HOH Top Centers - Round 2 Voting Results

[Dennis Bonvie]

Assuming there is consistency within the votes, they were likely the same three who had Forsberg 9th in Vote 4. The issue with longevity is undoubtedly more severe in Crosby - even if he may remedy it in the future.




Certainly one that I strongly disagree with, but if one were to place a high premium on playoff performance, it is a vote that can be explained and defended. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Marcel Dionne the only player eligible for vote to not lead the playoffs in scoring at least once?

Considering he was never on a team that got past the 2nd round, how relevant is that?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voting

Would be worthwhile listing who is not voting as four submitting lists, being accepted, then not voting has a greater impact than discussing who voted a player third or fifth.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not too unexpected...I had Dionne on the other side of that Forsberg/Crosby/Kennedy contingent basically...I'm also one of the voters that buoyed Kennedy to that level...

Yeah, likewise. I had Dionne 6th behind though three - actually thought long and hard about whether to have him 6th or 7th. Apparently it would have made a difference.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Considering he was never on a team that got past the 2nd round, how relevant is that?

First sentence of paragraph: "if one were to place a high premium on playoff performance".

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't believe it's in our procedural manual, so to speak, but am I the only one that doesn't like the look of a tie on the list? Dionne and Forsberg tied for 1st and 2nd place votes, but Dionne had more 3rd place votes and was on the "in" lists more than Forsberg. I, for one, would be fine if Dionne was 19th and Forsberg was 20th (and I voted opposite of this, for the record). Provided there'd be no reason for a run-off talley.

Just throwing it out there, even if it's just for aesthetics...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't believe it's in our procedural manual, so to speak, but am I the only one that doesn't like the look of a tie on the list? Dionne and Forsberg tied for 1st and 2nd place votes, but Dionne had more 3rd place votes and was on the "in" lists more than Forsberg. I, for one, would be fine if Dionne was 19th and Forsberg was 20th (and I voted opposite of this, for the record). Provided there'd be no reason for a run-off talley.

Just throwing it out there, even if it's just for aesthetics...

It's been discussed at least twice before, and both times the conclusion was the same -we can't agree on a good tiebreaking procedure, so if after a lengthy discussion, two players are tied, we'll just call it a tie.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ties

It's been discussed at least twice before, and both times the conclusion was the same -we can't agree on a good tiebreaking procedure, so if after a lengthy discussion, two players are tied, we'll just call it a tie.

Ties should be looked at going forward after the center project is completed.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I don't believe it's in our procedural manual, so to speak, but am I the only one that doesn't like the look of a tie on the list? Dionne and Forsberg tied for 1st and 2nd place votes, but Dionne had more 3rd place votes and was on the "in" lists more than Forsberg. I, for one, would be fine if Dionne was 19th and Forsberg was 20th (and I voted opposite of this, for the record). Provided there'd be no reason for a run-off talley.

Just throwing it out there, even if it's just for aesthetics...

Yeah- that's one way of looking at it. I see your point.

Another way of getting there from here is to throw out the high-and-low for any tied players. (C.f.: procedure in some Olympic judging events.) Has the effect of isolating anomalous opinions and solidifying the median. And in this case, it would yield the same result as you seem to believe would have been proper, Mike.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The ideal tiebreak when not everyone has voted is to leave voting open a few extra hours, but we did that and received no extra votes.

I skimmed the rules discussion threads and it doesn't seem like we ever talked about tiebreaking procedures in length. I must have been remembering the lengthy PM conversations I had with overpass when Quackenbush and Howe ended up tied during the defensemen project

 

[tarheelhockey]

I would just leave a tie a tie. Any two players who are a margin-of-error's difference apart are effectively tied anyway.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I think the best tiebreaker is which player was ahead of the other player on more ballots.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think the best tiebreaker is which player was ahead of the other player on more ballots.

If we were going to use a tiebreaker, this would be my preferred option.

 

[seventieslord]

If we were going to use a tiebreaker, this would be my preferred option.

Mine too.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I think the best tiebreaker is which player was ahead of the other player on more ballots.

If we were going to use a tiebreaker, this would be my preferred option.

Mine too.

That's cool...

In effect, it doesn't discard anomalous opinions- but it has the effect of blunting them by giving them a maximum displacement value of '1.' In practical terms, it'll typically have the same effect as my suggestion.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 6 - Lists received from 19 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Ted Kennedy | 5 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 122
Sidney Crosby | 8 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 116
Joe Malone | 4 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 88
Max Bentley | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 59
Norm Ullman | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 7 | 58
Elmer Lach | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 53
Sergei Fedorov | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 8 | 47
Bill Cowley | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 45
Nels Stewart | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 37
Dave Keon | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 12 | 28
Peter Stastny | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 11 | 24
Sid Abel | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 15 | 7

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Pretty surprised how far Malone and Stewart were from each other. Regardless of where you ranked them overall, I thought a pretty good case was made that they were very similar.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pretty surprised how far Malone and Stewart were from each other. Regardless of where you ranked them overall, I thought a pretty good case was made that they were very similar.

Likewise. I really don't like seeing Joe Malone getting added to the list without anyone really making a case for him, and like you don't really see why he ranks so far ahead of Stewart.

 

[Sturminator]

Vote 6 - Lists received from 19 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Ted Kennedy | 5 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 122
Sidney Crosby | 8 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 116
Joe Malone | 4 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 88
Max Bentley | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 59
Norm Ullman | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 7 | 58
Elmer Lach | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 53
Sergei Fedorov | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 8 | 47
Bill Cowley | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 45
Nels Stewart | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 37
Dave Keon | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 12 | 28
Peter Stastny | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 11 | 24
Sid Abel | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 15 | 7

So, how are we going to handle these results? I see three possibilities:

1.) only put in the top three, as there is a big break after Joe Malone
2.) put in the top five, as four and five are seperated by an infintesimal margin.
3.) put in the top four.

To be honest, I think going with a strict 4|5 breakoff here is the worst of the three possible solutions, but that's just one man's opinion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So, how are we going to handle these results? I see three possibilities:

1.) only put in the top three, as there is a big break after Joe Malone
2.) put in the top five, as four and five are seperated by an infintesimal margin.
3.) put in the top four.

To be honest, I think going with a strict 4|5 breakoff here is the worst of the three possible solutions, but that's just one man's opinion.

This is officially a rule for round 2 voting:

If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds

I don't see how we put in the top 5. It's either top 3 (because of the break) or top 4.

 

[seventieslord]

Likewise. I really don't like seeing Joe Malone getting added to the list without anyone really making a case for him, and like you don't really see why he ranks so far ahead of Stewart.

Agree. I went into this round thinking it was time for Malone and not Stewart, but little separated them after more analysis.

Why did Bentley get such support? What did I miss here?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agree. I went into this round thinking it was time for Malone and not Stewart, but little separated them after more analysis.

Why did Bentley get such support? What did I miss here?

2nd best offensive record (behind Cowley) using the VsX standard. If you take away the 2 really bad war years from Cowley and Lach (years that Bentley missed), Bentley's offensive numbers are barely behind Cowley. Add in the fact that Bentley was less bad defensively than Cowley, and was also one of the better playoff performers available.

Not to mention that the defending Cup winner in a 6 team era traded an entire 5 man unit for Bentley and is widely considered to have won the trade easily.

I also think that Hap Day's Toronto team clearly hurt the regular season offensive numbers of its players. So add it all together, and Bentley is close in value to Cowley in the regular season, with more of a playoff record.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Let's hold off on starting this round until we figure out if Max Bentley will be available. We were planning on having 12 names available this round, but if Bentley still goes in, we have 13, which may be too many. So we might only add 2 new names in that case.

 

[seventieslord]

I would include Bentley here since there was a clear gap after number three last round.

 

[sr edler]

Why would Bentley be included in this round? He was voted in last round by the rules like everyone else so far.

 

[Sturminator]

I don't see how we put in the top 5. It's either top 3 (because of the break) or top 4.

There is at least a small 5|6 break, though really, putting in the top-3 this round is probably the best bet.