Hockey of the past vs today

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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So you don't have an answer?

What's the question talent pool or entertainment?

The talent pool is at it's lowest point today. Bringing in soft useless third liners from Europe doesn't mean the talent pool is bigger. Nearly every team in the league with a few exceptions(penguins ect) having 3 or 4 lines of useless forwards who handle the puck like a grenade but 'skate well and play good d' doesn't make the talent pool bigger.

Care to explain that assertion?

It simply isn't backed by facts, go look at top 20 scoring or post season all star teams, top goalies, Norris candidates ect....

Alot of those guys come from places that produced zero to extremely low levels of NHL talent from 1917 until the 1970's.
 

streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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What's the question talent pool or entertainment?



Care to explain that assertion?

It simply isn't backed by facts, go look at top 20 scoring or post season all star teams, top goalies, Norris candidates ect....

Alot of those guys come from places that produced zero to extremely low levels of NHL talent from 1917 until the 1970's.


Yet there's no Bobby Orr in the NHL today.
 

wetcoast

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Yet there's no Bobby Orr in the NHL today.

No there isn't but not sure what your point is here?

When Orr hit the NHL he was a legit Norris candidate that first season because the field for the Norris when Harry Howell won was really dismal.
 

streitz

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No there isn't but not sure what your point is here?

When Orr hit the NHL he was a legit Norris candidate that first season because the field for the Norris when Harry Howell won was really dismal.

There's no Gordie Howe today either...
 

wetcoast

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There's no Gordie Howe today either...

There was also no Erik Karlsson or Malkin in 06 NHL hockey...all factual statements.

Not really sure the point of your last 2 posts.

Perhaps you could expand your thoughts?
 

The Panther

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I think it's an entirely pointless exercise to argue that hockey of the past was "better" (whatever that means) than today, and it's equally pointless to argue that hockey of today is better than in the past.

I simply look at different eras as different eras. They're all more-or-less equal, though there are some notable periods where the talent pool was clearly extended beyond an ideal level (maybe c.1975 to 1979, for example). But even then, the NHL has always been the highest-level League on earth, so anyone or any team that excels in any era is deserving of high respect.

Fitness level of players, degree of 'hate' and competition between clubs, and entertainment value of the sport are all different aspects. Let's break those down:

Fitness is obviously a universal priority of the pro-player today, for a variety of reasons. Does this in itself make today's game/players better than in the past? I don't know. We all know the shifts have gotten shorter and the goons/enforcers are out of the sport, so that means all players have to skate hard in short stints on the ice. So, if you can't keep up with the pace, you can't make the NHL. (The lack of a red line also contributed to this, I think, as the 'stretch pass' is now the fastest way down the ice, whereas before 2005 everybody had to skate with the puck through the neutral zone.) But does everybody being super-fast in one direction mean the game is better? I guess it depends on how you appreciate the game. I like the super-fast pace, myself, but I prefer watching players stickhandle to stretch passes. Compare to baseball, for example. In baseball, not every player is expected to be a super-fast runner who can steal bases or beat the throw to first, and thirty years ago in the NHL not every player was expected to skate like Paul Coffey because players' roles on their teams were very different (and shifts were longer).

Degree of 'hate' and rivalry between teams is bad point of today's game, I think. Partly it's a result of the NHLPA being stronger than team-loyalty nowadays, and largely it's a result of money. Players are simply not willing to sacrifice their health or get 20-game suspensions, and coaches are smarter, too, and don't want stupid emotional plays that hurt their team. There's also much more awareness of health issues, esp. concussions. This is all good, and you can't really blame the players for it. But I think the NHL is partly to blame by being too slow to force rivalries. Divisional rivalries don't play one another enough now, or too infrequently. (I think last season, for example, the Oilers/Flames played on opening night and then not again until late January or something.) I personally think the bigger NHL now should be divided into two almost-separate Leagues, and that all the Canadian teams should form a division so that they all play one another a lot.

Entertainment value? I dunno. I thought hockey was getting boring (again) around 2009 to 2014 -- too low scoring, too much shot-blocking, too much defense-first with the game being coached to death. But for the past two or three seasons, it's been getting better and better. The old days of hate between teams may be gone, but the level of skill is strong now, scoring is going up, and the pace is fast.
 

Canadiens1958

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Talent and entertainment go hand in hand, cannot be separated. What drove hockey from 1875 onwards was that fans would actually pay to see games. This has continued to this day.

O6 era and into the 1990,s teams always had roster holes but these were fillable whether the 1963 Bruins looking for a goalie - they found won, Canadiens replacing Ken Dryden with a threesome, winning a Vezina, etc The talent was out there.

Today certain talent is simply not available - goalies, RDs or LDs, most teams are short one or the other, etc.
 
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BraveCanadian

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It simply isn't backed by facts, go look at top 20 scoring or post season all star teams, top goalies, Norris candidates ect....

Just chiming in to point out that none of those things have anything to do with the talent pool available to develop NHL players.

Country of birth doesn't inidcate the talent pool level on a one to one basis by any means.
 
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wetcoast

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Just chiming in to point out that none of those things have anything to do with the talent pool available to develop NHL players.

Country of birth doesn't inidcate the talent pool level on a one to one basis by any means.


Yes it actually does unless you think that the traditional talent pool has gotten worse from the original 5 provinces that provided 95%+ of all NHL talent before the early 1970's.

The fact of the matter is that top elite players at all positions in the NHL are no longer dominated by the original talent stream.
 
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BraveCanadian

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Yes it actually does unless you think that the traditional talent pool has gotten worse from the original 5 provinces that provided 95%+ of all NHL talent before the early 1970's.

The fact of the matter is that top elite players at all positions in the NHL are no longer dominated by the original talent stream.

Again, that has literally nothing to do with the amount of people available in those streams.

The easiest example of this is a top-flight player like Kopitar coming from Slovenia. He would be in on some of those top whatever lists you are relying on, but he is literally the only player from his country in the NHL.

Another would be players like Ovechkin and Malkin who come from a country whose contribution to the NHL is down significantly from its peak.

As has been pointed out to people on your side of the argument 1000000000000000 times, there are many reasons why the talent pool available for the NHL fluctuates up and down within each country and overall. It has been documented many, many times here and shown to be much more nuanced than your "today's players are the best" crowd arguments which rely on "common sense".
 
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talitintti

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Oct 13, 2018
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What matters more than the size of the talent pool is the level of development programs and training the players receive.

I am a large disbeliever of "talent" in general. Surely the level of players isn't linked to the kind of genetic combinations being born over a certain generation or anything absurd like that...
 

streitz

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For example, in the late-90s there was a great amount of talent and the game was getting more dull.


I disagree with this, aside from the talent being thinned out throughout the league because of expansion there was a shortage of top end talent coming into the league, especially at forward throughout the 90's.
 

wetcoast

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I disagree with this, aside from the talent being thinned out throughout the league because of expansion there was a shortage of top end talent coming into the league, especially at forward throughout the 90's.


This wasn't true at all in the 90's the amount of elite forwards was very high, there was just a proliferation of concussion and other injuries to elite forwards in the 90's.

This argument is actually more applicable when the NHL expanded from 6 to 12 teams, then with more expansion in 1970 and 72 with the WHA for the remainder of the 70's.

The NHL was a constant 21 team league in the 90's and with increasing numbers of elite players from non traditional talent streams.

Sure expansion happened again in the 90's but so did access for the NHL of elite players from behind the Iron Curtain.

Also in the 90's saw a huge talent burst from Europe and Canada doing extremely well on the leaderboards and post season awards voting.
 

wetcoast

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I don't think so. For example, in the late-90s there was a great amount of talent and the game was getting more dull.

I agree talent and entertainment are completely different animals here.

For instance during intermissions at the Vancouver Giants the timbits exhibition is extremely entertaining but the talent level isn't going to be confused with any WHL team.

As for the 90's we can blame Bettman and the NHL for allowing clutch and grab hockey, basically rugby on ice, and for the goalie equipment to explode size wise.
 

streitz

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This wasn't true at all in the 90's the amount of elite forwards was very high, there was just a proliferation of concussion and other injuries to elite forwards in the 90's.

This argument is actually more applicable when the NHL expanded from 6 to 12 teams, then with more expansion in 1970 and 72 with the WHA for the remainder of the 70's.

The NHL was a constant 21 team league in the 90's and with increasing numbers of elite players from non traditional talent streams.

Sure expansion happened again in the 90's but so did access for the NHL of elite players from behind the Iron Curtain.

Also in the 90's saw a huge talent burst from Europe and Canada doing extremely well on the leaderboards and post season awards voting.


Nah, the late 90's sucked compared to the early 90's and 80's.

Not a single player in his prime aside from Jagr and Sakic on the level of the big 80's and 90's stars. Aswell as a few post prime players who were still solid(Yzerman, Oates for ex.)


Yeah yeah I know, Lindros who couldn't keep his head up and ForEsberg who doubled as an olympic diver and human bandaid were just so injury prone and would have saved the league if not for the DPE.
 

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I disagree with this, aside from the talent being thinned out throughout the league because of expansion there was a shortage of top end talent coming into the league, especially at forward throughout the 90's.

Say what? Jagr, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Yashin, Roenick, Sundin, Forsberg, Lindros, LeClair, Palffy, Sanderson, Kariya, Lidstrom, Zubov, Amonte, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Kamensky, Ozolinsh, Nolan, Brodeur, Modano, Tkachuk, Pronger, Niedermayer, Blake, etc. The 90's oozed talent.

The problem was, the NHL let players clutch, grab, hold, obstruct, way more than every. To the point Mario Lemieux verbally killed the league, as did Brett Hull.

The 90's even had some excitement with physical play and enforcers. If teams like Florida and NJ weren't allowed to smother - many players obstructed non-step for that matter - the mid to late 90's would have been more exciting.

The NHL had a real identity crisis at that time, though, IMO. Bettman was trying to market, expand, and experiments at all costs. Nonsense like the glow puck, fighting robots on Fox, and other gimmicks hurt the game's credibility in addition to the horrific obstruction. But there was some great talent - those players were just hounded and tackled.
 

streitz

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Jul 22, 2018
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Say what? Jagr, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Yashin, Roenick, Sundin, Forsberg, Lindros, LeClair, Palffy, Sanderson, Kariya, Lidstrom, Zubov, Amonte, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Kamensky, Ozolinsh, Nolan, Brodeur, Modano, Tkachuk, Pronger, Niedermayer, Blake, etc. .


Most of those guys are mediocre at best.


Sanderson? Geoff Sanderson???? What did that guy have like 1 40 goal season on a junk team then turned into an expansion draft guy?
Amonte? Kozlov? Kamensky? Ozolinsh????(lol) Owen 40 points NOLAN???


I guess if you consider 60 point players 'elite offensive talent' then your needs should be satisfied. I grew up watching Gretzky, Lemieux, Hawerchuk, Dionne, Savard among many others. I'm assuming by your posts you watched hockey in the 70's and 80's aswell. Should have higher standards.
 

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