HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All Time

Dennis Bonvie

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Never implied the contrary (and besides, Bourque isn't the standard he has to meet to be a Top-5 D-Men). Just wanted to add some perspective and my two cents that he might already be a little too much behind Bourque (at same age) to have more than a very small chance of catching him.

My post wasn't meant in a negative way, wasn't disagreeing with you. Seems we are on the same page on this one.
 

Anidalife

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Never implied the contrary (and besides, Bourque isn't the standard he has to meet to be a Top-5 D-Men). Just wanted to add some perspective and my two cents that he might already be a little too much behind Bourque (at same age) to have more than a very small chance of catching him.

Pace like this doesn't really make sense when talking about absolute top players imo. Karlsson is also far far ahead of Lidstrom at his age, and this difference is maybe greater than his difference from Bourque, and yet I don't know if he'll be better or worse than Lidstrom in the end.

If he goes on like Lidstrom and wins 6+ Norris trophies in his 30s or something, he might end up above Bourque. If he keeps current pace, he still might end up above Bourque or below Lidstrom. If he scores 100 points next 3 years then fade away, then it's yet another argument entirely. That's why I think peak matters more when talking about Karlsson currently, since his career is not over. And his peak currently gives him a non-zero chance at top 5 and a slight chance at top 3.
 

seventieslord

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Karlsson will need to have a better playoff record to have a hope at the top-7. And I hope he does. Which means, from both a practical standpoint, and for me to be able to cheer for him to do well in the playoffs, he needs to leave Ottawa.

(his personal performances have nothing to do with his lack of a playoff record, but such is the harsh game of breaking into the top-10 defensemen of all-time)
 

MXD

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Karlsson will need to have a better playoff record to have a hope at the top-7. And I hope he does. Which means, from both a practical standpoint, and for me to be able to cheer for him to do well in the playoffs, he needs to leave Ottawa.

(his personal performances have nothing to do with his lack of a playoff record, but such is the harsh game of breaking into the top-10 defensemen of all-time)

I wish I could've worded THAT.

But... I dunno, Eddie Shore is presumably in your Top-7, and at least it's totally impossible to blame Karlsson for his team...
 

Rhiessan71

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Erik Karlsson should be top 10 defensemen all time when he hangs up his skate.

He is elite in every sense. He is like a upgraded version of Paul Coffey.

Well...Coffey doesn't even make the top-10 around here (13th) and as good offensively as Karlsson is, he is not in Coffey's class.

Orr and Coffey are quite clearly and quite significantly in an offensive category all by themselves.

Karlsson is not Bourque and he never will be. He is also not Lidstrom and never will be.

If one wants the best comparitive, one would have to go with Leetch IMO.

The question then becomes, can one honestly place Karlsson ahead of Leetch at the same point in their careers?
Offensively, it looks fairly close.
Defensively, Leetch doesn't have a huge edge but it is a clear one.
Playoff's...Leetch buries Karlsson to this point.

So no, I don't believe any rational person can honestly have Karlsson ahead of Leetch at this point.

I mean obviously with Leetch's knee problems and playing on some really, really bad teams after year 9, Karlsson is going to have the opportunity to make up some ground but in order to pass him, he will have to catch him first and that is no small task IMO.
 

GuineaPig

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It's just too early to say at this point. With forwards you generally understand that by the time they hit 30 their best years are past them. That's not the case with dmen, and it makes being "on pace for" whatever meaningless.

Though I'd be less confident about 2011-12 Karlsson being a top 10 dman than 2016-17 Karlsson. He relies on his speed less and his passing/positioning more, which bodes well for being dominant into his 30s.
 

MXD

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It's just too early to say at this point. With forwards you generally understand that by the time they hit 30 their best years are past them. That's not the case with dmen, and it makes being "on pace for" whatever meaningless.

Though I'd be less confident about 2011-12 Karlsson being a top 10 dman than 2016-17 Karlsson. He relies on his speed less and his passing/positioning more, which bodes well for being dominant into his 30s.

Hell, I'd be less confident about 15-16 Karlsson than about 16-17 Karlsson.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Well...Coffey doesn't even make the top-10 around here (13th) and as good offensively as Karlsson is, he is not in Coffey's class.

Orr and Coffey are quite clearly and quite significantly in an offensive category all by themselves.

Karlsson is not Bourque and he never will be. He is also not Lidstrom and never will be.

If one wants the best comparitive, one would have to go with Leetch IMO.

The question then becomes, can one honestly place Karlsson ahead of Leetch at the same point in their careers?
Offensively, it looks fairly close.
Defensively, Leetch doesn't have a huge edge but it is a clear one.
Playoff's...Leetch buries Karlsson to this point.

So no, I don't believe any rational person can honestly have Karlsson ahead of Leetch at this point.

I mean obviously with Leetch's knee problems and playing on some really, really bad teams after year 9, Karlsson is going to have the opportunity to make up some ground but in order to pass him, he will have to catch him first and that is no small task IMO.

Leetch had 2 first team all-star selections for his career. Karlsson already has 3.

Leetch's highest point finish was 9th. Karlsson has a 4th and a 10th.

Both have 2 Norris Trophies.

Leetch does have the Conn Smythe (and a big one at that). But outside of that one season, he was -17. Still has the edge, though.
 

Rhiessan71

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Leetch had 2 first team all-star selections for his career. Karlsson already has 3.

Leetch's highest point finish was 9th. Karlsson has a 4th and a 10th.

Both have 2 Norris Trophies.

Leetch does have the Conn Smythe (and a big one at that). But outside of that one season, he was -17. Still has the edge, though.

How about the context of their All-star selections and point finishes?
Do you believe they each faced an equal level of competition in their first 8 years?
I sure as hell don't.

I think all I would have to do is say prime Bourque, Chelios, MacInnis, Coffey, Stevens and this conversation is over before it began.
And any point finish argument from 1979-1997 is a bit of a joke really when you have 2 extreme outliers like 99 and 66 skewing them, no?
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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How about the context of their All-star selections and point finishes?
Do you believe they each faced an equal level of competition in their first 8 years?
I sure as hell don't.

I think all I would have to do is say prime Bourque, Chelios, MacInnis, Coffey, Stevens and this conversation is over before it began.
And any point finish argument from 1979-1997 is a bit of a joke really when you have 2 extreme outliers like 99 and 66 skewing them, no?

Take out the 2 outliers and you have one 7th place finish instead of a 9th.

Karlsson's only 27. Lots of time to improve even more. Seems to be on that path. And his leadership qualities dwarf Leetch's.
 

Rhiessan71

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Take out the 2 outliers and you have one 7th place finish instead of a 9th.

5th place you mean right? Or do you actually believe Stevens and Robitaille still finish top-10 without Gretzky and Lemieux?

Karlsson's only 27. Lots of time to improve even more. Seems to be on that path. And his leadership qualities dwarf Leetch's.

You know it was Leetch that carried the Ranger's to the Cup in the Finals in '94 right?
And I'm sure you're also aware that he was immediately made Captain upon Messier's departure and was Captian of team USA as well.
 
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tarheelhockey

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I'd have a VERY hard time holding it against Karlsson if runs like 2017 end up defining his playoff legacy. He was really damn good this spring. It's not like he drafted himself to a mediocre team.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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5th place you mean right? Or do you actually believe Stevens and Robitaille still finish top-10 without Gretzky and Lemieux?



You know it was Leetch that carried the Ranger's to the Cup in the Finals in '94 right?
And I'm sure you're also aware that he was immediately made Captain upon Messier's departure and was Captian of team USA as well.

So can I take Messier away from Leetch? That should take him out of the top 10 altogether.

Yes I know it was Leetch (and Richter) that lead the Rangers to the Cup. And once Leetch became captain after Messier left both Leetch & the Rangers had 4 terrible seasons.
 

Rhiessan71

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So can I take Messier away from Leetch? That should take him out of the top 10 altogether.

You mean just like taking Spezza away in 11/12 would knock Karlsson out of the top-10?

Yes I know it was Leetch (and Richter) that lead the Rangers to the Cup.
Well Leetch's 11 points in in the Finals did seem to be the deciding factor as his Smythe attests to.

And once Leetch became captain after Messier left both Leetch & the Rangers had 4 terrible seasons.

So now Leetch is responsible for the moves management made to mortgage their future so they could win in '94?

Look, I'm sorry but I just don't see how Karlsson's leadership to this point has separated him much from Leetch's. Certainly not to the degree you were making it out to be.

Regardless, my point stands that after 8 seasons Leetch is quite clearly ahead of Karlsson so this talk of top-10 all-time is extremely premature and any talk of top-5 at this point is quite frankly simply ridiculous.

Top-20 or even top-15 would not be out of the question and the more reasonable estimate currently.
I wouldn't rule out the top-10 but that's a tough nut to crack and would require a hell of a lot of things to go right in the next 8-10 years for it to happen.
I do however feel that I can rule out the top-5 very comfortably at this point and in the near future. I don't see him cracking into Bourque/Lidstrom/Potvin territory anytime soon, sorry.
 
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MXD

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Rhiessan, you aren't arguing your point badly, but you aren't exactly helping your cause when equating Jason Spezza with Mark Messier...
 

Canadiens1958

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I'd have a VERY hard time holding it against Karlsson if runs like 2017 end up defining his playoff legacy. He was really damn good this spring. It's not like he drafted himself to a mediocre team.

No, he was drafted in 2008 by a Senator team, one season removed from the 2007 SC finals.

No relationship to his present day performance or going forward.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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You mean just like taking Spezza away in 11/12 would knock Karlsson out of the top-10?


Well Leetch's 11 points in in the Finals did seem to be the deciding factor as his Smythe attests to.



So now Leetch is responsible for the moves management made to mortgage their future so they could win in '94?

Look, I'm sorry but I just don't see how Karlsson's leadership to this point has separated him much from Leetch's. Certainly not to the degree you were making it out to be.

Regardless, my point stands that after 8 seasons Leetch is quite clearly ahead of Karlsson so this talk of top-10 all-time is extremely premature and any talk of top-5 at this point is quite frankly simply ridiculous.

Top-20 or even top-15 would not be out of the question and the more reasonable estimate currently.
I wouldn't rule out the top-10 but that's a tough nut to crack and would require a hell of a lot of things to go right in the next 8-10 years for it to happen.
I do however feel that I can rule out the top-5 very comfortably at this point and in the near future. I don't see him cracking into Bourque/Lidstrom/Potvin territory anytime soon, sorry.

No one has predicted (certainly not me) that Karlsson will be a Top 5 or Top 10 dman. Only that the possibility exists for him. So we aren't that far apart at all.
 

Rhiessan71

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No one has predicted (certainly not me) that Karlsson will be a Top 5 or Top 10 dman. Only that the possibility exists for him. So we aren't that far apart at all.

My original response that got us going was to Eye of Ra who was indeed predicting the top-10.
I have seen a few others in the thread saying top-5.

And no, we're not far apart but I couldn't in good conscience let the all-star and point finish comparison stand.
Leetch was competing with what was the strongest and most consistent group of dmen in history playing in a league that I would have no issue saying was the strongest and most talent packed in my lifetime.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Top 10 all-time among D for Karlsson is far from guaranteed, but at this point in his career, I'd be mildly disappointed if he didn't make it.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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And no, we're not far apart but I couldn't in good conscience let the all-star and point finish comparison stand.
Leetch was competing with what was the strongest and most consistent group of dmen in history playing in a league that I would have no issue saying was the strongest and most talent packed in my lifetime.

i always thought that in the four year stretch where peak bourque had competition from another defenseman's norris-level season every year, it was at least mildly a sham that '91 macinnis and '94 stevens walked away with no norris, albeit by the slimmest of margins, while '92 leetch won it almost unanimously, by a much larger margin than '93 chelios.

i also thought that of the "big six" of that era, leetch was always the clear last one of the group. i'm including post-oilers coffey, with the superlative '95 season as his high achievement, but not the earlier coffey, or the pre-norris bourque, because leetch wasn't in the league yet and strictly speaking chelios, macinnis, and stevens weren't elite until around '87 or '88. but i think in that big six, there was one guy where it didn't matter that he wasn't a great defender because he could put up a lot of points, but it wasn't leetch; it was coffey.

so yes, leetch had much steeper competition than karlsson. but on the other hand, the fact that he walked away from that competition with two norrises suggests that he was given extra consideration, due to where he played, due to the prestige of the big '92 turnaround, due to more eyes watching because of his high profile teammate, or whatever, that probably in the end evens out with the "advantage" karlsson gets from playing in a weaker era for defensemen.
 

BenchBrawl

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I don't think Karlsson can reach Denis Potvin personally.I mean, yes he can reach him, but it would take something spectacular.To this day I feel dirty ranking Lidstrom over Potvin, and some days I flip them.But Lidstrom has the playoffs to show for it, and I don't mean that he was great while reaching the conference finals on a weak team, I mean winning multiple Stanley Cups kind of playoff resume.Then you do some Norris counting and Lidstrom "forces you" to rank him over Potvin.But that's what it takes, because Potvin was incredibly dominant, hit the ground running, turned a dead franchise into a dynasty while captaining it and then retired soon after that.He came, he conquered, he left.That's also what Doug Harvey did.To beat that, you absolutely need Stanley Cups or be a cup-less Bobby Orr.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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The point was more about having another teammate in the top-10 ahead of them.

i think his point is that we can probably safely assume that karlsson was more responsible for spezza's career year (and not the other way around) than leetch was for the third or fourth best scoring season of messier's career?
 

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