Hockey's Biggest "What if"?

[ShelbyZ]

What if Sergei Fedorov never leaves Detroit by signing one of the $10M/year extensions Holland allegedly offered?
Adding to that, how much quicker does the team enter a rebuild considering they'd be going into the salary cap with both Fedorov and Lidstrom at league max cap hits taking up around 40% of their allowed payroll?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Some have Orr more than neck and neck with Gretzky - they have him ahead. He obviously doesn't have the accomplishments, but if you ask who the better hockey player was, I believe the answer among knowledgeable hockey people is very split.

Another way of looking at it is that Gretzky never had the accomplishments Orr had. Orr achieved all of Gretzky's trophies... plus eight Norris Trophies (something Gretzky obviously could never get). Orr was also the only defenseman to ever with the Art Ross (and he did it twice, too).

I'm one of those guys that have Orr coming out on top in the neck-to-neck ranking battle with Gretzky.

 

[DannyGallivan]

What if Tretiak played for Montreal when he was drafted and pushed Roy back a spot?

Montreal wouldn't have won the Cup in '86.

 

[jghockey]

What if Lindros had kept his head up?

What if Lindros had stayed healthy?

What if the Avalanche had not matched NYR's offer to Joe Sakic?

What if the Predators had not matched the Flyers' offer to Shea Weber?

What if Lindros got traded to the Rangers in 1992?

What if Mario Lemieux had stayed healthy?

What if the Red Wings had not matched the Canes' offer to Sergei Fedorov?

 

[DannyGallivan]

What if Lindros had kept his head up?

What if Lindros had stayed healthy?

What if the Avalanche had not matched NYR's offer to Joe Sakic?

What if the Predators had not matched the Flyers' offer to Shea Weber?

What if Lindros got traded to the Rangers in 1992?

What if Mario Lemieux had stayed healthy?

What if the Red Wings had not matched the Canes' offer to Sergei Fedorov?

c'mon all you guys who just ask the "what ifs"... provide the answers as well.

 

[Brodeur]

What if Anaheim hadn't traded down in 2008? They traded #12 for #17 and #28, and then #28 for #35 and #39. Allegedly their target was Erik Karlsson who they thought would still be there at #17. But Ottawa traded up to get him at #15. Instead Anaheim ended up with Jake Gardiner, Eric O'Dell, and Nicolas Deschamps.

 

[brachyrynchos]

c'mon all you guys who just ask the "what ifs"... provide the answers as well.

You're right.
Lemieux in New Jersey and Muller (?) in Pittsburgh would've radically changed the fate of both teams. Muller was a Devil, and pretty good in his time there but if Pittsburgh didn't tank as much as it looked like, Mario would've been in New Jersey and they most likely wouldn't be those 'stereotypical' Devils. Their philosophy and style of play I think would've been totally different, and the rest of the NY metro teams might've changed how they went about their business.
Losing Scott Stevens was such a huge loss for Washington, a huge piece in a stellar defensive core that featured Calle Johansson, Rod Langway, and a young Kevin Hatcher who actually played with some snarl in his early years. The compensation never wasn't equal to his loss. Stevens came into the league and immediately seemed to have the respect of his teammates and made a presence to the opposition. His first year was the first year Langway was a Cap...and the first year Washington ever made the playoffs. Caps success would've been better with him. St Louis would have their 5 1st rd picks & might've tried to sign someone else, maybe they still go after Shanahan but Jersey wouldn't end up with Stevens.
I used to be big into kickboxing and mma from ~95-07 and one of the best things about that era was the different organizations each had their own style & rules, and some great fighters. I guess that's where I've always wondered about the WHA and later on the IHL. WHA drafted players that were also selected in NHL drafts, if more of those players chose the W would it have changed things for both leagues. From what I remember about the IHL, is that it seemed to fit the west's style of play more than the AHL. I guess I would've liked to have seen those leagues a little more successful and how things might've ended up and maybe change some things one way or another.
A healthy Bossy for another 3 seasons might've meant another 100 goals if not more and would've ended up in the top 10 goal scorers of all time and the Islanders might've been a little better at the end of the '80's,
The league had such momentum, excitement, and exposure. If the NHL and the NHLPA found a way maybe there is no dead puck era, how the game was changed on the ice and how it was marketed off the ice would be probably alot different.
Where Lindros ended up and if he would've signed with Quebec is a butterfly effect that is full of what ifs, and way too heavy for me, the fate of every team and player associated with every Lindros scenario...endless.

 

[Asheville]

What if Quebec had drafted someone not named Eric Lindros in the 1991 draft?

That was never a possibility.

 

[Bluesguru]

What if Scotty Bowman never leaves the St. Louis Blues and ends up running the team as Coach/Gm?

 

[DannyGallivan]

A healthy Bossy for another 3 seasons might've meant another 100 goals if not more and would've ended up in the top 10 goal scorers of all time and the Islanders might've been a little better at the end of the '80's,

Probably another 150 goals, since it was still just getting into the highest scoring period in NHL history. More importantly, it would be an incredible streak of uninterrupted 50 goal seasons.

 

[Theokritos]

That was never a possibility.

The better question would be: What if Quebec trades away the #1 pick in 1991?

 

[brachyrynchos]

Were there any rule proposals over the years that could've changed things if implemented? Or if some of the former ones were still in effect?

 

[MarkusKetterer]

What if the Sabres won the lottery both years and drafted Ekblad and McDavid instead?

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Were there any rule proposals over the years that could've changed things if implemented? Or if some of the former ones were still in effect?

One example: What if the NHL had never lowered the draft age from 20 down to 18 in 1979? Obviously a lot of players would've ended up playing on different teams, but the draft would also be less of a crap shoot — teams would have a much better sense of what they were getting if they were picking 20-year-olds.

Possibly that leads to a lot more parity in the league since bad teams would be far more likely to get good players (as opposed to busts) with their high picks.

------

Also wonder what would have happened if Gretzky had been traded to Detroit or Vancouver in 1988 (the other two rumored destinations at the time) instead of Los Angeles. Without those sell-out crowds in LA, we might not have seen the NHL expand aggressively into non-traditional markets in the 1990s — or at least the process would have been much slower.

 

[Sentinel]

What if both Bure and Mogilny are healthy in 98-99?

 

[The Panther]

Also wonder what would have happened if Gretzky had been traded to Detroit or Vancouver in 1988 (the other two rumored destinations at the time) instead of Los Angeles.

Even though Wayne looked cool in the '88-'91 Kings' jerseys, I wish to hell he'd been traded to Detroit in 1988 (or a bit later) rather than to L.A. They might have struggled the first few years, but through the rest of the 90s they were a franchise rising and peaking, unlike the incompetently managed Kings and Rangers that Wayne ended up with.

The only way this scenario works, though, is if the Wings could keep Yzerman. That's evidently why this trade didn't happen, btw, because the Oilers insisted Yzerman had to go the other way and the Wings understandably refused. But surely if Detroit had Pocklington's money ready to wire, they could have worked out some sort of deal involving several players and draft picks without including Yzerman. This would potentially have involved Adam Oates (nobody knew how good he was yet), Adam Graves, Joe Murphy, Peter Klima (who all went to Edmonton anyway in late '89), and maybe a tough guy.

The dumbest thing about the Gretzky-in-L.A. thing was that Wayne -- whose fear of flying threatened his career from an early age -- went from having the second-worst travel-schedule in pro-hockey for 10 years... to having the absolute worst (along with Vancouver's) in L.A., for the next six years. He also had to play Edmonton a bunch of times every year which nobody involved seemed to enjoy.

I think an Oilers-Red Wings 'trade' like the one I suggest above would have benefited Edmonton a lot more, though I guess it's debatable whether it would have benefited Detroit any more since they were on the up anyway. But you'd have to think a team with Yzerman and Gretzky at center, from 1988 to 1994, would have been pretty good, esp. with guys like Fedorov coming up.

 

[Sadekuuro]

What if the Soviet Union still existed, so players like Fedorov, Bure, Ovechkin and Malkin never came to North America?

Fedorov defected to North America back when there was still a Soviet Union.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

What if Steve Yzerman had been traded to Ottawa for Yashin? At the time apparently those trade rumours were pretty hot..

 

[brachyrynchos]

If Neil Smith had his way at the '89 Draft, Pavel Bure would've been selected in the 5th rd by the Red Wings. Smith was told by Holland no more russians until the later rounds and didn't think Bure was eligible. Vancouver ended up taking him, Bure on the Wings would've been something to see, would've changed the Canucks a bit.
'89 was the same year DET selected Lidstrom, Fedorov, and Konstantinov. Maybe the Wings end up making a trade for Mogilny.

 

[bobholly39]

c'mon all you guys who just ask the "what ifs"... provide the answers as well.

Okay. Here are the 3 I made, with answers.

If Lemieux had never had his chronic back issues, nor never had his cancer - I say he ends up with more Art Ross trophies than Wayne Gretzky.
I also say we see him make a run at a few single season records of Gretzkys (215 points, 92 goals). I'm not going to lamely predict whether he beats them or not as it would be just a guess - but imo his level of play would certainly have been at that level for at least 2-3 additional seasons, and therefore in a perfect storm/lucky season he could have made a run at some of them.
Despite the above 2 claims - Gretzky firmly remains #1 all time. More consistency overall at start of career (possible Lemieux ages better, but impossible to say 100% how much more mileage affects him, good or bad) helps Gretzky a lot - and mostly, in playoffs Gretzky was untouchable, which would be the big differentiator. Although I think Lemieux ends up #1 for goals all time quite easily - he doesn't touch Gretzky's all time points (and obviously, not assists either). That is unless of course Lemieux somehow plays till 40+ and keeps racking up points, but that seems super unrealistic.
In this scenario - Mario Lemieux has a very, very strong case for #2 all time. (those that still today have Orr #1 bump Lemieux to 3 - but for those who have Gretzky #1 today, I say Lemieux comes in 2 above Orr/Howe).

Orr. As fantastic as Gretzky's career was - i think he's actually quite vulnerable in the back half of his career. Not for anyone of course, just for Lemieux/Orr (arguably the 2 only ever players at his talent level), who both could possibly have aged slightly better under different circumstances. I spoke about Lemieux already - but in a perfectly healthy world I think Orr is the one who ages by far the best out of the 3. Hockey history is full of defensemen who peak or even enter their prime post-30. Orr probably could have had a lot of mileage left to do great things. I personally think we had already seen his peak - so i doubt he'd reach new heights - but he'd certainly maintain his level of play for many more years. I think with enough longevity Orr would be #1 (not unanimously - but by a greater degree than Gretzky).

Crosby. I think 2011, 2012 and 2013 would have been his best seasons without injuries. I get all the people countering with "pace doesn't mean full seasons" - and I acknowledge that Crosby in particular has been notorious in his career for being streaky during some seasons - but I still think those 3 seasons would have been a considerable step up from the rest. I think in 2011 or 2012 he'd have surpassed 120 again, maybe even approached 130 points. How does that impact his legacy? I think he'd be among the select few players with a strong argument for the 5th best peak in hockey after the big 4. His offensive peak would be on the level of Jagr, maybe even slightly above. I think he'd have 3 extra Art Ross trophies to his name, and at least 2 harts (maybe 3). I think he'd stack up pretty nicely to Howe after 13 seasons.

 

[DannyGallivan]

If Lemieux had never had his chronic back issues, nor never had his cancer - I say he ends up with more Art Ross trophies than Wayne Gretzky.
I also say we see him make a run at a few single season records of Gretzkys (215 points, 92 goals). I'm not going to lamely predict whether he beats them or not as it would be just a guess - but imo his level of play would certainly have been at that level for at least 2-3 additional seasons, and therefore in a perfect storm/lucky season he could have made a run at some of them.

I can agree with that.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Despite the above 2 claims - Gretzky firmly remains #1 all time. More consistency overall at start of career (possible Lemieux ages better, but impossible to say 100% how much more mileage affects him, good or bad) helps Gretzky a lot - and mostly, in playoffs Gretzky was untouchable, which would be the big differentiator. Although I think Lemieux ends up #1 for goals all time quite easily - he doesn't touch Gretzky's all time points (and obviously, not assists either). That is unless of course Lemieux somehow plays till 40+ and keeps racking up points, but that seems super unrealistic.
In this scenario - Mario Lemieux has a very, very strong case for #2 all time. (those that still today have Orr #1 bump Lemieux to 3 - but for those who have Gretzky #1 today, I say Lemieux comes in 2 above Orr/Howe).

Well, for me Orr is the best ever anyways. However, for the Lemieux/Gretzky comparison, I could probably go so far as to say that a healthy Mario would have eclipsed the Great One (well, narrowly edged him anyways). I base that on how dominant he was after his return from retirement, until his body forced him to slow down yet again. That was after several seasons off and at an advanced age.

 

[VMBM]

If Orr and Bobby Hull (or even just one of them) were healthy enough to play against the Soviets in '72...

Canada wins by a minimum of 6 games to 2 (a sweep or 7 games to 1 isn't out of the question).

Maybe, just maybe, that leads to the following scenarios:

Paul Henderson remains totally forgotten by history
Esposito's legacy falls down a notch
The Canada/Soviet rivalry never takes hold
The Canada Cup never happens

What if Anatoli Firsov had played? What if Tarasov and Chernyshev had been Team USSR's coaches? What if Tretiak had been a bit older and more experienced? What if Yevgeni Zimin (2+1 after the first two games and considered to be one of the best Soviet players by e.g. Foster Hewitt and Brian Conacher) hadn't been injured and had played after game 2 also? What if a healthy Kharlamov plays all the games?

Still 6-2 or 7-1 for Canada? I'd say bollocks.

So that the revisionism does not get too one-sided.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Orr. As fantastic as Gretzky's career was - i think he's actually quite vulnerable in the back half of his career. Not for anyone of course, just for Lemieux/Orr (arguably the 2 only ever players at his talent level), who both could possibly have aged slightly better under different circumstances. I spoke about Lemieux already - but in a perfectly healthy world I think Orr is the one who ages by far the best out of the 3. Hockey history is full of defensemen who peak or even enter their prime post-30. Orr probably could have had a lot of mileage left to do great things. I personally think we had already seen his peak - so i doubt he'd reach new heights - but he'd certainly maintain his level of play for many more years. I think with enough longevity Orr would be #1 (not unanimously - but by a greater degree than Gretzky).

Yes, no doubt.

 

[DannyGallivan]

What if Anatoli Firsov had played? What if Tarasov and Chernyshev had been Team USSR's coaches? What if Tretiak had been a bit older and more experienced? What if Yevgeni Zimin (2+1 after the first two games and considered to be one of the best Soviet players by e.g. Foster Hewitt and Brian Conacher) hadn't been injured and had played after game 2 also? What if a healthy Kharlamov plays all the games?

Still 6-2 or 7-1 for Canada? I'd say bollocks.

So that the revisionism does not get too one-sided.

What if Canada actually prepared for this series?
What if they were in mid-season condition?
What if they played together as a team for a full season?

Those scenerios, and perhaps either one (never mind both) of Orr and Hull would mean...

8-0 Canada, including a few blowouts. The Soviets' depth and defense were always in question.