HOH Top Defensive Forwards of All Time List?

[rmartin65]

Any interest in such a project?

Click to read more...

 

[Trap Jesus]

I'd love to see this but don't have the appropriate knowledge past the late 90s.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'll throw my all-defensive forward team out there.

Gainey - Fedorov - Lehtinen
Dave Poulin - Datsyuk - Claude Provost
Madden - Gilmour - Jack Walker (The inventor of the poke check)
Craig Ramsay - Peca - Marty Pavelich
Kesler

Yes. I'm aware that Bergeron isn't on this list.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I think the argument that has been raised against it was that it'd require a lot more video analysis as this is a much more nuanced aspect of the game than most other things.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I'll throw my all-defensive forward team out there.

Gainey - Fedorov - Lehtinen
Dave Poulin - Datsyuk - Claude Provost
Madden - Gilmour - Jack Walker (The inventor of the poke check)
Craig Ramsay - Peca - Marty Pavelich
Kesler

Yes. I'm aware that Bergeron isn't on this list.

Why don't you have him on? You have a contemporary forward there with Kesler.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Why don't you have him on? You have a contemporary forward there with Kesler.

Because in over 30 years of watching NHL hockey I think that Bergeron has 3 more Selke wins than he deserves just on reputation. I think he's a damn good player but top defensive forward? Top 10, for sure. Top 5 in some seasons. The best ever? Not in my opinion. There was only one season I thought he was legitimately the best defensive forward in the league (2012) but the 14/15/17 wins I thought there were better out there.

Also, I don't believe Toews won the Selke in the correct year. 2013 I would easily rank Zetterberg ahead of him, but Toews deserved the win in 2015.
Mikko Koivu is another guy that should have won one of Bergeron's selke trophies. In 2017 he was phenomenal defensively.

 

[MXD]

I'll throw my all-defensive forward team out there.

Gainey - Fedorov - Lehtinen
Dave Poulin - Datsyuk - Claude Provost
Madden - Gilmour - Jack Walker (The inventor of the poke check)
Craig Ramsay - Peca - Marty Pavelich
Kesler

Yes. I'm aware that Bergeron isn't on this list.

One would think any such team would start with Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke and Guy Carbonneau being absolute locks at center position.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

One would think any such team would start with Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke and Guy Carbonneau being absolute locks at center position.

They would make my all-time all defensive forward 2nd team.

 

[Michael Farkas]

0% chance that Datsyuk was a better defensive player than Bergeron. Datsyuk had "flash" defense because of his puckjacking ability in the neutral zone and that has value and wooed a lot of folks...but in terms of complete defense, all the way through all three zones, Bergeron is ahead by a considerable margin...under that same criteria, Datsyuk was probably not the best on his own team even...

 

[rmartin65]

I'll throw my all-defensive forward team out there.

Gainey - Fedorov - Lehtinen
Dave Poulin - Datsyuk - Claude Provost
Madden - Gilmour - Jack Walker (The inventor of the poke check)
Craig Ramsay - Peca - Marty Pavelich
Kesler

Yes. I'm aware that Bergeron isn't on this list.

This is an interesting idea- I'm going to have to take some time. There are just so many top tier centers- all the guys on your list are good, but Nighbour should be on there. Hooley Smith, too (though he could fit at RW). Bergeron. Carbonneau. Kopitar. The list goes on.

I think the argument that has been raised against it was that it'd require a lot more video analysis as this is a much more nuanced aspect of the game than most other things.

That is a concern. As is the overvaluing of contemporary players due to recency bias (though this board actually tends to lean the other way, I think) and the growth of fancy stats. Still, I can't help but think this would be an interesting project.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Because in over 30 years of watching NHL hockey I think that Bergeron has 3 more Selke wins than he deserves just on reputation. I think he's a damn good player but top defensive forward? Top 10, for sure. Top 5 in some seasons. The best ever? Not in my opinion. There was only one season I thought he was legitimately the best defensive forward in the league (2012) but the 14/15/17 wins I thought there were better out there.

Also, I don't believe Toews won the Selke in the correct year. 2013 I would easily rank Zetterberg ahead of him, but Toews deserved the win in 2015.
Mikko Koivu is another guy that should have won one of Bergeron's selke trophies. In 2017 he was phenomenal defensively.

What was it about 2012 that made him deserving but not the other years? What are you judging it on? He's essentially been the same defensive player for the past 11 seasons now. Like what ranking would you have had him at in other years, and why would a player like Kesler get ranked ahead?

Judging by the other players on your team, Selkes play a role so I'm curiously which other Selkes you disagree with if there are so many Bergeron wins you think aren't deserved.

I also think it's worth noting how long Bergeron has been at this level defensively. And he's doing it in an era where defensive play gets put under the microscope more than ever with access to different numbers and metrics and video footage. It's also a 30/31 team league. Like if you think he was the 2nd best in a certain year, does that mean nothing for evaluation?

 

[JackSlater]

0% chance that Datsyuk was a better defensive player than Bergeron. Datsyuk had "flash" defense because of his puckjacking ability in the neutral zone and that has value and wooed a lot of folks...but in terms of complete defense, all the way through all three zones, Bergeron is ahead by a considerable margin...under that same criteria, Datsyuk was probably not the best on his own team even...

Very true, and a good example of why trying to compare players defensively without getting a lot of sight on those players would be impractical.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, we just don't have or embrace the resources to really do this in a meaningful way. Defensive skills are harder to track than offensive skill, and we don't use enough video for the latter as it is. This one is a non-starter for me.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

What was it about 2012 that made him deserving but not the other years? What are you judging it on? He's essentially been the same defensive player for the past 11 seasons now. Like what ranking would you have had him at in other years, and why would a player like Kesler get ranked ahead?

Judging by the other players on your team, Selkes play a role so I'm curiously which other Selkes you disagree with if there are so many Bergeron wins you think aren't deserved.

I also think it's worth noting how long Bergeron has been at this level defensively. And he's doing it in an era where defensive play gets put under the microscope more than ever with access to different numbers and metrics and video footage. It's also a 30/31 team league. Like if you think he was the 2nd best in a certain year, does that mean nothing for evaluation?

Last year's valuation is just that - last year's valuation. Bergeron is consistently great which I do agree with, but I don't agree that he is top 5 every season. Like you state, there is more nuance to measuring defensive play than offensive play. My gripe about Bergeron's Selkes (and to some extent the Datsyuk string of selkes) is that it's the easy vote because of their reputation and looking at the team's overall success. I will go to my grave thinking that Datsyuk is one of the best defensive forwards of all time, but of the 3 selkes he won I still think he only deserved 2. (2009, 2010)

Regarding the 2012 win Bergeron was the best, of that I have no doubt. He was just always in the right place at the right time and won all his matchups. That Boston team is constructed very well defensively from top to bottom, though. He's got a lot of support around him on the ice due to the team being well constructed and well coached, so a lot of his success is because the team's overall talent around him as well. (Chara, Macavoy, Rask, etc.)

Other selke trophies I disagreed with since the 2005 lockout...

2006 - Brindamour over Mike Fisher was robbery. Brindamour was almost unbeatable in the faceoff circle but Fisher was a beast that year.
2007 - Brindamour over ANYBODY in the top 5 that year was wrong. Pahlsson was a machine that year for Anaheim. Even though he didn't have high offensive totals he should have been the winner that year.
2008 - Datsyuk over Zetterberg was the press picking flash over substance. Zetterberg was tenacious on the puck in all 3 zones and pulled the majority of the tough checking assignments. He wasn't a pickpocket like Datsyuk but was more of the traditional defensive shadow, and he was better defensively than Datsyuk that year. It was further highlighted in the 2008 finals when Zetterberg was matched up against Crosby.

I also believe that David Backes deserved some top 3 nods during his tenure with the Blues.

 

[BenchBrawl]

One would think any such team would start with Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke and Guy Carbonneau being absolute locks at center position.

The interesting question is who is the 4th center? Bergeron has a strong case.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Because in over 30 years of watching NHL hockey I think that Bergeron has 3 more Selke wins than he deserves just on reputation. I think he's a damn good player but top defensive forward? Top 10, for sure. Top 5 in some seasons. The best ever? Not in my opinion. There was only one season I thought he was legitimately the best defensive forward in the league (2012) but the 14/15/17 wins I thought there were better out there.

Also, I don't believe Toews won the Selke in the correct year. 2013 I would easily rank Zetterberg ahead of him, but Toews deserved the win in 2015.
Mikko Koivu is another guy that should have won one of Bergeron's selke trophies. In 2017 he was phenomenal defensively.

kesler didn’t win in the correct year either. he was still great of course but he would have been third on his own team in 2011.

 

[sr edler]

Winning it in the incorrect year is the whole point with reputation awards.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

kesler didn’t win in the correct year either. he was still great of course but he would have been third on his own team in 2011.

I really enjoyed watching the 2009-2013 canucks teams and loved to hate them. Kesler was really impressive during that stretch and I would personally only rank Malhotra as being close to him defensively.

 

[JianYang]

I'll throw my all-defensive forward team out there.

Gainey - Fedorov - Lehtinen
Dave Poulin - Datsyuk - Claude Provost
Madden - Gilmour - Jack Walker (The inventor of the poke check)
Craig Ramsay - Peca - Marty Pavelich
Kesler

Yes. I'm aware that Bergeron isn't on this list.

I think a team like this would have to include guy carbonneau

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I really enjoyed watching the 2009-2013 canucks teams and loved to hate them. Kesler was really impressive during that stretch and I would personally only rank Malhotra as being close to him defensively.

i just feel like he pulled the most weight in the two years before 2011, and should have won in 2010.

thought both manny and burrows did more in 2011. burrows always felt like he was doing a little more on the pk, even though he and kes usually did it together and played off each other in a way i think we’ll never see again. but that particular year, i remember burrows actually seeing more pk situations and kes being somewhat saved for the pp.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For me, I'm comfortable with a top tier of Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau, and Patrice Bergeron in any order.

But the problem with doing a list like this is how do you compare them to each other? How can you possible give an informed opinion as to whether Frank Nighbor or Bobby Clarke was better defensively?

Jack Walker and Pit Lepine are probably the next best early players after Nighbor; how can you possibly compare them to each other?

 

[tinyzombies]

Defensive specialist or someone who can score AND play defense - which you could argue is better?

 

[57special]

Gainey was the best I ever saw.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

For me, I'm comfortable with a top tier of Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clarke, Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau, and Patrice Bergeron in any order.

But the problem with doing a list like this is how do you compare them to each other? How can you possible give an informed opinion as to whether Frank Nighbor or Bobby Clarke was better defensively?

Jack Walker and Pit Lepine are probably the next best early players after Nighbor; how can you possibly compare them to each other?

Surprised no one mentioned Henri Richard or Dave Keon.

They were both on that top tier of defensive forwards.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Last year's valuation is just that - last year's valuation. Bergeron is consistently great which I do agree with, but I don't agree that he is top 5 every season. Like you state, there is more nuance to measuring defensive play than offensive play. My gripe about Bergeron's Selkes (and to some extent the Datsyuk string of selkes) is that it's the easy vote because of their reputation and looking at the team's overall success. I will go to my grave thinking that Datsyuk is one of the best defensive forwards of all time, but of the 3 selkes he won I still think he only deserved 2. (2009, 2010)

Regarding the 2012 win Bergeron was the best, of that I have no doubt. He was just always in the right place at the right time and won all his matchups. That Boston team is constructed very well defensively from top to bottom, though. He's got a lot of support around him on the ice due to the team being well constructed and well coached, so a lot of his success is because the team's overall talent around him as well. (Chara, Macavoy, Rask, etc.)

Other selke trophies I disagreed with since the 2005 lockout...

2006 - Brindamour over Mike Fisher was robbery. Brindamour was almost unbeatable in the faceoff circle but Fisher was a beast that year.
2007 - Brindamour over ANYBODY in the top 5 that year was wrong. Pahlsson was a machine that year for Anaheim. Even though he didn't have high offensive totals he should have been the winner that year.
2008 - Datsyuk over Zetterberg was the press picking flash over substance. Zetterberg was tenacious on the puck in all 3 zones and pulled the majority of the tough checking assignments. He wasn't a pickpocket like Datsyuk but was more of the traditional defensive shadow, and he was better defensively than Datsyuk that year. It was further highlighted in the 2008 finals when Zetterberg was matched up against Crosby.

I also believe that David Backes deserved some top 3 nods during his tenure with the Blues.

Just wondering how you come to this conclusion about Bergeron? Have you studied game film from full seasons of Bergeron and all the other top defensive forwards?

Could you list five other forwards in any given year that were better than Bergeron?