: "Hey guys, sorry but what you've been doing for 10+ years is wrong, stop doing it, we can't do that".

There always have been and there always will be differing views on how much sense historical rankings make. I don't think anyone is actually telling you to stop doing it just because they disagree with your view.
 

BenchBrawl

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There always have been and there always will be differing views on how much sense historical rankings make. I don't think anyone is actually telling you to stop doing it just because they disagree with your view.

Fair enough
 

Trap Jesus

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Feb 13, 2012
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I guess I just disagree with your evaluation of his playoff performances. Good yes, great no. Facing an elite talent in the playoffs (say Mario Lemieux or prime Jaromir Jagr) I take Carbo 10 times out of 10.
Carbonneau never played Lemieux or Jagr in the playoffs. He played Gretzky once in 1993 where he put up 7 points in 5 games, right in line with what his scoring average was that season.
 

JackSlater

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Carbonneau never played Lemieux or Jagr in the playoffs. He played Gretzky once in 1993 where he put up 7 points in 5 games, right in line with what his scoring average was that season.

While true, that obscures the truth a little. Gretzky scored four points in the first game, the only game that Carbonneau wasn't extensively used against him. Carbonneau demanding to be pitted against Gretzky is often viewed as a turning point in the series.
 

Trap Jesus

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While true, that obscures the truth a little. Gretzky scored four points in the first game, the only game that Carbonneau wasn't extensively used against him. Carbonneau demanding to be pitted against Gretzky is often viewed as a turning point in the series.
Was Carbonneau known for shadowing or being more cerebral? I came across this clip of Steve Kasper, and you'd never see something like this nowadays with defensive systems in place. You still get match-up centers, and Bergeron has been that for a huge part of his career, but it's never been a white-on-rice thing to a specific guy, it's just overall influence. 35 seconds into this clip:

 

Staniowski

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Carbonneau never played Lemieux or Jagr in the playoffs. He played Gretzky once in 1993 where he put up 7 points in 5 games, right in line with what his scoring average was that season.
Further to what JackSlater said, Gretzky was scoreless in 2 of the 4 games in which Carbonneau was playing against Gretzky, and scoreless at ES in 3 of the 4 games.

Of course, Carbonneau wasn't playing opposite Gretzky 100% of the time in those four games but most of the time. Muller and others also were some.

The strategy going into the series was for Muller's line to play against Gretzky. That's mostly what happened in Game 1. Carbonneau didn't think it was a good strategy.

Carbonneau was still a good player in '93, but he was past his best years. He was significantly better in their long playoff runs in '86 and '89.
 

Trap Jesus

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Feb 13, 2012
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"Top Defensive Forward" or "Top Two-Way Forward"?

If it's the latter, I would not put Gainey, Peca, or Carbonneau on it. If the former, I would not put Kurri and Trottier on it.
I think it should just be looked at as who the forward is that excels most at the defensive aspects of the game. Hockey doesn't have a big divide between offensive and defensive possession, it's really fluid. Just because a guy puts up a lot of points doesn't mean he can't be the best defensively.
 

joe dirte

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I think it should just be looked at as who the forward is that excels most at the defensive aspects of the game. Hockey doesn't have a big divide between offensive and defensive possession, it's really fluid. Just because a guy puts up a lot of points doesn't mean he can't be the best defensively.

But that's not how it's always been.
 

Trap Jesus

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Like when Bergeron held Crosby pointless in a 4 game ECF sweep?
And nowadays people will try to undermine that if he had a negative Corsi or more expected goals against Crosby. There's really no winning when you're comparing modern day to players of the past. There's just more of a romanticism about defensive play in the past IMO.
 

Trap Jesus

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But that's not how it's always been.
I'm talking vs. other sports like football or baseball. There's not a divide there like there is for hockey. Even basketball, the ball doesn't bounce around as randomly as a puck does, there are more distinct possessions that are more easily traked.
 
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joe dirte

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I'm talking vs. other sports like football or baseball. There's not a divide there like there is for hockey. Even basketball, the ball doesn't bounce around as randomly as a puck does, there are more distinct possessions that are more easily traked.

I see what you're saying. And yes, that's true.

What I was trying to say is that while players were on the ice for both, they primarily had one role, one or the other, on the ice. If you go back far enough, nobody cared about how many points a dman scored at all.

And then, things changed, and you had dmen that also scored. Then there was still more of a division between dmen who scored and dmen who only defended. Now, everyone looks at what they do in both aspects.

Same goes for forwards. Nobody cared how much forwards broke up plays in the defensive end when you go back far enough. That was a dman's job.
 
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Staniowski

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Further to what JackSlater said, Gretzky was scoreless in 2 of the 4 games in which Carbonneau was playing against Gretzky, and scoreless at ES in 3 of the 4 games.

Of course, Carbonneau wasn't playing opposite Gretzky 100% of the time in those four games but most of the time. Muller and others also were some.

The strategy going into the series was for Muller's line to play against Gretzky. That's mostly what happened in Game 1. Carbonneau didn't think it was a good strategy.

Carbonneau was still a good player in '93, but he was past his best years. He was significantly better in their long playoff runs in '86 and '89.
I should add that both Carbonneau and Gretzky were past their best years in the '93 playoffs.

Carbonneau was 33, and Gretzky 32.
 

JackSlater

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Was Carbonneau known for shadowing or being more cerebral? I came across this clip of Steve Kasper, and you'd never see something like this nowadays with defensive systems in place. You still get match-up centers, and Bergeron has been that for a huge part of his career, but it's never been a white-on-rice thing to a specific guy, it's just overall influence. 35 seconds into this clip:



I'd say both in Carbonneau's case. Against Gretzky thing along the lines of Zetterberg vs Crosby from 2008 and 2009. Against Gretzky you were not going to outwit him so you pretty much needed to be all over him.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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I mean, it's a vibe. It,s hard to describe. Even in youth hockey i knew guys that were like that. You see it immediately that their drive and will to win is higher than most, without saying the other guys don't have such things. As many things that are easy to see, it is very difficult to describe or prove. Carbo had that. Roy had that. Michael Jordan had that. It's Rocky's eye of the tiger.

I get what you mean.

But I never saw it in Carbo.

What I did see often was diving and taunting players into cheap penalties, if that's what you call part of leadership.

As for defensive play, he right on the same level as Bergeron.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Was Carbonneau known for shadowing or being more cerebral? I came across this clip of Steve Kasper, and you'd never see something like this nowadays with defensive systems in place. You still get match-up centers, and Bergeron has been that for a huge part of his career, but it's never been a white-on-rice thing to a specific guy, it's just overall influence. 35 seconds into this clip:



Bobby Hull was the first player I recall being shadowed. Eddie Westfall was the shadow for the Bruins.

Also recall seeing Mario being shadowed by the Whalers. May have been Doug Jarvis.
 

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