HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[Theokritos]

1. Eligibility and Ranking Criteria
   • Players should be ranked based on their overall accomplishments, including their time in the NHL (or WHA) if they played there. A "non-NHL player" is not to be understood as someone who didn't play in the NHL (or WHA) at all or whose resume there doesn't matter at all, but as a player who arguably spent the more significant part of his career outside of the NHL (or WHA).
   • All eligible players are listed here.
   • Players should be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players.
   • Eligible players who are still active should be ranked based only on what they have already done.
2. Preliminary Discussion Thread
   • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not take part in the voting.
   • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists.
   • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of voting.
   • Please do not rank players outright in the preliminary thread. We don't want voters to just copy the lists or rankings of others.
3. Voting
   • Round 1
     • All participants submit a list of 70 players ranked in order. This is mandatory if you want to be eligible for Round 2. Lists may be submitted via PM to Theokritos, starting on Sept 15. Deadline is Sept 30. New deadline is October 7. Ballots will be accepted until the end of vote 1. Please PM Theokritos if you would like to participate and are unable to submit your list during this time frame.
     • All eras must be taken into consideration. There is some room for reasonable differences in weighting, but it's not acceptable to omit everybody who played in the 1950s or earlier, or to have only players from the 1980s and 1990s in your top 10.
     • Likewise all significant hockey nations in Europe should be taken into consideration. Lists with a national bias beyond reasonable justification are not acceptable.
     • The time frame for voting (both the date when we will start accepting lists and the voting deadline) will be posted here once it is determined.
     • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking. A 1st place vote is worth 70 points, a 2nd place vote 69 points and so on down to 1 point for a 70th place vote.
     • An aggregate list of the top players will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points.
   • Round 2
     • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread. This number will slowly increase up to 14 players as we get into later rounds.
     • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias.
     • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
     • Final voting will occur for two days, via PM.
     • Participants rank their top 10 players every round. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc.
     • Ordinarily the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list after each of the first five votes. However, if there are major breaks in the voting totals, we will add more or less than then 4 in certain rounds. After vote five we will ordinarily add 5 players per vote until the final list is complete.
     • Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.
4. Quality Assurance
   • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process.
   • The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit.
   • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project.
5. Participants Code of Conduct
   • Participants must recognize that this is a collaborative project and that we all share the same goals, no matter how much we disagree on individual ranking.
   • Participants should treat each other with respect and must not openly question the motivations of other participants.
   • Repeatedly violating these rules may result in ban from this project and possibly similar future projects on the History of Hockey board.

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

Eligible players

1) Every European who never played in the NHL or WHA,

plus

2) the following players who spent some time in the NHL or WHA:

-Helmuts Balderis: had a very late guest stint in the NHL. Clearly a non-NHL player overall.
-Jiří Bubla: was 31 when he came to North America.
-Anders Carlsson: three seasons in the NHL/AHL, rest of his career in Europe. Don't think he's going to come up though.
-Roman Čechmánek: four seasons in North America.
-František Černík: one season in the NHL. Doesn't have a shot realistically anyway.
-Milan Chalupa: one season in North America.
-Jiří Crha: four seasons in North America.
-Miroslav Dvořák: same as Bubla.
-Anders Eldebrink: two seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Vyacheslav Fetisov: was 31 when he came to the NHL.
-Aleksey Gusarov: 26 when he went to North America, a borderline case but we're inclusive here.
-Matti Hagman: four seasons in North America.
-Raimo Helminen: three seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Ivan Hlinka: 31 when he came over, two seasons in the NHL.
-Leif Holmqvist: one season in the WHA.
-Jiří Hrdina: basically four seasons in the NHL, was 30 when he came over.
-Kari Jalonen: two seasons in North America.
-Jaroslav Jiřík: one season in North America.
-Jörgen Jönsson: one season in the NHL, rest of his career in Europe.
-Valery Kamensky: long NHL career beginning in his 20s, but only after a significant injury suffered in 1991.
-Aleksey Kasatonov: came over when he was 30, best years in Europe.
-Veli-Pekka Ketola: four seasons in the WHA and NHL.
-Vladimir Krutov: not much of a career in North America.
-Igor Larionov: lengthy NHL career, but only came over when he was 29.
-Igor Liba: one season in the NHL.
-HÃ¥kan Loob: six seasons in the NHL in his 20s make him a borderline pick in terms of eligibility, but international resume trumps NHL career.
-Tord Lundström: only a few games in the NHL.
-Sergey Makarov: European career clearly tops NHL career.
-Aleksey Morozov: his best years were in Russia.
-Jarmo Myllys: four seasons in the NHL/IHL.
-Václav Nedomanský: was 30 when he came to North America.
-Milan Nový: a single season in the NHL once he had turned 31.
-Petteri Nummelin: three seasons in the NHL.
-Dušan Pašek: two seasons in North America.
-Ville Peltonen: quite some prime time in the NHL, but his European career is more impressive.
-Jaroslav Pouzar: three seasons and a half in the NHL.
-Aleksandr Radulov: like Morozov.
-Pekka Rautakallio: five seasons in North America, more in Europe.
-Vladimír Růžička: five seasons in the NHL (not all of them full seasons), a lot more in Czechoslovakia resp. the Czech Republic.
-Lars-Erik Sjöberg: only came over when he was 30.
-Marián Šťastný: five seasons in the NHL after coming over to North America at 27 years of age. A little too late to consider him an NHL player for the purpose of this project.
-Ulf Sterner: one season in North America.
-Mikhail Tatarinov: career in the NHL cut short by injuries.

EDIT: List is presumably finished. If you have a case for any player not on the list, post it in this thread.

*Not in THIS thread (Preliminary & General Discussion), but the one the quote is from.

 

[Theokritos]

A lot of stats and voting records relevant for the project can be found in the the "International & European Reference" thread.

 

[Theokritos]

Video footage of interest:

1972 Summit Series:
Canada vs. USSR 3-7, part 1, part 2
Canada vs. USSR 4-1, part 1 , part 2
Canada vs. USSR 4-4, part 1, part 2
Canada vs. USSR 3-5, part 1, part 2
USSR vs. Canada 5-4, part 1, part 2
USSR vs. Canada 2-3, part 1, part 2
USSR vs. Canada 3-4, part 1, part 2
USSR vs. Canada 5-6, part 1, part 2

Canada vs. Sweden 4-4
Canada vs. Czechoslovakia 3-3

1974 Summit Series:
Canada vs. USSR 3-3, period 1, period 2, period 3
Canada vs. USSR 4-1, period 1, period 2, period 3
Canada vs. USSR 5-8, period 1, period 2, period 3
Canada vs. USSR 5-5, period 1, period 2, period 3
USSR vs. Canada 3-2, period 2, period 3
USSR vs. Canada 5-2, period 1, period 2, period 3
USSR vs. Canada 4-4, period 1, period 2, period 3
USSR vs. Canada 3-2, period 1, period 2, period 3

Canada Cups

1976 CC

Round-robin:
Czechoslovakia vs. USSR 5-3 (gets watchable at 28:20)
USSR vs. Sweden 4-4
Canada vs. USA 4-2
Canada vs. Sweden 4-0
Czechoslovakia vs. Canada 1-0
Canada vs. USSR 3-1
Final:
Game 1, Canada vs. Czecoslovakia 6-0
Game 2, Canada vs. Czechoslovakia 5-4 OT

1981 CC

Round-robin:
Canada vs. Finland 9-0
USSR vs. USA 4-1
Canada vs. Czechoslovakia 4-4, periods 1 & 2, period 3
Canada vs. Sweden 4-3
Canada vs. USSR 7-3
Semi-final:
USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 4-1
Canada vs. USA 4-1
Final:
USSR vs. Canada 8-1

1984 CC

Round-robin:
USSR vs. Sweden 3-2
USSR vs. USA 2-1
USSR vs. West Germany 8-1
USSR vs. Canada 6-3
Semi-final:
Canada vs. USSR 3-2 OT, part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6
Final:
Game 1, Canada vs. Sweden 5-2, part 1
Game 2, Canada vs. Sweden 6-5, part 1

1987 CC

Round-robin:
USSR vs. Finland 7-4
Canada vs. Czechoslovakia 4-4, part 1
Sweden vs. USSR 5-3
Czechoslovakia vs. Finland 5-2, part 1
USSR vs. USA 5-1
Semi-final:
USSR vs. Sweden 4-2
Final:
Game 1, USSR vs. Canada 6-5 OT
Game 2, Canada vs. USSR 6-5 OT
Game 3, Canada vs. USSR 6-5

World Championships & Winter Olympics:

1954 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 5-2, highlights
1954 WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 1-1, highlights
1954 WHC, Canada vs. USSR 2-7, highlights

1955 WHC, Canada vs. USSR 5-0

1959 WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. Canada 5-3, highlights

1960 Olympics/WHC, USA vs. USSR 3-2

1961 WHC, Canada vs. USSR 5-1, highlights

1964 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. Canada 3-2

1967 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 2-1
1967 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 4-2

1968 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. Finland 8-0, 30 minutes or so
1968 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. USA 10-2
1968 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. West Germany 9-1
1968 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 3-2
1968 Olympics/WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. USSR 5-4, some highlights
1968 Olympics/WHC, USSR vs. Canada 5-0


1969 WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. USSR 2-0
1969 WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 3-2
1969 WHC, Sweden vs. Czechoslovakia 1-0

1970 WHC, Finland vs. Sweden 3-1
1970 WHC, Sweden vs. USSR 4-2
1970 WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. Sweden 2-2
1970 WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 3-1

1976 Olympics, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 4-3

1976 WHC, Poland vs. USSR 6-4

1977 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 11-1
1977 WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. USSR 4-3
1977 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 8-1

1978 World Junior Championships, USSR vs. Canada 3-2

1978 European U18 Championships, Finland vs. USSR 6-5 OT

1978 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 4-2
1978 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 3-1, highlights

1979 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 6-1

1980 Pre-Olympics game, Czechoslovakia vs. Canada 5-1
1980 Pre-Olympics game, USSR vs. USA 10-3

1980 Olympics, USSR vs. Canada 6-4
1980 Olympics, USA vs. USSR 4-3 (not quite the full game, even though the poster claims so)
1980 Olympics, USSR vs. Sweden 9-2, periods 1 & 2, period 3

1981 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 8-2
1981 WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 13-1, highlights

1982 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 4-3
1982 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 6-4

1983 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 8-2 (final round)

1984 Olympics, Sweden vs. Canada 2-0
1984 Olympics, USSR vs. Canada 4-0
1984 Olympics, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 2-0

1985 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 5-1, part 1
1985 WHC, Czechoslovakia vs. USSR 2-1 (final round)

1986 WHC, USSR vs. West Germany 4-1, part 1
1986 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 4-2, part 1
1986 WHC, USSR vs. Canada 7-4, part 1
1986 WHC, USSR vs. Sweden 3-2, part 1

1987 WHC, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 6-1

1988 Olympics, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia 6-1
1988 Olympics, USSR vs. Canada 5-0
1988 Olympics, USSR vs. Sweden 7-1
1988 Olympics, Finland vs. USSR 2-1


NHL vs. the Soviets

1975-76 Super Series

CSKA vs. NY Rangers 7-3
Montreal Canadiens vs. CSKA 3-3
CSKA vs. Boston Bruins 5-2, part 1, part 2

Buffalo Sabres vs. Krylya Sovetov 12-6

Couldn't find the full Flyers vs. CSKA game.

1979-80 Super series
Montreal Canadiens vs. CSKA 4-2
Buffalo Sabres vs. CSKA 6-1
CSKA vs. Quebec Nordiques 6-4

1982-83 Super Series

Edmonton Oilers vs. USSR 4-3
USSR vs. Montreal Canadiens 5-0
Calgary Flames vs. USSR 3-2
USSR vs. Minnesota North Stars 6-3
USSR vs. Philadelphia Flyers 5-1

1985-86 Super Series

CSKA vs. Edmonton Oilers 6-3
Quebec Nordiques vs. CSKA 5-1
CSKA vs. Montreal Canadiens 6-1

Dynamo Moscow vs. Boston Bruins 6-4

1988-89 Super Series
CSKA vs. Hartford Whalers 6-3, part 1
Buffalo Sabres vs. CSKA 6-5 OT

1979 Challenge Cup

Game 1, NHL All-Stars vs. USSR 4-2
Game 2, USSR vs. NHL All-Stars 5-4
Game 3, USSR vs. NHL All-Stars 6-0


Documentaries

Soviet hockey:
CCCP hockey (The Green Unit & Tikhonov)
Валерий Харламов. Поколение победителей [2004]"Valeri Kharlamov. Generation of Winners"

Czechoslovak hockey:
Milujeme hokej
Hokej v srdci - Srdce v hokeji (2003)

----

Some notable 'YouTubers':

Dimitry Novgorod (tons of old & new hockey games)
MrVasilenkoK (mostly international/Super series games from 1970s/1980s)
ильдар гатин (lots of old sports/hockey videos)
спорт- -точка.рф

 

[johan f]

Where do we vote?

I want to vote for Mats Ã…hlberg anyhow. Or Mats Waltin. Haven't made up my mind yet :O)

 

[Theokritos]

Where do we vote?

It's right in the OP. Point 3, "voting".

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's right in the OP. Point 3, "voting".

Suggestion - open Round 1 voting in mid September, deadline in early/mid October.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

World Championship results by nation and the development of European hockey

This helps me get a broader sense of the types of players to include before getting into individuals. I like looking at the WCs, because they are held almost every year, so we get a decent sample size. Also, through 1968, the Winter Olympics counted at the World Championship for that year, so this includes all the Olympic games before 1972.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IIHF_World_Championship_medalists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_World_Championships

Before WW2

Canada dominates, winning all but 2 Gold Medals (won by the US and Great Britain). This is not anything close to a modern Canadian roster of NHL quality players, but amateur players instead.

Are there any Europeans from this period worth including on our list? I know Joe Pelletier and Patrick Houda like Jozef Malecek a lot, but Czechoslovakia won a mere 2 bronzes at the Worlds. Any players from Great Britain worth including? 2nd best team at the time (after Canadian non-NHLers) seemed to be a competition between Great Britain and the United States.

1947-1949

Czechoslovakia wins 2 Golds, 1 Silver (to Canadian non-NHLers). Very short time period, but after 1949, the team was decimated, first by a plane crash, then by a purge by the Communists. Makes me think Vladimir Zabrodsky, the Czech star at the time, deserves a look.

1950-1953

Kind of a transition period. Canadian non-NHLers win 3 straight gold medals, then don't even bother to send a team in 1953 (which Sweden wins)).

1954-1962

The USSR debuts in 1954 and wins gold immediately, beating Canada. Overall records during this time:

Canada: 4 Gold, 3 Silver, 1 Bronze
USSR: 2 Gold, 4 Silver, 2 Bronze
Sweden: 2 Gold, 0 Silver, 3 Bronze (also won Gold in 1953)
USA: 1 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze
Czechoslovakia: 0 Gold, 1 Silver, 3 Bronze

The first generation USSR was competitive with the teams of amateurs Canada sent over, and Sweden became competitive with them for the first time. But neither team was able to dominate them yet.

I'd say the true stars of the USSR and Sweden of this era (Bobrov and Tumba, are there more? Sologubov and Sterner?) deserve a look at least.

1963-1991 - the Golden era of non-NHL Europeans

Almost overnight, the USSR began to flat out dominate, as the Firsov-led generation came into their own. The USSR won 9 straight Gold medals from 1963-1971. And then in 1972 came the Summit Series, the first time a European National Team played against a team full of NHLers.

In 1970, Canada withdrew from the WCs because they felt their amateurs could no longer compete with the top European players. They only returned in 1976 when NHL players whose teams missed the playoffs could begin to compete in the WCs.

Useful link on the development of Soviet hockey:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=689597
The above link shows the USSR with a 3-7 record vs Canada from 1954-1961 and a 39-7-3 record vs Canada from 1963-1970.

Useful link on the development of Czechoslovak hockey:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=688408
Link shows that beginning in 1966, Czechoslovakia was competitive against the Soviets, with a 12-11 record against them from 1966-1972, though Czechoslovakia had losses to other European teams that the USSR dominated.

There is a clear hierarchy of the top international teams during this period:

USSR: 20 Gold, 3 Silver, 3 Bronze
Czechoslovakia: 4 Gold, 10 Silver, 9 Bronze (3 Gold, 5 Silver, 1 Bronze from 1971-1979)
Sweden: 2 Gold, 10 Silver, 7 Bronze (2 Gold, 2 Silver, 1 NM 1986-1991. Also medalled every year from 1992-1995 - contributions of non-NHLers or NHLers?)
Canada (amateurs 1963-1970, mixed teams 1976-1991): 0 Gold, 3 Silver, 7 Bronze

No other country won a WC medal during this period. Finland's first ever medal (silver) wouldn't be until 1992.

1992-present

At this time, virtually all the world's best players are in the NHL. Any non-NHLers worth looking at? I guess some people will consider a couple of KHL stars; not sure I'll have room for them.

___________________________________________________

Applying it to creating a list of the best non-NHL Europeans

How this could be helpful to look at things. For me, dividing up the candidates into 6 categories will help make it so I don't forget to look at important players.

• 1963-1991 USSR players - by a wide margin, the biggest group
• 1963-1991 CSSR (Czechoslovakia) players - likely the next biggest group, with a major emphasis on the strong 1970s teams
• 1963-1991 Sweden - definitely needs some representation, though with more NHL crossover than CSSR, they won't be nearly as represented on our list, I don't think.
• pre-1963 hockey - definitely needs some representation, in particular the true stars of the 1950s USSR and Sweden, and perhaps the late 1940s Czechoslovaks. Plus any other true standouts without the team success. At this time, I'm not sure whether this group will be bigger or smaller than 1963-1991 Sweden.
• 1963-1991 other nations. True standouts from nations other than USSR, CSSR, and Sweden are likely few and far between, but the few there are should be seriously looked at.
• 1992-present - anyone worth including?

 

[steve141]

I noticed that there was no mention of the Swedish All Star Team voting in the European Reference thread, so I added tables with all Swedish All Star Teams since 1958.


Players who have been elected to the Swedish All-Star Team the most times*

Player | Position | Times elected | Years
Tord Lundström|F|8 times|1965, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1976
Leif Holmqvist|G|7 times|1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971
Ulf Sterner|F|6 times|1961, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1967, 1969
Mats Sundin|F|6 times|1991, 1992, 1994, 1997, 1998, 2002
Lennart Svedberg|D|6 times|1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971
Bert-Olov Nordlander|D|6 times|1961, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1969, 1971
Johan Davidsson|F|5 times|2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010
Anders Eldebrink|D|5 times|1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989
Peter Forsberg|F|5 times|1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1998
Peter Lindmark|G|5 times|1981, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988
HÃ¥kan Loob|F|5 times|1983, 1985, 1990, 1991, 1992
Nils Nilsson|F|5 times|1959, 1960, 1962, 1965, 1967
Mats Näslund|F|5 times|1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983
Ronald Pettersson|F|5 times|1959, 1960, 1962, 1965, 1966
Roland Stoltz|D|5 times|1959, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1966
Thomas Eriksson|D|4 times|1980, 1983, 1990, 1991
Tomas Jonsson|D|4 times|1979, 1980, 1990, 1995
Nicklas Lidström|D|4 times|1991, 1997, 1998, 2000
Rolf Ridderwall|G|4 times|1984, 1989, 1990, 1991
Thomas Rundqvist|F|4 times|1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Tommy Salo|G|4 times|1997, 1998, 1999, 2002
Mats Ã…hlberg|F|4 times|1973, 1974, 1975, 1977

*Note that the voting started in 1958/59. If the All Star Team had existed through-out the 50s, players like Stoltz, Bjorn and Tumba surely would have been selected several more times.

 

[steve141]

I'd say the true stars of the USSR and Sweden of this era (Bobrov and Tumba, are there more? Sologubov and Sterner?) deserve a look at least.

I'd look at Lasse Björn and Roland Stoltz from the 50s era Swedes as well.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Before WW2

Are there any Europeans from this period worth including on our list?

Most definitely. In my opinion I would say that approximately 25% of the top 70 European players were from this era. They will clearly be at a disadvantage when lists are made, simply because people don't know enough about them and what they accomplished. The first 50 years of European hockey had its stars, very much as the next 50 years. Contemporary newspapers, journalists and fans saw the star players of that time in the same light as we see them today, or in the 1960s, 70s and so on.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Most definitely. In my opinion I would say that approximately 25% of the top 70 European players were from this era. They will clearly be at a disadvantage when lists are made, simply because people don't know enough about them and what they accomplished. The first 50 years of European hockey had its stars, very much as the next 50 years. Contemporary newspapers, journalists and fans saw the star players of that time in the same light as we see them today, or in the 1960s, 70s and so on.

Approximately 25% of the top 70 from before WW2 seems outrageously high, considering that their national teams of the era were clearly inferior to the teams Canada sent over, which again, were composed of amateurs at a time when all the best Canadians were in the NHL.

I don't doubt that some contemporary home country papers without a good frame of reference may have tried to paint their stars as of similar quality to NHL stars.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Approximately 25% of the top 70 from before WW2 seems outrageously high, considering that their national teams of the era were clearly inferior to the teams Canada sent over, that I believe were filled with players not even good enough for the AHL, let alone NHL.

I don't doubt that some contemporary home country papers without a good frame of reference may have tried to paint their stars as of similar quality to NHL stars.

Agreed I can't think of any players from that time frame that instantly come to mind in a list like this.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Awards at the World Championships 1954-1991

Included is every player who was named in more than one year.

Directorate Best Goaltender, Best Defense, and Best Forward awards were created in 1954.

All-Star Teams were created in 1961

Goaltenders

Jiri Holecek (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
• All Star Goaltender (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Vladimir Tretiak (USSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1974, 1979, 1983)
• All Star Goaltender (1975, 1979, 1983)

Peter Lindmark (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1981, 1986)
• All Star Goaltender (1981, 1986)

Jiri Kralik (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1982, 1985)
• All Star Goaltender (1982, 1985)

Vladimir Dzurilla

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1965)
• All Star Goaltender (1965, 1969)

Defensemen

Slava Fetisov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)
• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every WC held between 1982 and 1991

Valeri Vasiliev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1973, 1977, 1979)
• All Star Defenseman (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Jan Suchy (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Ragulin (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1966)
• All Star Defenseman (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967)

Alexei Kasatonov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1983)
• All Star Defenseman (1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1991)
• Note there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988

Frantisek Pospisil (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1972, 1976)
• All Star Defenseman (1972, 1976, 1977)

Nikolai Sologubov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1956, 1957, 1960)

Lennart Svedberg (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1970)
• All Star Defenseman (1968, 1969, 1970)

Frantisek Tikal (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1964, 1965)
• All Star Defenseman (1965)

Ivan Tregubov (USSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1958, 1961)

Jiri Bubla (CSSR)

• All Star Defenseman (1978, 1979)

Forwards

Sergei Makarov

• Directorate Best Forward (1979(3-way tie), 1985)
• All Star Forward (1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic years 1980, 1984, and 1988. Makarov was an All Star in every WC between 1979 and 1989

Anatoli Firsov

• Directorate Best Forward (1967, 1968, 1971)
• All Star Forward (1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Alexander Maltsev

• Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
• All Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Krutov

• Directorate Best Forward (1986, 1987)
• All Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986, 1987)
• Note there were no WCs in Olympic year 1984

Vladimir Martinec

• Directorate Best Forward (1976)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky

• Directorate Best Forward (1974)
• All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Vladimir Petrov

• All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Valeri Kharlamov

• All Star Forward (1972, 1973, 1976)

Sven "Tumba" Johansson (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Forward (1957, 1962)

Miroslav Vlach (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1963)
• All Star Forward (1961, 1963)

Konstantin Loktev (USSR)

• Directorate Best Forward (1966)
• All Star Forward (1965, 1966)

Ulf Sterner (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Forward (1969)
• All Star Forward (1962, 1969)

Boris Mikhailov

• Directorate Best Forward (1973, 1979(3-way tie))
• All Star Forward (1973, 1979)

Alexander Yakushev

• Directorate Best Forward (1975)
• All Star Forward (1974, 1975)

Nisse Nilsson (Sweden)

• Directorate Best Forward (1960)
• All Star Forward (1962)

Alexander Almetov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1965, 1967)

Venjamin Alexandrov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1966, 1967)

Vladimir Vikulov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1971, 1972)

Sergei Kapustin (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1978, 1981)

Igor Larionov (USSR)

• All Star Forward (1983, 1986)

Note Slava Bykov (All Star Forward 1989 at the WCs, All Star Forward at the 1992 Olympics misses the official criteria, but may have similar credentials. 1992 Olympics weren't best-on-best yet).

Ineligible players (included for sake of comparison)

Goaltenders

Seth Martin (Canada)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1961, 1963, 1964, 1966)
• All-Star Goaltender (1961, 1964, 1966)

Dominik Hasek (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Goaltender (1987, 1989)
• All-Star Goaltender (1987, 1989, 1990)

Defensemen

Harry Smith (Canada)

• All-Star Defenseman (1961, 1962, 1963)

Forwards

Steve Yzerman (Canada)

• Directorate Best Forward (1990)
• All Star Forward (1989, 1990)

Fran Huck (Canada)

• All Star Forward (1966, 1968)

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Approximately 25% of the top 70 from before WW2 seems outrageously high, considering that their national teams of the era were clearly inferior to the teams Canada sent over, which again, were composed of amateurs at a time when all the best Canadians were in the NHL.

I don't doubt that some contemporary home country papers without a good frame of reference may have tried to paint their stars as of similar quality to NHL stars.

Agreed I can't think of any players from that time frame that instantly come to mind in a list like this.

It is because you are looking at it from the wrong perspective in my opinion. You are judging the players based on how they stacked up or would stack up against North American/NHL players, instead of looking at them in the context of their European counterparts.

So who would you put higher up on a top 70 list ?
A mediocre ex-NHL'er (European) from the 1990s, or a top 10 player in Europe from the 1930s ?.

A mediocre player from the 1990s shouldn't crack a modern top 70 list, let alone an all-time list, but the players who were regarded as the best players from the pre-WW II era, some for many years, should of course be ahead on such a list. They should be judged equally with their modern counterparts.

We can't put Vsevolod Bobrov alongside a guy like Artem Anisimov for example and say that Anisimov is the better player.
A mediocre player by today standards would of course skate circles around a top guy from the 1950s.

We should judge the players based on their accomplishments and how they stacked up against their contemporaries.

People will simply have very few pre-WW II players on their lists because there isn't enough knowledge about them.

We will probably approach this project differently. We can give all the players a fair shake and look at what they accomplished or we can dismiss them beforehand.

I personally think there should be a pre-WW II list and one for players who played after the war.

At least this project will open up for some interesting discussions on the topic.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It is because you are looking at it from the wrong perspective in my opinion. You are judging the players based on how they stacked up or would stack up against North American/NHL players, instead of looking at them in the context of their European counterparts.

So who would you put higher up on a top 70 list ?
A mediocre ex-NHL'er (European) from the 1990s, or a top 10 player in Europe from the 1930s ?

I would not put a mediocre ex-NHLer anywhere near my list. If you want to make cases for 10 Europeans from the 1930s, please do so, I'm sure there are several worth at least considering.

We can't put Vsevolod Bobrov alongside a guy like Artem Anisimov for example and say that Anisimov is the better player.
A mediocre player by today standards would of course skate circles around a top guy from the 1950s.

Should be noted of course that Bobrov most definitely is not a pre-WW2 player.

We should judge the players based on their accomplishments and how they stacked up against their contemporaries.

Of course, but how do you definite "contemporaries"? Their contemporaries within only their home nations? Their contemporaries within Europe as a whole? Or their contemporaries throughout the world?

 

[Theokritos]

We should judge the players based on their accomplishments and how they stacked up against their contemporaries.

The question is: which contemporaries? The best in the world or something else? I mean, Maurice Richards was a contemporary of Vladimír Zábrodský for example...

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

I would not put a mediocre ex-NHLer anywhere near my list. If you want to make cases for 10 Europeans from the 1930s, please do so, I'm sure there are several worth at least considering.

For sure, there are several who will be considered.

Should be noted of course that Bobrov most definitely is not a pre-WW2 player.

Yes, I wrote the 1950s.

Of course, but how do you definite "contemporaries"? Their contemporaries within only their home nations? Their contemporaries within Europe as a whole? Or their contemporaries throughout the world?

Europe of course.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Some notes on the long WC awards post I made:

• Either Jiri Holecek was generally better at the WCs than Tretiak, or the voters were reluctant to vote for a goalie on a "stacked" team (both theories had some traction on the HOH Goalies project). Regardless, Tretiak's accomplishments outside the WCs are more impressive than Holecek, in particular his play against NHLers. Also, Holecek didn't do all that much outside of the 1971-1978 period.
• Slava Fetisov was simply the man at the WCs, with easily the best awards record of any player.
• Important question - did the WCs always used a "3 best forwards" format, or did they divide between LW, C, and RW? If so, what years was each format used in?
• Regarding the 1970s Soviets, Maltsev's record at the WCs is shockingly good, and Mikhailov and Kharlamov look shockingly not so good. Worth noting that IF the WCs used a LW/C/RW format, Mikhailov was competing against Vladimir Martinec at RW, and Martinec was easily Czechoslovakia's best WC forward. As for Kharlamov, perhaps he gets most of his reputation from the 1972 and 1976 Olympics (he almost doubled the #2 scorer in the 72 Olympics) and the 1972 Summit Series.
• Sergei Makarov's record is odd - Named a media All-star in every WC held between 1979 and 1989, but named Directorate Best Forward just once twice, with one of them the three-way tie in 1979.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For sure, there are several who will be considered.

Well, I would hope you will make their case in this thread before we open voting.

Europe of course.

So a lot of British players from the 1930s?

It's strange to me, Czech players like Malecek and Drobny seem to have the best individual reputations from pre-WW2 players as far as I can tell, but they didn't have much team success

 

[Theokritos]

Important question - did the WCs always used a "3 best forwards" format, or did they divide between LW, C, and RW? If so, what years was each format used in?

There's evidence they did divide by position in 1971 and 1972. Voting results from 1971: Firsov (LW) 44 pts, Maltsev (C) 36, Kharlamov (LW) 18, Vikulov (RW) 12. Kharlamov doesn't make the All-star team but Vikulov does.
1972: Maltsev (C) 96 pts, Kharlamov (LW) 91, Yakushev (LW) 43, Vikulov (RW) 28. Yakushev doesn't make the All-star team but Vikulov does.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There's evidence they did divide by position in 1971 and 1972. Voting results from 1971: Firsov (LW) 44 pts, Maltsev (C) 36, Kharlamov (LW) 18, Vikulov (RW) 12. Kharlamov doesn't make the All-star team but Vikulov does.
1972: Maltsev (C) 96 pts, Kharlamov (LW) 91, Yakushev (LW) 43, Vikulov (RW) 28. Yakushev doesn't make the All-star team but Vikulov does.

Thanks. I see the post you are referring to now: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=67956409&postcount=38

Writers voted for all forwards but the official team was done by strict position? What a joke of a system

Anyway, it does dim Vikulov's light quite a bit.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Well, I would hope you will make their case in this thread before we open voting.

Well, I can of course spit out names that I believe are worth looking into. I am sure a lot of names will pop up here sooner or later.

So a lot of British players from the 1930s?

Actually not many at all. The best British players were Canadian born and learned the game there, so they are automaticaly disqualified (or?). None of the British born guys are in my top 70, but I might have overlooked someone. Maybe someone else will have a Brit on their top 70 list.

It's strange to me, Czech players like Malecek and Drobny seem to have the best individual reputations from pre-WW2 players as far as I can tell, but they didn't have much team success

Drobný was good for a few years, but hockey was his second sport, he was first and foremost a tennis player.
Because of his tennis, he refused to leave his club I.CLTK Praha and join LTC Praha. Both clubs played tennis and hockey, but LTC was much more successful when it came to hockey, so that hurt Drobný's hockey career. Not a bad player, but not a top 70 player in my opinion.

Malecek won four European Championships, four Spengler Cups (the most prestigious club tournament at the time in Europe) and won the domestic league 12 times (plus one title in Slovakia). He won another dozen or so international tournaments around Europe. So I would say that he was fairly successful on a team level as well.

There will be plenty of things that voters will take into consideration, that's for sure.

 

[sajmae]

Well, I would hope you will make their case in this thread before we open voting.



So a lot of British players from the 1930s?

It's strange to me, Czech players like Malecek and Drobny seem to have the best individual reputations from pre-WW2 players as far as I can tell, but they didn't have much team success

Maleček seems like the only one worth mentioning as a pure pre-WW2 player, at least from Czechoslovak players. Bibi Torriani is always mentioned as the only player comparable to Maleček in the 30s, but that is all that is written about him.

In 1947-49 when Czechoslovakia was the best European team, the main stars were Zábrodský and Bohumil Modrý. Drobný is imo the third best player after them in the 40s, but his case just isn't strong enough for this list.

 

[Batis]

Some notes on the long WC awards post I made:

• Sergei Makarov's record is odd - Named a media All-star in every WC held between 1979 and 1989 but named Directorate Best Forward just once.

Sergei Makarov was actually named Directorate Best Forward two times in 1979 and 1985. As was Mikhailov (73, 79). In 1979 Makarov, Mikhailov and Paiement shared the award.

http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/mondial1979.htm

But yes Makarovs record is still somewhat odd. What should be noted though is that Makarov in 1982 and 1983 took the right wing spot on the All Star team ahead of Shalimov and Lala who won the Directorate award in those tournaments.