HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

[seventieslord]

I do too (in the list I put in last month) but I was tempted to put him nearer to 30th. None of the other defensively-challenged offensive defensemen talked about are top-80 imo. A defenseman's primary job is to defend imo and is to be judged accordingly. Of course, surging up ice on transition and slapping shots at the net are part of the position, especially in the recent eras, but it's not quite as important to a blueliner's primary job. Coffey is a special talent and I had a love-hate relationship (he was my hero when I cheered him in Edmonton), as his defense sucked royally in Detroit and wasn't great in Pittsburgh. Going to games live I got to see a lot of Coffey and the only player I've seen play worse defense was Pavel Bure, and - well - the Rocket's job was offense! His linemates covered for him defensively.

that is countered, though, by the fact that Coffey was so far ahead offensively, of any defenseman not named Orr.

30th would mean you would consider guys like Leetch, Vasiliev and Quackenbush superior... is that really believable?

 

[VanIslander]

that is countered, though, by the fact that Coffey was so far ahead offensively, of any defenseman not named Orr.

30th would mean you would consider guys like Leetch, Vasiliev and Quackenbush superior... is that really believable?

1. Of course his offense was so exceptional that, as I said, I put him top-20.

2. I wanted to think there were 30 better defensemen than him in terms of overall value given the importance of defending ability to the position, but I could not in good conscience put him behind guys I had in the 21-30 range, so top-20 he sits on my list. There is no formula: all factors are weighed and players compared a hundred ways depending on their strengths their overall package, their impact on the game, etcetera. Gawd making a ranking list takes hour of sheer mental fun work!

 

[seventieslord]

1. Of course his offense was so exceptional that, as I said, I put him top-20.

2. I wanted to think there were 30 better defensemen than him in terms of overall value given the importance of defending ability to the position, but I could not in good conscience put him behind guys I had in the 21-30 range, so top-20 he sits on my list. There is no formula: all factors are weighed and players compared a hundred ways depending on their strengths their overall package, their impact on the game, etcetera. Gawd making a ranking list takes hour of sheer mental fun work!

fair enough, makes sense.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I have a hard time putting Coffey outside of the top 15, but I'm looking forward to hearing the arguments

 

[jkrx]

I have a hard time putting Coffey outside of the top 15, but I'm looking forward to hearing the arguments

There is only one argument. He wasn't good enough defensively.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

There is only one argument. He wasn't good enough defensively.

True, but it's not quite that simple when there is basically no one comparable offensively outside of Orr. You have to somehow show that the low level of defense offsets the incredibly high level of offense. Not an easy task when you're talking about a player that is a proven winner with multiple Cups.

 

[chaosrevolver]

Sent mine in.

 

[jkrx]

True, but it's not quite that simple when there is basically no one comparable offensively outside of Orr. You have to somehow show that the low level of defense offsets the incredibly high level of offense. Not an easy task when you're talking about a player that is a proven winner with multiple Cups.

The hard thing about Coffey is that it's hard to look at him in hindsight because all his stats are obscured by the team he was on. Same thing obviously goes for most of the 80s oilers.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The hard thing about Coffey is that it's hard to look at him in hindsight because all his stats are obscured by the team he was on. Same thing obviously goes for most of the 80s oilers.

Coffey was better defensively than he gets credit for. Not great but he wasn't bad either, not like Housley who was brutal. Below average for a superstar D-man maybe but average in relation to the rest of the league.

As far as the Oilers....they didn't care that much for defense, not in the regular season any way. They believed that if you scored 4 goals, they would score 6 and the majority of the time they did.
It took them a couple of years in the playoffs to realise that that kind of thinking doesn't win you Cups and changed accordingly.
They weren't a completely different team come playoff time but they were more defensively responsible, Coffey included.

Orr heads the list because he was not only one the best offensive players ever but also because his defensive play was among the leagues best as well.

No one makes the top 10 without some offensive contribution and it seems silly to punish the second most prolific scoring D-man especially when he wasn't a liability like Housley and Green were/are.

If Stevens has to let his offense slip to an average level to bump up his defense to make the top 15, shouldn't Coffey be given the same recognition for letting his defensive play slip to average levels to accomplish that ridiculous offense?

I think so and why I have Coffey firmly in my top 15.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just sent mine... not gonna lie, I ran out of steam toward the end and will probably look back and laugh at some selections.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Coffey was better defensively than he gets credit for. Not great but he wasn't bad either, not like Housley who was brutal. Below average for a superstar D-man maybe but average in relation to the rest of the league.

As far as the Oilers....they didn't care that much for defense, not in the regular season any way. They believed that if you scored 4 goals, they would score 6 and the majority of the time they did.
It took them a couple of years in the playoffs to realise that that kind of thinking doesn't win you Cups and changed accordingly.
They weren't a completely different team come playoff time but they were more defensively responsible, Coffey included.

Orr heads the list because he was not only one the best offensive players ever but also because his defensive play was among the leagues best as well.

No one makes the top 10 without some offensive contribution and it seems silly to punish the second most prolific scoring D-man especially when he wasn't a liability like Housley and Green were/are.

If Stevens has to let his offense slip to an average level to bump up his defense to make the top 15, shouldn't Coffey be given the same recognition for letting his defensive play slip to average levels to accomplish that ridiculous offense?

I think so and why I have Coffey firmly in my top 15.

Too add to this comparison, Coffey is pretty much hands down the 2nd best offensive talent on the blueline ever, Scott Stevens is not the hands down 2nd best defensive talent.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Too add to this comparison, Coffey is pretty much hands down the 2nd best offensive talent on the blueline ever, Scott Stevens is not the hands down 2nd best defensive talent.

There is an argument that Red Kelly had comparable offense to Paul Coffey, though I don't agree with it.

More generally, how much of this is because it's easier to quantify offense than defense?

There is no hands down 2nd best defensive talent, because it's harder to rank defense like that. IMO, Stevens would be in the Top 10 of any reasonable list of defensive defensemen, IMO.

From what I've read and seen, Eddie Gerard, Ching Johnson, Doug Harvey, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens and Nicklas Lidstrom would also be on the list (ordered more or less chronologically). Possibly Ray Bourque, depending on how you classify him. I believe there has been something of a consensus among the older posters here that Doug Harvey is the best defensive defenseman they ever saw, but I don't think there has ever been a consensus for #2.

 

[Dreakmur]

There is an argument that Red Kelly had comparable offense to Paul Coffey, though I don't agree with it.

I started to make that argument, but, when I crunched the numbers, they didn't support it. Coffey is definately better offensively than Red Kelly.... though Red Kelly has a muh better overall game.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I started to make that argument, but, when I crunched the numbers, they didn't support it. Coffey is definately better offensively than Red Kelly.... though Red Kelly has a muh better overall game.

What numbers did you crunch?

IIRC, Kelly outpointed fellow defensemen by similar margins as Paul Coffey, but didn't score as highly against the forwards of the league.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Too add to this comparison, Coffey is pretty much hands down the 2nd best offensive talent on the blueline ever, Scott Stevens is not the hands down 2nd best defensive talent.

If you are going by numbers, how is Coffey (2nd) hands down better than Bourque (1st)?

I realize Coffey played less games and was a more spectacular offensive player. But Bourque didn't play on the dynasty Oilers (the greatest offensive team ever, hands down). Nor did he play with Mario, or again with the Great One, or with Lindros or with Yzerman & Federov.

I won't argue Coffey being 2nd best offensively, but I don't think its that clear cut.

 

[Rhiessan71]

If you are going by numbers, how is Coffey (2nd) hands down better than Bourque (1st)?

I realize Coffey played less games and was a more spectacular offensive player. But Bourque didn't play on the dynasty Oilers (the greatest offensive team ever, hands down). Nor did he play with Mario, or again with the Great One, or with Lindros or with Yzerman & Federov.

I won't argue Coffey being 2nd best offensively, but I don't think its that clear cut.

You're right, it's not that clear cut but like you said the prevailing edge goes to Coffey.
Here's the thing though, some try and pretend that Lidstrom is close to Bourque's offense but I have never seen anyone even attempt to say Lidstrom is remotely close to Coffey's offense.
Funny aint it
If Coffey or Robinson or Potvin or Orr gets punished for the teams and players he was with in comparison to Bourque, why doesn't Lidstrom....food for thought.

 

[VanIslander]

Bourque is better on the powerplay, Coffey better on transition (though Coffey had a lot more offensive talent to score with).

Imagine if Bourque had played with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Lemieux and Fedorov's two 100+ point seasons? Paul is one lucky duck: His offensive style during an offensive-oriented era playing on the top offensive teams.

 

[MXD]

You're right, it's not that clear cut but like you said the prevailing edge goes to Coffey.
Here's the thing though, some try and pretend that Lidstrom is close to Bourque's offense but I have never seen anyone even attempt to say Lidstrom is remotely close to Coffey's offense.

That's probably just that : people trying to make a point.

Coffey/Bourque? The gap is obvious. Not huge. But obvious.

 

[Dreakmur]

What numbers did you crunch?

IIRC, Kelly outpointed fellow defensemen by similar margins as Paul Coffey, but didn't score as highly against the forwards of the league.

I calculated % vs #2. I'm pretty sure Coffey had a definate advantage in both peak and longevity.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I calculated % vs #2. I'm pretty sure Coffey had a definate advantage in both peak and longevity.

Okay, but vs. #2 is among all players (which basically means vs forwards).

The argument for Kelly is that if you just compare him to other defensemen of his era, he dominates them like Coffey does the defensemen of his era.

 

[seventieslord]

Okay, but vs. #2 is among all players (which basically means vs forwards).

The argument for Kelly is that if you just compare him to other defensemen of his era, he dominates them like Coffey does the defensemen of his era.

I'm guessing that's what he meant.

 

[Dreakmur]

Okay, but vs. #2 is among all players (which basically means vs forwards).

The argument for Kelly is that if you just compare him to other defensemen of his era, he dominates them like Coffey does the defensemen of his era.

I did #2 among defensemen.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Coffey was better defensively than he gets credit for. Not great but he wasn't bad either, not like Housley who was brutal. Below average for a superstar D-man maybe but average in relation to the rest of the league.

As far as the Oilers....they didn't care that much for defense, not in the regular season any way. They believed that if you scored 4 goals, they would score 6 and the majority of the time they did.
It took them a couple of years in the playoffs to realise that that kind of thinking doesn't win you Cups and changed accordingly.
They weren't a completely different team come playoff time but they were more defensively responsible, Coffey included.

Orr heads the list because he was not only one the best offensive players ever but also because his defensive play was among the leagues best as well.

No one makes the top 10 without some offensive contribution and it seems silly to punish the second most prolific scoring D-man especially when he wasn't a liability like Housley and Green were/are.

If Stevens has to let his offense slip to an average level to bump up his defense to make the top 15, shouldn't Coffey be given the same recognition for letting his defensive play slip to average levels to accomplish that ridiculous offense?

I think so and why I have Coffey firmly in my top 15.

I love this post for a lot of reasons, but primarily because it is cognizant of the fact that Coffey's supremely high-octane offence, which made him arguably the second-greatest player at his position in league history while in possession of the puck, was off-set by some fairly underrated defensive play.

No Coffey was not a Rod Langway or Tim Horton out there when it came to neutralizing opponents, but he was an intelligent and heady defender with tremendous hockey IQ whose supremely masterful skating ability allowed him to skate the puck out of trouble or relieve pressure in the defensive zone.

Defence is not simply relegated to bashing in the heads of the opposition or making noticeable plays like blocking shots or cross-checking opponents parked in front of the net (as anyone who has ever appreciated Nicklas Lidstrom can attest) and Coffey's incredible offensive peak during his Edmonton and Pittsburgh years, combined with the more well-rounded form that he would show towards the end of his career, culminating in that stellar 1994-95 season for a Stanley Cup Finalist Detroit Red Wings squad, when he truly was one of the league's most valuable players to his team, merits him a place in my top ten at tenth on my finalized list. For the record, I had Stevens ranked thirteenth overall by comparison.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Coffey was 17th on mine as well, ahead of Nieds and behind Pronger as I recall. 18th actually I went back and looked.

Like I said when I posted my list, it would be 7 different lists 7 days a week depending on how I felt on the various factors in evaluating all of the thousands of Dmen over time.

Greens peak and the context in which it took place was enough to put him 80th on the day i finalized my list but I can see guys going other directions and leaving him off entirely. Its kinda weird reflecting back on it because I'm a heavy career guy but I was very tired and had a head cold as well.

Heh. I had Ted Green ranked eightieth on my list as well.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

First two are in my list. Always thought Hatcher was overrated, but had it been a Top-90, I'd have given him a long look.

I have always felt that Hatcher has been somewhat overrated on this board for whatever reason. His general skillset was uniquely suited towards the Dead Puck Era and pre-lockout NHL when he could run interference on opposing forwards or engage in some pretty blatant obstruction tactics with impunity. However, following the lock-out it was clear that he had become a liability as an everyday NHL defenceman. I don't believe that players should be punished for the period in which they play and the trends that dictate the style of play, so perhaps I'm being unduly harsh on Hatcher, but I never got the impression (other than his fine 2003 season) that he was one of the better defencemen in the league, let alone a legitimate stalwart, which is pretty much what a player would have to be in order to merit a spot on an all-time positional ranking list.

He was a very good physical defenceman at his peak who could provide an intimidation factor to opposing forwards, encouraging them towards the outside, but he was a fairly poor skater who provided little in the way of offence for a debatable top-tier defender. He had seasons in which he just scraped to 30 points, which is comparable to Adam Foote and latter career Scott Stevens, but I never considered him near to their equal on the defensive end. And quite frankly, given his weakness in terms of skating and relatively slow speed, I don't think that his defensive game was nearly as dominant as has been portrayed by some observers. On the positive end of things for Hatcher is the fact that Dallas used him upwards of 27 to 28 minutes per game at one point during his peak seasons (aged 27-30), which means that he shouldered significant responsibility against the opposition's best forwards, but perhaps my judgement is being clouded by his later struggles within the more speed and skill oriented style that has defined the post-lockout NHL.