HOH Top 60 Wingers of All Time

[daver]

No. The only presumption is that it is somehow equitable to eliminate the playoffs from the debate.

Lafleur's prime/peak in the RS was concurrent with his prime / peak in the playoffs.

Ovechkin never managed the concurrent aspect.

Why is it important for RS and PO peaks/prime to be concurrent? Why not rank their best RSs and PO runs?

 

[Michael Farkas]

For the record - placing Lafleur over Ovechkin isn't one of those "objectively wrong" rankings like putting Bossy over Howe or something. There is certainly a good argument that Lafleur's prime + playoff resume puts him over Ovechkin. The only thing I object to is calling Ovi a "luxury compiler" (like that's a thing).

As far as going for 50 in the last game of the season? Who cares? It's a milestone - team wanted to get their C a milestone. It doesn't make him a selfish player, and I think critiquing Ovi for games 1 and 2 of the CBJ series (when he went on to win the Conn Smythe) is some backwards ass logic.

It was pre-determined that he was gonna win the Conn Smythe after game 1 of the series vs. CBJ? If so, good point. If not, him winning the Smythe is irrelevant to this part of the discussion. Though, as I expounded upon, that was very much covered in my post.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Last sentence is true. So what is the demerit for Richard hand passing a Cup winning goal away from a teammate with a tap-in chance shortly before Detroit wins the Cup instead?

You tell me...let's see it and let's talk about it.

 

[blogofmike]

You tell me...let's see it and let's talk about it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Last sentence is true. So what is the demerit for Richard hand passing a Cup winning goal away from a teammate with a tap-in chance shortly before Detroit wins the Cup instead?

What? Watch the video at 16:40:



#17 Talbot is not even close to a tap in, covered very well by #12.

 

[Sentinel]

Who are you talking about?

Guy Lafleur won three Art Rosses.

You're right, my bad. I misinterpreted the data. But my point stands: Ovechkin contributed to his team more than Lafleur in the regular season. That's not a slight towards Lafleur, but praise of Ovy.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Why is it important for RS and PO peaks/prime to be concurrent? Why not rank their best RSs and PO runs?

Shows that a player can continue his RS success thru the playoffs the same year. That the opposition does not adjust.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You're right, my bad. I misinterpreted the data. But my point stands: Ovechkin contributed to his team more than Lafleur in the regular season. That's not a slight towards Lafleur, but praise of Ovy.

And for this contribution that Ovi made there was a victory parade at the end of the RS season?

 

[Sentinel]

And for this contribution that Ovi made there was a victory parade at the end of the RS season?

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[blogofmike]

What? Watch the video at 16:40:



#17 Talbot is not even close to a tap in, covered very well by #12.

Not the year in question, but those Habs get the most glorious bounces.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

No one celebrates RS contributions. Not even Ovi who had a blast celebrating his SC championship contribution.

 

[bobholly39]

Head to head Lafleur vs Ovechkin.

Best Regular seasons:

1976-77 Lafleur vs 2007-2008 Ovechkin. Advantage Ovechkin
1977-78 Lafleur vs 2008-2009 Ovechkin. Draw
1975-76 Lafleur vs 2009-2010 Ovechkin. Draw
1978-79 Lafleur vs 2014-2015 Ovechkin - Advantage Lafleur
1974-75 Lafleur vs 2012-2013 Ovechkin - Draw
1979-80 Lafleur vs 2017-2018 Ovechkin - Draw

It's subjective of course - but i'd say 6 best years vs 6 best years are at a comparable level overall.

After that - Lafleur has approx 7-10 other regular seasons which are "average". Nothing else elite.
Ovechkin has 3 seasons that i'll call "average" - 2016-2017 , 2010-2011, and 2011-2012 (3 bad years for Ovi).

Ovechkin still has the following elite seasons left:

2005-2006 (Calder - one of the best rookie seasons ever)
2013-2014 - Rocket + 2nd AS
2015-2016 - Rocket + 2nd AS
2006-2007 (1st AS + 9th in hart)

For playoffs - I mean obviously Lafleur's resume is more attractive. He was the main offensive star on arguably the greatest team/dynasty ever. Despite that their offensive #s in playoffs aren't all that far apart:

Lafleur 128 games 58 goals 134 points
Ovechkin 121 games 61 goals 117 points.

Both are hovering near the PPG mark (Ovi slightly below, Lafleur slightly above). Lafleur in a higher scoring era however.

In terms of career achievements. Ovechkin has 7 Rockets and is putting himself in the race for greatest goal-scorer ever. Lafleur has nothing comparable.

I really think Ovechkin has comfortably surpassed Lafleur by now.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That is not my position at all. My position is that team PP effectiveness is better measured as a percentage given the uneven distribution of PPO.

But if you think the 86 Dead Wings were a better PP than the 86 Oilers, that's your business.

You can't win a series on a percentage or a ratio. So you can say a power play is "better" because the Oilers went 5 for 5 in a series (100%). But if the other team goes 6 for 20 (30%), the latter has a distinct and obvious advantage in winning games.

Efficiency percentage does not necessarily translate to winning. Seen in our old friend save pct. Playoff save pct. leader doesn't usually win anything but the playoff save pct. crown...that and a dollar gets you the Sunday paper...even when you remove one-round wonders for sample size concerns (meaning, the quickest I can eliminate you is rd 2) you get...

2.5 Cups/eliminated first chance you got 6 times

2018 Martin Jones (out in rd 2)
2017 Matt Murray (split time goalie, only played the last round and a half, but won Cup)
2016 Braden Holtby (out in rd 2)
2015 Braden Holtby (out in rd 2)
2014 Tuukka Rask (out in rd 2)
2013 Tuukka Rask (lost SCF)
2012 Jonathan Quick (Won)
2011 Tim Thomas (Won)
2010 Jaroslav Halak (out in rd 3)
2009 Jonas Hiller (out in rd 2)
2008 Marc-Andre Fleury (lost SCF)
2007 Roberto Luongo (out in rd 2)
2006 Ilya Bryzgalov(out in rd 3)

 

[Canadiens1958]

Save time and post the video instead of being vague about the Richard and year.

Difference is that Ovi was planned while each Richard was spontaneous, a continuation of the flow of the game.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Head to head Lafleur vs Ovechkin.

Best Regular seasons:

1976-77 Lafleur vs 2007-2008 Ovechkin. Advantage Ovechkin
1977-78 Lafleur vs 2008-2009 Ovechkin. Draw
1975-76 Lafleur vs 2009-2010 Ovechkin. Draw
1978-79 Lafleur vs 2014-2015 Ovechkin - Advantage Lafleur
1974-75 Lafleur vs 2012-2013 Ovechkin - Draw
1979-80 Lafleur vs 2017-2018 Ovechkin - Draw

It's subjective of course - but i'd say 6 best years vs 6 best years are at a comparable level overall.

After that - Lafleur has approx 7-10 other regular seasons which are "average". Nothing else elite.
Ovechkin has 3 seasons that i'll call "average" - 2016-2017 , 2010-2011, and 2011-2012 (3 bad years for Ovi).

Ovechkin still has the following elite seasons left:

2005-2006 (Calder - one of the best rookie seasons ever)
2013-2014 - Rocket + 2nd AS
2015-2016 - Rocket + 2nd AS
2006-2007 (1st AS + 9th in hart)

For playoffs - I mean obviously Lafleur's resume is more attractive. He was the main offensive star on arguably the greatest team/dynasty ever. Despite that their offensive #s in playoffs aren't all that far apart:

Lafleur 128 games 58 goals 134 points
Ovechkin 121 games 61 goals 117 points.

Both are hovering near the PPG mark (Ovi slightly below, Lafleur slightly above). Lafleur in a higher scoring era however.

In terms of career achievements. Ovechkin has 7 Rockets and is putting himself in the race for greatest goal-scorer ever. Lafleur has nothing comparable.

I really think Ovechkin has comfortably surpassed Lafleur by now.

So now we manipulate the chronological order of seasons to the desired conclusion.

Bottom line is that Ovi does not have six consecutive RS/PO runs that match Lafleur's six season run.

 

[bobholly39]

So now we manipulate the chronological order of seasons to the desired conclusion.

Bottom line is that Ovi does not have six consecutive RS/PO runs that match Lafleur's six season run.

Yes because everyone knows that chronologicality is the most important criteria in hockey....?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yes because everyone knows that chronologicality is the most important criteria in hockey....?

I gave up on arguing with him when he brought up this fun meaningless trivia a couple pages ago to degrade OV

"Also in the O6 era no player managed to score 50 and play on an SC winner the same season."

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes because everyone knows that chronologicality is the most important criteria in hockey....?

No, people know that you do not play fast and loose with the in which things happened.

Scoring three goals over two games but in less than sixty minutes of game time is not a Hat Trick.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I gave up on arguing with him when he brought up this fun meaningless trivia a couple pages ago to degrade OV

"Also in the O6 era no player managed to score 50 and play on an SC winner the same season."

Missing the obvious that this would apply to Maurice Richard, Bernie Geoffrion and Bobby Hull as well.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Missing the obvious that this would apply to Maurice Richard, Bernie Geoffrion and Bobby Hull as well.

I'm not missing the obvious

It's still pointless trivia, there is no reason to believe that them not scoring 50 goals in any way shape or form impacted their playoff chances.

 

[bobholly39]

No, people know that you do not play fast and loose with the in which things happened.

Scoring three goals over two games but in less than sixty minutes of game time is not a Hat Trick.

Agreed. And shutting out an opponent over 2 games but for 60 consecutive minutes is not considered a shutout either.

How is either bit of information relevant to the discussion at hand?

Btw - if "consecutive" dominant seasons was such a big component of all-time player rankings - Lafleur might end up ranked #3 all time behind Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr. But it's not - and so he isn't.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thanks for posting. Yes, that's egregious. Now what do we do with it?

We know the scenario is not the same, Richard had just won a Cup and being a major impact in that win. And this was in a playoff game. Does Richard have a history of this lack of game awareness...that's my question. And it's not a question that's made to challenge you and your point...it's a conversational one...this is a dumb play and it has no upside. Did he often do things that suggest a lack of game/spatial awareness...?

 

[blogofmike]

You can't win a series on a percentage or a ratio. So you can say a power play is "better" because the Oilers went 5 for 5 in a series (100%). But if the other team goes 6 for 20 (30%), the latter has a distinct and obvious advantage in winning games.

Efficiency percentage does not necessarily translate to winning. Seen in our old friend save pct. Playoff save pct. leader doesn't usually win anything but the playoff save pct. crown...that and a dollar gets you the Sunday paper...even when you remove one-round wonders for sample size concerns (meaning, the quickest I can eliminate you is rd 2) you get...

2.5 Cups/eliminated first chance you got 6 times

2018 Martin Jones (out in rd 2)
2017 Matt Murray (split time goalie, only played the last round and a half, but won Cup)
2016 Braden Holtby (out in rd 2)
2015 Braden Holtby (out in rd 2)
2014 Tuukka Rask (out in rd 2)
2013 Tuukka Rask (lost SCF)
2012 Jonathan Quick (Won)
2011 Tim Thomas (Won)
2010 Jaroslav Halak (out in rd 3)
2009 Jonas Hiller (out in rd 2)
2008 Marc-Andre Fleury (lost SCF)
2007 Roberto Luongo (out in rd 2)
2006 Ilya Bryzgalov(out in rd 3)

The goalie with the least raw GA is going to do even worse over that span, and is likely a 1st round elimination each year. Or 2 round elimination if you eliminate those 1-rounders.

What's the better measure of a PP's ability? Would you coach your guys to be like a powerplay that was 5 for 5 in a series, or (as percentages don't matter) 6 for 1000?

 

[Sentinel]

No one celebrates RS contributions. Not even Ovi who had a blast celebrating his SC championship contribution.

That's fresh. So why even have RS awards? Why use them to evaluate players? Why have a regular season at all?

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's fresh. So why even have RS awards? Why use them to evaluate players? Why have a regular season at all?

To get ready and qualify for the playoffs