HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[Sprague Cleghorn]

It's right there on the first sentence.

How the hell did i miss that that?

 

[Sanf]

...Ylönen's and Valtonen's international careers don't look any worse than Leif Holmqvist's, and yet I had Honken around 50ish and no Ylönen nor Valtonen... but maybe it was more of a case of overrating Holmqvist than underrating the Finnish goalies... as for other Finns, I just had to have Matti Hagman on the list; I simply couldn't stand the idea that there would be two Germans (Kühnhackl & Jaenecke) on my list and no Finns! Seriously speaking, I do think that Hagman was that talented and so think many other Finns too - just ask Jari Kurri...

My main problem with Ylönen is that how does he compare to other top European goaltenders. I agree that I don´t see that much difference between Ylönen and Holmqvist. Ylönen apparently "retired" from national team after 71. So in away he was´t challenger for Valtonen and Leppänen after that. He did come back in 76.

Valtonen has couple of things in his career resume that makes it look slightly better. For example 1980 Olympics. Kamppuri had already surpassed him in league, but he left to WHA. Mattsson (who I admit is hard to compare to domestic goalies) was also already playing there. Similarly Hannu Lassila was having a good season in Sweden, but it was difficult to get to national team if you were "mercenary" abroad. Valtonen was also in 1984 Olympics. Similarly I would see that Kamppuri and Mattsson were the top two Finnish goalies at the time, but both were ineligible.

I really don´t know if I have Hagman on my list. Great individual talent, but his international career is modest (and there were the off ice issues that hurt the team). I think that Hagman gained leadership role from his talent, but use that in all the wrong ways. Some may disagree.

His NHL career is also bit of question mark. Here is quote from Messier from

Boca Raton News - Mar 17, 1982

"When I was playing on the same line with Glenn and Matti (Hagman, the Oilers´second-line center), other teams might let up for a minute because Wayne was off the ice. They didn´t realize that Matti is just as capable of making big play as Wayne. He´s dangerous too."

That is great compliment, but it goes other way too. Is it possible that Hagman even gained somewhat from the second line center role?



Also a question. Is Reijo Ruotsalainen eligible?

 

[Theokritos]

Also a question. Is Reijo Ruotsalainen eligible?

No, he's not on the list of eligible players:

Eligible players

1) Every European who never played in the NHL or WHA,

plus

2) the following players who spent some time in the NHL or WHA:

-Helmuts Balderis: had a very late guest stint in the NHL. Clearly a non-NHL player overall.
-Jiří Bubla: was 31 when he came to North America.
-Anders Carlsson: three seasons in the NHL/AHL, rest of his career in Europe. Don't think he's going to come up though.
-Roman Čechmánek: four seasons in North America.
-FrantiÅ¡ek Černík: one season in the NHL. Doesn't have a shot realistically anyway.
-Milan Chalupa: one season in North America.
-Jiří Crha: four seasons in North America.
-Miroslav Dvořák: same as Bubla.
-Anders Eldebrink: two seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Vyacheslav Fetisov: was 31 when he came to the NHL.
-Aleksey Gusarov: 26 when he went to North America, a borderline case but we're inclusive here.
-Matti Hagman: four seasons in North America.
-Raimo Helminen: three seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Ivan Hlinka: 31 when he came over, two seasons in the NHL.
-Leif Holmqvist: one season in the WHA.
-Jiří Hrdina: basically four seasons in the NHL, was 30 when he came over.
-Kari Jalonen: two seasons in North America.
-Jaroslav Jiřík: one season in North America.
-Jörgen Jönsson: one season in the NHL, rest of his career in Europe.
-Valery Kamensky: long NHL career beginning in his 20s, but only after a significant injury suffered in 1991.
-Aleksey Kasatonov: came over when he was 30, best years in Europe.
-Veli-Pekka Ketola: four seasons in the WHA and NHL.
-Vladimir Krutov: not much of a career in North America.
-Igor Larionov: lengthy NHL career, but only came over when he was 29.
-Igor Liba: one season in the NHL.
-HÃ¥kan Loob: six seasons in the NHL in his 20s make him a borderline pick in terms of eligibility, but international resume trumps NHL career.
-Tord Lundström: only a few games in the NHL.
-Sergey Makarov: European career clearly tops NHL career.
-Aleksey Morozov: his best years were in Russia.
-Jarmo Myllys: four seasons in the NHL/IHL.
-Václav Nedomanský: was 30 when he came to North America.
-Milan Nový: a single season in the NHL once he had turned 31.
-Petteri Nummelin: three seasons in the NHL.
-Dušan Pašek: two seasons in North America.
-Ville Peltonen: quite some prime time in the NHL, but his European career is more impressive.
-Jaroslav Pouzar: three seasons and a half in the NHL.
-Aleksandr Radulov: like Morozov.
-Pekka Rautakallio: five seasons in North America, more in Europe.
-Vladimír Růžička: five seasons in the NHL (not all of them full seasons), a lot more in Czechoslovakia resp. the Czech Republic.
-Lars-Erik Sjöberg: only came over when he was 30.
-Marián Å ťastný: five seasons in the NHL after coming over to North America at 27 years of age. A little too late to consider him an NHL player for the purpose of this project.
-Ulf Sterner: one season in North America.
-Mikhail Tatarinov: career in the NHL cut short by injuries.

EDIT: List is presumably finished. If you have a case for any player not on the list, post it in this thread.

Since no-one has made a case for Ruotsalainen in that thread, it would be unfair to declare him eligible now that others have already submitted their ballots under the assumption he's ineligible.

 

[Sanf]

No, he's not on the list of eligible players:

Since no-one has made a case for Ruotsalainen in that thread, it would be unfair to declare him eligible now that others have already submitted their ballots under the assumption he's ineligible.

Ok. Fair. I wasn´t that active in these threads because I thought that I´m not going to participate.

 

[Plural]

How the hell did i miss that that?

Perfectly normal. Just today I was looking for my sunglasses when they were on my nose. Sometimes we can't see the most obvious things.

 

[Batis]

One thing that I feel sometimes gets forgotten when speaking about Bobrov is that he played his first full season at age 25 in 47/48 (Bobrov also played 1 game and scored 3 goals in 46/47 at age 24) and that he played in his first international tournament at age 31. The, along with Bobrov, most dominant Soviet scorer domestically Alexei Guryshev was for example two and a half years younger than Bobrov. Which may not sound like much but I personally think that Guryshev being able to play hockey during more years of his prime age is a part of the explanation why Guryshevs domestic scoring record is comparable to Bobrovs or even better than Bobrovs. Another reason is of course that Guryshev was a great scorer but I personally think that if hockey would have been taken up in the Soviet Union 5 years earlier Bobrovs domestic scoring record would have been ahead of Guryshevs.
During the time period when both players were in their 20´s at the same time (47/48-51/52) Bobrov completely dominated the scoring race. Guryshev should get credit for being a better scorer domestically in his 30´s (2 scoring titles) than Bobrov was though.

Soviet scoring from 47/48 to 51/52. Taken from Hockeyarchives.

47/48
1 Vsevolod Bobrov CDKA 52
2 Ivan Novikov Spartak 32
3 Vassili Trofimov Dynamo M 31
4 Zdenek Zigmund Spartak 28
5 Robert Shulmanis Riga 24
6 Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 23
7 Evgeni Babich CDKA 22
8 Nikolaï Postavnin Dynamo M 21
Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 21
10 Vsevolod Blinkov Dynamo M 20

48/49
1 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 29
2 Vsevolod Bobrov CDKA 27
3 Ivan Novikov VVS 23
4 Anatoli Viktorov Dynamo L 22
5 Valentin Zakharov Spartak 20
6 Vassili Trofimov Dynamo M 19
Zdenek Zikmund VVS 19
8 Viktor Shuvalov Chelyab. 18
9 Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 16
Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo M 16

49/50
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS Moscou 36
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS Moscou 27
Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 27
Anatoli Tarasov CDKA 27
5 Zenonas Ganusauskas Spartak 25
6 Vladimir Menshikov CDKA 24
7 Alfons Jegers Riga 23
8 Vladimir Elizarov CDKA 22
9 Franz Lapin Bolchevik 21
Georgi Zhenishek Chelyabinsk 21
Vladimir Novozhikov Spartak 21

50/51
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS 42
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 28
3 Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo M 21
4 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 20
5 Leonid Stepanov Krylia 13
Viktor Klimovich Dynamo M 13
Evgeni Babich VVS 13
8 Aleksandr Komarov CSKA 12
Valentin Kuzin Dynamo M 12

51/52
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS 37
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 31
3 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 21
4 Aleksandr Komarov CDSA 21
5 Edgar Bauris Daugava 17

Bobrovs 5-season Vs2 average during this time frame is 133 and he was obviously by far the most dominant scorer in the league during his 20´s. Based on this I think that it is very likely that Bobrov would have had many more dominant seasons if he would have been able to play in his early 20´s too. As further "evidence" to support that theory Bobrov was the scoring champion in the Soviet Top League in Football/Soccer in his first season (and the first season played after the war) in 1945. Which in my opinion suggests that Bobrov already was starting to reach his physical peak at age 22. Perhaps even earlier as we have no way of knowing how good Bobrov would have been during the war years.

If we get back to hockey Bobrov started his 30´s with two partial seasons where he did not finish among the top scorers before he in 54/55 at age 32 finished 3rd in the scoring race only two goals from second place but far behind the runaway leader Guryshev who at that time was 29 years old. Even if Bobrovs domestic results started to tail off when he reached 30 he was still the Soviet Unions most reliable scorer and best forward internationally between 1954 and 1957. With that said I can´t help but wonder how well Bobrov could have done internationally at his peak (47/48-51/52) if the Soviets would have started competing internationally at that time.

I personally think that when it comes to pure talent Bobrov was on the same level as players like Firsov and Kharlamov. But because of the circumstances (playing his first full hockey season at age 25, playing his first international tournament at age 31 and playing in an era when Soviet hockey had not started to catch up with Canadian hockey) he obviously never reached the same high level as those players. What I mean is that if Bobrov would have been born 20 years later and been raised with the game of hockey I personally believe that he could have reached the level of Firsov and Kharlamov. I am aware that Bobrov had been raised with the game of bandy and that alot of the skills are transferable between the two sports like skating and stickhandling but I still find it quite obvious that Bobrov and the rest of his generation of Soviet hockey players would have been far better hockey players if they had they been raised with the game. On my list I had Bobrov in the 15-20 range but I honestly believe that he was talented enough to be a Top 5 player if the circumstances had been more favourable to him.

 

[Sanf]

I have list of 70 players now. So i´m positive that I´m able to send a list. I have been working with it 12 hours straight and I guess it would be good to have couple days to kind of think the list through. The players that I have most problem are the "secondary" Czech and Soviet players from the "Golden Era". Meaning players that weren´t really the absolute key players of the team. I know that people here love them, but I really don´t know what to do with them.

 

[VMBM]

The players that I have most problem are the "secondary" Czech and Soviet players from the "Golden Era". Meaning players that weren´t really the absolute key players of the team. I know that people here love them, but I really don´t know what to do with them.

Do you mean the likes of Kapustin, Shadrin, Shalimov, Vikulov, Lutchenko (USSR)... Kochta, Ebermann, Machac, Pouzar, Marian Stastny (CSSR)?

I had the Soviet players that I named comfortably on the list, but not those Czechoslovak players. I think the 'secondary' Soviet players were usually a fair step above those secondary Czechoslovak players, e.g. Kapustin was pretty close to a Czech star like Hlinka or Jiri Holik, even Novy, and no way I could leave those players off a top 50 list, let alone top 70.

 

[seventieslord]

If it is allowed, I name some notable players who did not make my (initial) list:

Yevgeny Babich
Alexey Guryshev
Veli-Pekka Ketola
Oldrich Machac
Bert-Olov (-"Ola") Nordlander
Lasse Oksanen
Ronald Pettersson
Viktor Shuvalov
Jorma Valtonen
Urpo Ylönen

There are many others too, but these were the most 'bitter' omissions for me.

Namely, since I placed Bobrov pretty high on my list, it might be somewhat inconsistent to not have contemporaries like Babich, Guryshev and Shuvalov on the list. But heck, I figured that there must be a genuine reason why Bobrov is a much bigger legend than any of those players.
Also, I had Nisse Nilsson quite high, so in that regard, maybe e.g. Pettersson and Nordlander should have made it too.
Ylönen's and Valtonen's international careers don't look any worse than Leif Holmqvist's, and yet I had Honken around 50ish and no Ylönen nor Valtonen... but maybe it was more of a case of overrating Holmqvist than underrating the Finnish goalies... as for other Finns, I just had to have Matti Hagman on the list; I simply couldn't stand the idea that there would be two Germans (Kühnhackl & Jaenecke) on my list and no Finns! Seriously speaking, I do think that Hagman was that talented and so think many other Finns too - just ask Jari Kurri.
It would have been pretty hard to justify Ketola and Oksanen on a to 70 list, but it was still bitter to leave them off.
Machac was actually considered better than Frantisek Pospisil in some late 1960s/early 1970s World Championships, and I placed Pospisil VERY high on the list. Maybe I should have found room for Machac too.

Many of those were bitter omissions for me as well!

And same thinking regarding Bobrov vs. his contemporaries.

 

[Sanf]

Do you mean the likes of Kapustin, Shadrin, Shalimov, Vikulov, Lutchenko (USSR)... Kochta, Ebermann, Machac, Pouzar, Marian Stastny (CSSR)?

I had the Soviet players that I named comfortably on the list, but not those Czechoslovak players. I think the 'secondary' Soviet players were usually a fair step above those secondary Czechoslovak players, e.g. Kapustin was pretty close to a Czech star like Hlinka or Jiri Holik, even Novy, and no way I could leave those players off a top 50 list, let alone top 70.

Well I ddn´t think of leaving them off from my list, but I really don´t know how to rank them. I started them pretty high but they kept falling. I´m going to throw Sterner example. I remember reading some Soviet text from late 60´s about preparing to WHC´s. Against Sweden it was mainly about Sterner and how to stop Sterner.

With Soviet team it´s hard to pick the individuals. Especially the sort of "secondary" players. They were part of excellent teams, but they were never the main threat. The key player to eliminate. The player who had the preasure of carrying the team on their shoulders. And when they played in stacked teams in domestic series too I have hard time to find the answers there either.

But the reason may be that I´m not very good at comparing players.

 

[DN28]

One thing that I feel sometimes gets forgotten when speaking about Bobrov is that he played his first full season at age 25 in 47/48 (Bobrov also played 1 game and scored 3 goals in 46/47 at age 24) and that he played in his first international tournament at age 31. The, along with Bobrov, most dominant Soviet scorer domestically Alexei Guryshev was for example two and a half years younger than Bobrov. Which may not sound like much but I personally think that Guryshev being able to play hockey during more years of his prime age is a part of the explanation why Guryshevs domestic scoring record is comparable to Bobrovs or even better than Bobrovs. Another reason is of course that Guryshev was a great scorer but I personally think that if hockey would have been taken up in the Soviet Union 5 years earlier Bobrovs domestic scoring record would have been ahead of Guryshevs.
During the time period when both players were in their 20´s at the same time (47/48-51/52) Bobrov completely dominated the scoring race. Guryshev should get credit for being a better scorer domestically in his 30´s (2 scoring titles) than Bobrov was though.

...

Also while Bobrov in his 30s didn´t have very good domestic results, he was still the main force on the national team. Russia didn´t start on WC 1953 because of Bobrov´s injury. Tarasov then couldn´t garantee the win. His 1st WC was in 1954 when he won IIHF´s best forward award, had most points on his team and won gold medal. I´m not sure about 1955, but in his last two WCs in 1956 and 1957 he was still the best scorer on that Soviet NT, i.e. still probably better than Guryshev (internationally at least).

 

[VMBM]

Well I ddn´t think of leaving them off from my list, but I really don´t know how to rank them. I started them pretty high but they kept falling. I´m going to throw Sterner example. I remember reading some Soviet text from late 60´s about preparing to WHC´s. Against Sweden it was mainly about Sterner and how to stop Sterner.

With Soviet team it´s hard to pick the individuals. Especially the sort of "secondary" players. They were part of excellent teams, but they were never the main threat. The key player to eliminate. The player who had the preasure of carrying the team on their shoulders. And when they played in stacked teams in domestic series too I have hard time to find the answers there either.

But the reason may be that I´m not very good at comparing players.

Fair enough, and I did have Sterner slightly above of all of the Soviet players that I mentioned in the previous post.
Don't know about Shadrin or Lutchenko, but at least Kapustin (1978, 1981 & 1982 WHCs), Vikulov (late 1960s, 1972 WHC) and Shalimov (1975 & 1982 WHCs) all played in a couple of World Championships where they were among the very key players - although usually playing with somewhat greater players and/or on a forward line that had a great chemistry, like Vikulov with Firsov, Kharlamov and/or Maltsev in the 1960s/early 1970s, Kapustin with Balderis in the late 1970s and together with Shepelev and Shalimov in 1981-82 (very good memories of that line), also Shalimov with Yakushev (and Shadrin) in the mid-1970s.

BTW, what's your opinion on Helmut Balderis? Do you consider him a "secondary player"? I already had to admit that I overrated him significantly, but I didn't bother to change my list even though I was offered a chance. I think that in a way he was the most dangerous Soviet player in 1977-78/79, although never as important to the team as Mikhailov and Petrov were back then.

 

[VMBM]

When watching the old clips (usually highlights), I definitely see some Firsov in Bobrov; skating, puckhandling... and he seemed to have good strength and was certainly not soft, even though the Penticton Vees did manage to contain him in the 1955 USSR-CAN game. For example, here Lasse Björn checks him after a breakaway (where Bobrov misses the net) and it's Björn that ends up on his butt and not Bobrov (1954 WHC).

The Soviet oldtimers (if generalized a bit) seem to consider Bobrov and Kharlamov as equals or near-equals and all of the rest (including Firsov and Makarov) well below them, which is not fully acceptable to me, of course.
You can see some of that in Leonid Trakhtenberg and Anatoly Bochinin's "Golden Lines of Soviet Hockey" list on a Chidlovski site:
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/liners/segold.htm

Maybe this is old news, but there is an one hour long Swedish documentary on the 1954 World Championships on YouTube -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkigcZ0Fu9o. I haven't had the time to watch it fully yet, but seems pretty ok. And you just gotta love the music and the 'light' narrating style in these old documentaries!
Of course, you can find highlight clips of some of the games played in the tournament elsewhere too.

 

[Theokritos]

Based on this I think that it is very likely that Bobrov would have had many more dominant seasons if he would have been able to play in his early 20´s too. As further "evidence" to support that theory Bobrov was the scoring champion in the Soviet Top League in Football/Soccer in his first season (and the first season played after the war) in 1945. Which in my opinion suggests that Bobrov already was starting to reach his physical peak at age 22. Perhaps even earlier as we have no way of knowing how good Bobrov would have been during the war years.

There was at least some football and bandy played in the Soviet Union during the war. After the German invasion in June 1941 the factory Bobrov (then 18 years of age) worked at was moved from Leningrad to Siberia (near Omsk, to be specific) with all its staff. According to the biography by Anatoly Salutsky it was in Omsk where Bobrov really started to shine (in both bandy and soccer). His bandy routine of picking up the ball from his own goalie, going end-to-end through the opposing team and finish the play with a goal was the "talk of the town" in 1941-42 according to Salutsky. But of course it's problematic to draw conclusions from that since the level of competition at Omsk is a complete question mark to us.
However, Salutsky also says that Bobrov was a standout when he joined the Red Army bandy team in Moscow in 1944. He quotes Boris Arkadyev (who was in charge of the Red Army soccer team at that time):

"I came to the first training session of the hockey team to look at the newcomer, and what I saw amazed me. First of all, I saw that the newcomer, joining the champions club of the country, did not feel he was put to test but kept calm and confident, both in the locker room and on the ice. I immediately understood: this was a true, god-given talent and master of the individual game. Bobrov's ability to go through the opposing defence with his fast stickhandling was just amazing... And once the hockey season had begun, everybody was talking about the emergence of a new hockey 'star' of unprecedented greatness."

 

[Killion]

There was at least some football and bandy played in the Soviet Union during the war...

Isnt that fascinating. I dont think Ive ever read or even come across much more than snippets about sport, Bandy or Football in the Soviet Union during WW2. Just bits & pieces here & there. Sounds like a book waiting to be written. Tarasov's bio touches on it, elsewhere, just nothing really in-depth.

 

[Theokritos]

Isnt that fascinating. I dont think Ive ever read or even come across much more than snippets about sport, Bandy or Football in the Soviet Union during WW2. Just bits & pieces here & there. Sounds like a book waiting to be written. Tarasov's bio touches on it, elsewhere, just nothing really in-depth.

A bit more from Salutsky:

"But even in these difficult first months of the war the sport was not dead. At the beginning of the winter three hockey games were played in Moscow. Their conduct was announced in advance, but on the appointed day the matches were moved to other places – to the Patriarch Pond, the Clean Pond and the pond near the Novodevichy Convent. This was done intentionally to avoid the gathering of spectators, because Moscow was subjected to aerial bombardment. In one word, there were almost no fans present. But the games were broadcasted on All-Union Radio and this was the main point of the hockey competitions. They had to demonstrate to the country, to the soldiers at the front and the partisans who fought in the enemy's rear that life in the capital was going well and the sport was always (and especially during the war) a good symbol: if Moscow still hosts hockey matches, well then the enemy can't be near the capital yet!"

Original:
Но даже в эти труднейшие первые месяцы войны спорт не умер. В начале зимы в Москве состоялись три хоккейных матча. Об их проведении было объявлено заранее, однако в назначенный день матчи перенесли в другие места – на Патриаршие пруды, на Чистые и на пруд около Новодевичьего монастыря. Это сделали умышленно, чтобы избежать скопления зрителей, потому что Москва подвергалась воздушным бомбардировкам. Короче говоря, на матчах болельщиков практически не было. Зато репортажи об этих играх транслировались по Всесоюзному радио – в этом и состоял главный смысл хоккейных состязаний. Они должны были продемонстрировать всей стране, всем бойцам на фронте и партизанам, сражавшимся во вражеском тылу, что жизнь в столице идет нормально, ибо спорт всегда, а в годы войны особенно, был добрым символом: если в Москве проходят хоккейные матчи, значит, врага к столице не допустили!

Another purpose:

"In Omsk, as in all other cities of the Urals and Siberia where plants were transfered to from the center of Russia and Ukraine, sporting events were immediately resumed, first and foremost of course soccer and bandy, the most spectacular and most popular games. At that difficult time sport was needed not only and not so much by those playing it but by the millions of fans for whom it was perhaps the only opportunity for public recreation and fun."

Original:
В Омске, как во всех других уральских и сибирских городах, куда эвакуировали заводы из центра России, с Украины, сразу же возобновились спортивные соревнования, в первую очередь, конечно, футбольные и хоккейные матчи, как наиболее зрелищные и самые любимые народом игры. Потому что спорт в то нелегкое время нужен был не только и не столько самим играющим, сколько миллионам болельщиков, пожалуй, как единственная возможность для массового отдыха, для развлечения.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Isnt that fascinating. I dont think Ive ever read or even come across much more than snippets about sport, Bandy or Football in the Soviet Union during WW2. Just bits & pieces here & there. Sounds like a book waiting to be written. Tarasov's bio touches on it, elsewhere, just nothing really in-depth.

Very little to my knowledge have been published on the early years of Russian/Soviet, bandy/hockey.
What I find fascinating is that St.Petersburg Eislaufverein had yearbooks going back to 1899 with "season-in-review" summaries of their bandy activities.

British entrepeneurs brought bandy to Moscow and St.Petersburg in the 1850s.
The first Russian public skating rink was opened in 1865 (in St.Petersburg), and it is a well-known fact that the Russian Czar loved to play the game and it was frequently played by the Royalties at the Winter Palace Grounds in the 1860s.
The earliest photo that I have of the Royal family with skates and hockey/bandy sticks dates back to 1884.

In 1880 there were nine ice skating rinks operating in St.Petersburg and in 1888 they wrote the first rules in Russian.
Many games were played before the turn of the century, but I believe it wasn't until 1905/06 that the first league season was played.

St.Petersburg had great bandy teams before WW I, unfortunately many of the players were killed in the Russian revolution, putting an end to a great era of Russian bandy. Now that would be an interesting book. (I apologize for being a bit off-topic)

 

[Batis]

There was at least some football and bandy played in the Soviet Union during the war. After the German invasion in June 1941 the factory Bobrov (then 18 years of age) worked at was moved from Leningrad to Siberia (near Omsk, to be specific) with all its staff. According to the biography by Anatoly Salutsky it was in Omsk where Bobrov really started to shine (in both bandy and soccer). His bandy routine of picking up the ball from his own goalie, going end-to-end through the opposing team and finish the play with a goal was the "talk of the town" in 1941-42 according to Salutsky. But of course it's problematic to draw conclusions from that since the level of competition at Omsk is a complete question mark to us.
However, Salutsky also says that Bobrov was a standout when he joined the Red Army bandy team in Moscow in 1944. He quotes Boris Arkadyev (who was in charge of the Red Army soccer team at that time):

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this. Bobrov truly was a remarkable athlete.

In 1999 Russian sport journalists had a poll to determine the greatest Russian athletes of the century. Bobrov finished in third place behind only Lev Yashin and Alexander Karelin. Of course Bobrovs high ranking in that poll was not only due to his hockey career but rather his entire body of work in football, hockey and bandy. But it is still very impressive to be voted the third greatest athlete of all time in a country as great at sports as Russia. I have not managed to find anymore information than the top 3 in the voting but it would be really interesting to see the full voting results of this poll to see how the hockeyplayers ranked.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/sitem...ussias-sports-star-of-the-century/268324.html

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

In 1999 Russian sport journalists had a poll to determine the greatest Russian athletes of the century. Bobrov finished in third place behind only Lev Yashin and Alexander Karelin...

I have not managed to find anymore information than the top 3 in the voting but it would be really interesting to see the full voting results of this poll to see how the hockeyplayers ranked.

The poll was made 500 days before the start of the summer Olympics in Sydney among the readers of "СЭ"and "СЭ ВОСКРЕСЕНЬЯ". It was made in partnership with the Russian Olympic Committee, Coca-Cola and Reebok.

The first round of voting looked like this:

1. Lev Yashin (football/soccer) 2524 votes
2. Aleksander Karelin (Greco-Roman wrestling) 2489
3. Vladislav Tretiak (ice hockey) 2277
4. Garry Kasparov (chess) 2054
5. Valeri Kharlamov (ice hockey) 1838
6. Vladimir Salnikov (swimming) 1830
7. Aleksander Tikhonov (Biathlon) 1826
8. Evgeny Kafelnikov (tennis) 1822
9. Valeri Brumel (athletics) 1796
10. Eduard Streltsov (football/soccer) 1785
11. Vasili Alexeev (weightlifting) 1594
12. Ivan Yarygin (Freestyle) 1577
13. Aleksander Popov (swimming) 1365
14. Aleksander Belov (basketball) 1361
15. Vsevolod Bobrov (ice hockey) 1251
16-17. Pavel Bure (ice hockey) 1169
16-17. Yuri Vlasov (weightlifting) 1169
18. Vladimir Kuts (athletics) 1132
19. Nikolai Andrianov (Gymnastics) 1088
20. Vyacheslav Fetisov (ice hockey) 1063

 

[Killion]

St.Petersburg had great bandy teams before WW I, unfortunately many of the players were killed in the Russian revolution, putting an end to a great era of Russian bandy. Now that would be an interesting book. (I apologize for being a bit off-topic)

Oh no no, not at all off-topic, gives a rich context/tapestry to the subject & thread. Thanks also Theo. Gotta look that book up..... Just based on the few crumbs you guys have tossed out, it almost sounds like Bandy, like early organized hockey in Canada was played primarily by the Gentry. Upper middle classes, university students, in Russia including the Royal Family. A Gentlemans Game... Interesting as well that the Soviets despite being absolutely pummeled by the Nazi bombings & ultimately Blitzkrieg did utilize sport, Bandy as a civilian & military morale booster, to the point of playing games that could well have ended in turning frozen ice surfaces into seas of fire, death & destruction; broadcasting those games. Rather stark difference to North America & specifically the NHL though there are some parallels, similarities to the whole issue of playing during wartime. Youve got to imagine that if long range Bombers or the German missile program was such that their rockets were capable of reaching New York & elsewhere, theres absolutely no way the NHL wouldve been operating between 1941 & 1945. Not even to empty buildings (nor would they as they were solely reliant on gate receipts) with the games broadcast. I just cant see it. That took some guts, what the Soviets were doing there.

 

[Batis]

The poll was made 500 days before the start of the summer Olympics in Sydney among the readers of "СЭ"and "СЭ ВОСКРЕСЕНЬЯ". It was made in partnership with the Russian Olympic Committee, Coca-Cola and Reebok.

The first round of voting looked like this:

1. Lev Yashin (football/soccer) 2524 votes
2. Aleksander Karelin (Greco-Roman wrestling) 2489
3. Vladislav Tretiak (ice hockey) 2277
4. Garry Kasparov (chess) 2054
5. Valeri Kharlamov (ice hockey) 1838
6. Vladimir Salnikov (swimming) 1830
7. Aleksander Tikhonov (Biathlon) 1826
8. Evgeny Kafelnikov (tennis) 1822
9. Valeri Brumel (athletics) 1796
10. Eduard Streltsov (football/soccer) 1785
11. Vasili Alexeev (weightlifting) 1594
12. Ivan Yarygin (Freestyle) 1577
13. Aleksander Popov (swimming) 1365
14. Aleksander Belov (basketball) 1361
15. Vsevolod Bobrov (ice hockey) 1251
16-17. Pavel Bure (ice hockey) 1169
16-17. Yuri Vlasov (weightlifting) 1169
18. Vladimir Kuts (athletics) 1132
19. Nikolai Andrianov (Gymnastics) 1088
20. Vyacheslav Fetisov (ice hockey) 1063

Thank you for this. So there was a second round of voting also? I ask this because the article that was posted shortly after the poll said that Bobrov finished 3rd while he finished 15th in what you said was the first round of voting.

 

[Theokritos]

Thanks also Theo. Gotta look that book up.....

The one by Salutsky? It's in Russian and I'm afraid there is no English version out there.

 

[Theokritos]

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this. Bobrov truly was a remarkable athlete.

Also anecdotal, but interesting:

Boris Mikhailov:
"At CSKA it had been the practice to stage periodical matches between the junior team and veterans. And for one time in my life I got to play against Vsevolod Bobrov. It was a great experience. Apart from him, there were many famous masters playing for the veterans – Aleksandr Vinogradov, Viktor Shuvalov and many other World Champions. Of course the juniors lost, 6-14. It was understandable, but I was struck by the skill of Vsevolod Mikhailovich [Bobrov] who scored six or seven goals. It was then that I grasped why he had no equal – brilliant skating, despite the injuries and age; great technique and unsurpassed handling of the stick which he alone on the planet was able to move from hand to hand."

Two remarks:
-Mikhailov's claim that no-one else was ever ambidextrous and could use both of his hands is wrong (Gordie Howe is an obvious counter-example), but it's certainly a rare capacity.
-Mikhailov did not play junior hockey for CSKA as he only joined the Army team when he was 22. Therefore we have to assume that he played for the junior team as a reinforcement player from the senior ranks. The earliest possible date for the game would have been the 1967 off-season when Mikhailov came to CSKA. At that time Bobrov was 44 years old & 10 years retired from playing hockey.

 

[Sanf]

Fair enough, and I did have Sterner slightly above of all of the Soviet players that I mentioned in the previous post.
Don't know about Shadrin or Lutchenko, but at least Kapustin (1978, 1981 & 1982 WHCs), Vikulov (late 1960s, 1972 WHC) and Shalimov (1975 & 1982 WHCs) all played in a couple of World Championships where they were among the very key players - although usually playing with somewhat greater players and/or on a forward line that had a great chemistry, like Vikulov with Firsov, Kharlamov and/or Maltsev in the 1960s/early 1970s, Kapustin with Balderis in the late 1970s and together with Shepelev and Shalimov in 1981-82 (very good memories of that line), also Shalimov with Yakushev (and Shadrin) in the mid-1970s.

BTW, what's your opinion on Helmut Balderis? Do you consider him a "secondary player"? I already had to admit that I overrated him significantly, but I didn't bother to change my list even though I was offered a chance. I think that in a way he was the most dangerous Soviet player in 1977-78/79, although never as important to the team as Mikhailov and Petrov were back then.

Well he is more borderline case. I agree that he was for short period of time more of key player to put to the "secondary" player category. At the end I raised few of those players on the list with sort of "eye-test" reasoning.

This was horrible task . I had 150 player "list" going in to sunday. I have never been much of list maker and I had to try to create opinions on so many things that I have never really think of. I´m glad that someone takes look on my list. Just yesterday i noticed that I didn´t have Sologubov in my list and just 10 minutes ago cleared extra Starshinov. Some players just seemed to travel on the list when I cut/pasted other players and every once in a while I noticed that for example Maltsev was dropped out of top 50.

I guess it becomes bit easier when you have smaller group to compare.

 

[Killion]

The one by Salutsky? It's in Russian and I'm afraid there is no English version out there.

.... wonderful.