HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All Time

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that Keith and Weber absolutely both belong in the top 60 by now. Compare to the Norris records of the Norris era defensemen who are in the bottom 3rd of the list:

Rob Blake

97-98: 1st
99-00: 3rd
00-01: 4th
01-02: 3rd
02-03: 5th
03-04: 8th

Carl Brewer

59-60: 9th
60-61: 6th
61-62: 4th
62-63: 2nd
63-64: 9th
64-65: 6th
69-70: 3rd

Larry Murphy

80-81: 7th
86-87: 3rd
91-92: 5th
92-93: 3rd
94-95: 4th
97-98: 6th
98-99: 11th

Tom Johnson

53-54: 9th
55-56: 4th
57-58: 6th
58-59: 1st
59-60: 5th
61-62: 11th

Doug Wilson

80-81: 8th
81-82: 1st
82-83: 4th
84-85: 4th
89-90: 3rd

Compare to:

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: IMO, likely top 5 finish

Shea Weber

08-09: 4th
09-10: 7th
10-11: 2nd
11-12: 2nd
12-13: 8th
13-14: 3rd
14-15: IMO, likely a few votes

And their careers aren't even that short by this point.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Keith is gonna make a run at the top 20. Two Norrises, 2 Cups, 2 Golds, and the reputation of being the best defenceman on the best team in the cap era.

If he wins the Cup this year he'll likely take home the Smythe as well. He's still young enough to do more damage in the regular season as well.

 

[eli4spetterss0n]

Where would you rank Chara now? Since the list was made he's added a 2nd place Norris finish (which I don't think he deserved, but he got it nonetheless), a 1st NHL All-Star Team, and a strong cup run as his team's obvious #1 dman.

Is he higher than Scott Niedermayer at this point?

Also is Keith in the top 25? Where does Weber rank in this list? And I know his career is nowhere close to being done, but Karlsson probably makes this list too now eh?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Where would you rank Chara now? Since the list was made he's added a 2nd place Norris finish (which I don't think he deserved, but he got it nonetheless), a 1st NHL All-Star Team, and a strong cup run as his team's obvious #1 dman.

Is he higher than Scott Niedermayer at this point?

Without looking at it in more depth, I would say that's defensible as it stands now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Without looking at it in more depth, I would say that's defensible as it stands now.

Same here. I think the question at this point is whether Chara is ahead of Rod Langway, a few spots higher.

Above that you get Savard, Quackenbush, Howe... I think that's a bit tougher for him to crack. But in a few moments of thinking about it, I'm not seeing a decisive argument for Langway off the top of my head.

Also is Keith in the top 25?

I'd have a hard time ranking him lower than Brian Leetch, who is #23. Salming is #22 and that's a tough one.

Where does Weber rank in this list?

To me he feels like a Carl Brewer or Rob Blake, so mid-40s?

And I know his career is nowhere close to being done, but Karlsson probably makes this list too now eh?

I would say so. No idea where to put him, though.

 

[quoipourquoi]

And I know his career is nowhere close to being done, but Karlsson probably makes this list too now eh?

Such a tough ranking. Probably the best defenseman no less than three seasons while having some strong international showings, but he's still so young. I almost hate rating the truly exceptional players at all until their prime is done (or leveling off). But he's going to be high up there. Like... really high.

 

[MXD]

Such a tough ranking. Probably the best defenseman no less than three seasons while having some strong international showings, but he's still so young. I almost hate rating the truly exceptional players at all until their prime is done (or leveling off). But he's going to be high up there. Like... really high.

Still... I see a significant issue with Karlsson's ranking at this point : it's really easy to argue that he made exactly zero players look better than they actually were. And for a defenceman... I don't know, but that should matter quite a bit.

The thing is -- it's also something that can come up with time.

 

[GuineaPig]

Still... I see a significant issue with Karlsson's ranking at this point : it's really easy to argue that he made exactly zero players look better than they actually were.

Karlsson won his first Norris with Filip Kuba as his partner. Who lasted one season more in the NHL without him.

Like have you seen the with/without figures for Karlsson? The Sens were a good possession team with him on the ice last season, and dead last - by a mile - without. I don't know if there's a player who makes his teammates look better than Karlsson right now.

 

[MXD]

Karlsson won his first Norris with Filip Kuba as his partner. Who lasted one season more in the NHL without him.

Like have you seen the with/without figures for Karlsson? The Sens were a good possession team with him on the ice last season, and dead last - by a mile - without. I don't know if there's a player who makes his teammates look better than Karlsson right now.

Please reformulate.
I mean, it just make them better at possession stats, because Karlsson takes all the place. Of course, they have better possession stats, because they're on the ice WITH Karlsson. A 6-foot red cone would have better possession stats if he played with Erik Karlsson than if he'd play without him, even if that virtually means 4-on-5 hockey (and no, Karlsson isn't making the red cone any better). Better possessions stats doesn't make Karlsson's teammates better players, better actual contributors. You might be underrating Mark Stone, too.

He's no Martin St-Louis, that's for sure. At this point at least.

And the reason why I brought this point was in the somewhat narrow context of QPQ's post of "high up there".

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's a really weird argument to make about a defenseman TBH.

 

[Regal]

Please reformulate.
I mean, it just make them better at possession stats, because Karlsson takes all the place. Of course, they have better possession stats, because they're on the ice WITH Karlsson. A 6-foot red cone would have better possession stats if he played with Erik Karlsson than if he'd play without him, even if that virtually means 4-on-5 hockey (and no, Karlsson isn't making the red cone any better). Better possessions stats doesn't make Karlsson's teammates better players, better actual contributors. You might be underrating Mark Stone, too.

He's no Martin St-Louis, that's for sure. At this point at least.

And the reason why I brought this point was in the somewhat narrow context of QPQ's post of "high up there".

I'm confused by what you mean by making them better then? In terms of points? Because making a player "better" is pretty subjective.

 

[MXD]

That's a really weird argument to make about a defenseman TBH.

...Probably because I interpreted "high up there" as meaning "close to Bobby Orr".

 

[quoipourquoi]

...Probably because I interpreted "high up there" as meaning "close to Bobby Orr".

Certainly wasn't meant that way. I think landing in the Orr/Harvey/Bourque/Shore crowd is probably out of reach, but he has enough raw talent that I wouldn't suggest anything else is impossible, especially if he ages well over his 30s like the last few generations of top defensemen.

 

[MXD]

I'm confused by what you mean by making them better then? In terms of points? Because making a player "better" is pretty subjective.

...And padding stats is only that. Padding stats.

 

[trentmccleary]

In terms of where he could place, I've always compared Karlsson's achievements to Brian Leetch's achievements. Karlsson has already just matched, slightly bested or is coming close to many of Leetch's peak achievements, except for the Cup/Conn Smythe combo. So by the end of his career, the question should be whether he winds up behind or ahead of Leetch.

Feat|Leetch|Karlsson
Norris|2|2
Calder|1|0
Smythe|1|0
#1 D-pts|4|4
1st AST|2|3
2nd AST|3|0
Norris V.|1,1,3,4,5,5,5,8,9,10|1,1,2,7
Hart V.|9,16,22|8,9,9
Pts|102,88,85,79,79|82,78,74,66,45
Adj Pts|91,85,81,81,78,72,70|92,86,82,73,48
T-10 Pts|9th|4th,10th
T-10 PPG|N/A|6th
T-10 A|3,6,7,8,9|1,3,7
Cup|1|0

 

[MXD]

In terms of where he could place, I've always compared Karlsson's achievements to Brian Leetch's achievements. Karlsson has already just matched, slightly bested or is coming close to many of Leetch's peak achievements, except for the Cup/Conn Smythe combo. So by the end of his career, the question should be whether he winds up behind or ahead of Leetch.

Feat|Leetch|Karlsson
Norris|2|2
Calder|1|0
Smythe|1|0
#1 D-pts|4|4
1st AST|2|3
2nd AST|3|0
Norris V.|1,1,3,4,5,5,5,8,9,10|1,1,2,7
Hart V.|9,16,22|8,9,9
Pts|102,88,85,79,79|82,78,74,66,45
Adj Pts|91,85,81,81,78,72,70|92,86,82,73,48
T-10 Pts|9th|4th,10th
T-10 PPG|N/A|6th
T-10 A|3,6,7,8,9|1,3,7
Cup|1|0

Reasonable so far, but I don't see him end up behind Leetch at all.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Reasonable so far, but I don't see him end up behind Leetch at all.

Yeah I think he's pretty easily going to pass Leetch if he stays healthy. IMO the question is whether he has enough team success to justify a comparison to Coffey.

 

[Regal]

...And padding stats is only that. Padding stats.

Cryptic answers don't really say much. I'm still not following where you're going with this. Can you give an example of someone who made those around them better then and how?

 

[MXD]

Cryptic answers don't really say much. I'm still not following where you're going with this. Can you give an example of someone who made those around them better then and how?

Well, there's quite a few players that ended up significantly richer than they otherwise should've been because they were once teammates with Martin St-Louis. The same applies to Andrei Markov.

 

[Stuzchuk]

Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

Rank | No. | Player | Height | Weight | Born | Died | Career | Nationality
1|4| Bobby Orr |6'0"|199|1948||1966-1979|Canada
2|2| Doug Harvey |5'11"|190|1924|1989|1947-1969|Canada
3|77| Raymond Bourque |6'0"|219|1960||1979-2001|Canada
4|2| Eddie Shore |5'11"|194|1902|1985|1924-1944|Canada
5|5| Nicklas Lidström |6'2"|190|1970||1991-Present|Sweden
6|5| Denis Potvin |6'0"|205|1953||1973-1988|Canada
7|4| Leonard "Red" Kelly |6'0"|195|1927||1947-1967|Canada
8|2| Viacheslav Fetisov |6'1"|215|1958||1974-1998|Russia
9|19| Larry Robinson |6'3"|220|1951||1972-1992|Canada
10|24| Chris Chelios |6'1"|190|1962||1983-2010|USA
11|22| Brad Park |6'0"|190|1948||1968-1985|Canada
12|7| Francis "King" Clancy |5'7"|155|1903|1986|1921-1937|Canada
13|7| Paul Coffey |6'0"|200|1961||1980-2001|Canada
14|3| Pierre Pilote |5'10"|178|1931||1955-1969|Canada
15|2| Sprague Cleghorn |5'10"|190|1890|1956|1910-1928|Canada
16|17| Earl Seibert |6'2'|198|1911|1990|1931-1946|Canada
17|7| Tim Horton |5'10'|180|1930|1974|1949-1974|Canada
18|2| Al MacInnis |6'2"|204|1963||1981-2004|Canada
19|4| Scott Stevens |6'2"|215|1964||1982-2004|Canada
20|44| Chris Pronger |6'6'|220|1974||1994-Present|Canada
21|4| Bill Gadsby |6'0'|180|1927||1946-1966|Canada
22|21| Börje Salming |6'1"|193|1951||1970-1993|Sweden
23|2| Brian Leetch |6'0"|185|1968||1987-2006|USA
24|5| Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |6'2"|195|1907|1978|1927-1947|Canada
25|6| Valeri Vasiliev |5'11"|187|1949||1966-1984|Russia
26-T|2| Mark Howe |5'11"|185|1955||1973-1995|USA
26-T|11| Bill Quackenbush |5'11"|190|1922|1999|1942-1956|Canada
28|18| Serge Savard |6'3"|210|1946||1966-1983|Canada
29|5| Rod Langway |6'3"|218|1957||1977-1993|USA
30|8| Eddie Gerard |5'9"|168|1890|1937|1913-1923|Canada
31|2| Jack Stewart |5'10"|190|1917|1983|1938-1952|Canada
32|5| Guy Lapointe |6'0"|205|1948||1968-1984|Canada
33|27| Scott Niedermayer |6'1"|194|1973||1992-2010|Canada
34|3| Marcel Pronovost |6'0"|190|1930||1950-1970|Canada
35|2| Lionel Conacher |6'2"|195|1901|1954|1925-1937|Canada
36|| William "Hod" Stuart |6'0"|190|1879|1907|1902-1907|Canada
37|3| Ivan "Ching" Johnson |5'11"|210|1898|1979|1926-1938|Canada
38|2| Jacques Laperrière |6'2"|190|1941||1962-1974|Canada
39|7| Alexei Kasatonov |6'1"|215|1959||1976–1997|Russia
40|3| Jean-Claude Tremblay |5'11|170|1939|1994|1960-1979|Canada
41|| Ernest "Moose" Johnson |5'11|185|1896|1963|1905-1931|Canada
42|33| Zdeno Chára |6'9"|255|1977||1998-Present|Slovakia
43|5| Ebbie Goodfellow |6'0"|175|1907|1985|1929-1943|Canada
44|4| Rob Blake |6'4"|220|1969||1990-2010|Canada
45|3| Emile "Butch" Bouchard |6'2"|205|1919||1941-1956|Canada
46|2| Carl Brewer |5'9"|180|1938|2001|1958-1980|Canada
47|1| Albert "Babe" Siebert |5'10"|182|1904|1939|1925-1939|Canada
48|| Georges "Buck" Boucher |5'9|169|1896|1960|1915-1932|Canada
49|17| Jan Suchý |5'8|169|1944||1963-1983|Czech
50|55| Larry Murphy |6'2"|210|1961||1980-2001|Canada
51|17| Ken Reardon |5'10"|180|1921|2008|1940-1950|Canada
52|10| Tom Johnson |6'0"|180|1928|2007|1950-1965|Canada
53|| Lester Patrick |6'1"|180|1883|1960|1903-1927|Canada
54|2| Art Coulter |5'11"|185|1909|2000|1932-1942|Canada
55|24| Doug Wilson |6'1"|187|1957||1977-1993|Canada
56|2| Sylvio Mantha |5'10"|178|1902|1974|1923-1936|Canada
57|2| Harry Cameron |5'10"|155|1890|1953|1912-1926|Canada
58|60| František Pospíšil |6'0"|176|1944||1961-1978|Czech
59|26| Allan Stanley |6'1"|170|1926||1948-1969|Canada
60|| Harvey Pulford |5'11"|200|1875|1940|1893-1908|Canada

technically, where does he rank on this... even tough this is 5y/o, it's still fairly accurate

 

[Eye of Ra]

Erik Karlsson should be top 10 defensemen all time when he hangs up his skate.

He is elite in every sense. He is like a upgraded version of Paul Coffey.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Erik Karlsson should be top 10 defensemen all time when he hangs up his skate.

He is elite in every sense. He is like a upgraded version of Paul Coffey.

Karlsson is only 27. He has a long way to go.

Yes, he could be a Top 10 guy. I'd say he could even be a Top 5 guy. Health and team success will be factors that cannot be predicted at this point.

 

[MXD]

Karlsson is only 27. He has a long way to go.

Yes, he could be a Top 10 guy. I'd say he could even be a Top 5 guy. Health and team success will be factors that cannot be predicted at this point.

Top-5 is... I'd say possible.
But Karlsson is already quite a bit behind Bourque at same age (all things considered), 3rd Norris or not.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Top-5 is... I'd say possible.
But Karlsson is already quite a bit behind Bourque at same age (all things considered), 3rd Norris or not.

Top 5 would require continued improvement and good health, but that's not unheard of for 27 year old defensemen.

 

[MXD]

Top 5 would require continued improvement and good health, but that's not unheard of for 27 year old defensemen.

Never implied the contrary (and besides, Bourque isn't the standard he has to meet to be a Top-5 D-Men). Just wanted to add some perspective and my two cents that he might already be a little too much behind Bourque (at same age) to have more than a very small chance of catching him.