Hockey Hall of Fame 2017

[Sentinel]

If that's the case, then it's one of the most egregious examples yet of people buying into the captaincy myth.

Why? Were you a mainstay in the Lightning locker room during his tenure? Overpass supplied a nice selection of press.

The game is not won on stats sheets. Teams, especially in playoffs, are usually very different from the statistics of the individual players. If they weren't, the 96 Wings and 17 Capitals would've won their first Cups.

Teams are composed of players, not robots. A team of superstars can have bad chemistry and choke. And a team of college students can beat the Red Machine. Do not underestimate the value of locker room leadership.

I actually lean towards thinking that Andreychuk did not win the induction because of his compiling numbers. Captaining an outsider to the Stanley Cup OTOH goes a long way.

 

[Ishdul]

1988 sabres says it's possible? 1986 and '87 sabres say it wouldn't be an everyday occurrence though.

I'd take Barrasso over Andreychuk that year. Maaaaaaaaybe Housley?

If they put in Barrasso, Mogilny and Turgeon we're going to get some Sabres teams that had like 8 Hall of Famers over a short span, all pretty close to their best years, and were like a .500 team for most of it.

 

[ScaredStreit]

At this point how could Turgeon not get in? Some years I wish they'd just induct fewer people...does it have to be 4 people every year?

I suspect that Andreychuk got in solely on his captaincy of the Cup-winning Lightning. An elder statesman who brought his team to the Holy Land is always a nice narrative, but mind you: this was the first time in a decade when the Cup was won by someone other than the Big Four. It's those "intangibles" that made Toews (undeservingly) the punchline of every joke. If that's the case, I am OK with him in the Hall. There is so much locker room stuff we don't know. And, of course, not everything can be measured by stats.

I agree without the Lightning cup he doesn't get in...which is pretty silly considering Lecavalier, St. Louis, Richards, Boyle, Khabibulin, Modin, Kubina were all more important to the team in my opinion.

 

[Voight]

I'm not getting why people on the main board are shocked Kariya made it and Alfie didn't.

He Has more top 10's in G/P/A, way better Hart record and made 5 AST's to Alfie's one, and has better record there too.

Not sure if its because he went AWOL when he retired or because we have an abundance of Sens fans here vs ANA fans.

I'd take Barrasso over Andreychuk that year. Maaaaaaaaybe Housley?

If they put in Barrasso, Mogilny and Turgeon we're going to get some Sabres teams that had like 8 Hall of Famers over a short span, all pretty close to their best years, and were like a .500 team for most of it.

I'd put CuJo in before either of them.

 

[MXD]

Not sure if its because he went AWOL when he retired or because we have an abundance of Sens fans here vs ANA fans.

All of the above.

 

[Big Phil]

He's more of a Hall of Very Good player to me, Andreychuk is a Hall of Famer to me.

I agree on the first point. Damphousse is a classic "HOVG" player. However, so is Andreychuk. Neither was a great player.

Can anyone see a reasonable argument for Andreychuk being in and Turgeon not being in? Not saying that I want Turgeon inducted mind you, just wondering how you exclude him in light of Andreychuk getting in.

Nope. In almost every way possible Turgeon was the better player. Even if we look at goal scoring, how is Andreychuk even better? This was his bread and butter too. I don't like the idea of Turgeon in either but it seems the Hall just picks a player and that's all there is to it, they never have to answer for it. They ought to go the route of baseball because I am telling you, we're going to see Paul Henderson or Ray Whitney or someone in there someday and we'll all trip over ourselves explaining why they don't belong and why the committee just lowered the bar - again - but it won't matter because they are in already and you can't take it back. There should be some accountability to the voting.

Mark Recchi isn't a hof player in my book. He always rode second ( Even third) on cup teams. Never won an individual trophy. Other than 98, wasn't chosen to represent Canada. Example of a guy who was " Good" but never " Great" consistently.

Recchi is not a bad choice. Some things about him bother you such as never really having a "team" he was identified with. Is it the Pens? Flyers? Habs? I don't know. However, three Cups and big contributions with all three of them is quite good. Plus, let's not compare him to Andreychuk here, for the first few years of Recchi's career he was an elite scorer. Perhaps a quiet scorer that got forgotten, but still an elite scorer. Even later in his career led in a category in assists in 2000. I don't have much of an issue with him in there.

As for the Canada thing, he got picked in 1998 once Kariya went down. Yeah you wish he was picked more, but I think he is a player that you think about right away that probably should have been on the team at some point. Andreychuk never should have, and wasn't.

 

[crobro]

Do Naslund 3 consecutive 1st team all star selections get him in the hall.

Not an easy feat to accomplish.

 

[Voight]

Mark Recchi isn't a hof player in my book. He always rode second ( Even third) on cup teams. Never won an individual trophy. Other than 98, wasn't chosen to represent Canada. Example of a guy who was " Good" but never " Great" consistently.

1989-2000

AST - 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7
Hart - 6, 9
Assists - 1, 4, 7, 9
Points - 3, 4, 5, 10

8th in points (two behind 7th place Turgeon)
10th in goals & assists

He was great in the 1990's and was still a valuable contributer at the end of his career, 48 points in the regular season, 14 in the playoffs. Hell, he managed 61 points as a 41 year old in 2009.

 

[Big Phil]

Do Naslund 3 consecutive 1st team all star selections get him in the hall.

Not an easy feat to accomplish.

Yesterday I'd have told you no, but then Dave Andreychuk got selected. However, Naslund doesn't have the numbers the HHOF likes so they were completely different players. Naslund at one point arguably was the best player in the NHL. Andreychuk might have a year or two where he was a top 20 player. Maybe.

Why? Were you a mainstay in the Lightning locker room during his tenure? Overpass supplied a nice selection of press.

The game is not won on stats sheets. Teams, especially in playoffs, are usually very different from the statistics of the individual players. If they weren't, the 96 Wings and 17 Capitals would've won their first Cups.

Teams are composed of players, not robots. A team of superstars can have bad chemistry and choke. And a team of college students can beat the Red Machine. Do not underestimate the value of locker room leadership.

I actually lean towards thinking that Andreychuk did not win the induction because of his compiling numbers. Captaining an outsider to the Stanley Cup OTOH goes a long way.

It clearly is the compiling numbers that got him in. But it was once he won a Cup that the idiots in the media started wondering "Hmmmm..............I think this makes him a Hall of Famer." No, it didn't. But he never gets in if he even has 580 goals. They like the 600+ number, even though he got that total because he was hanging around as a 30-40 point guy at the end of his career.

If captaining a Cup is so special why isn't Derian Hatcher in? Rod BrindAmour? Dustin Brown? I really should stop talking and giving the committee even MORE bad ideas.

 

[Epsilon]

Yesterday I'd have told you no, but then Dave Andreychuk got selected. However, Naslund doesn't have the numbers the HHOF likes so they were completely different players. Naslund at one point arguably was the best player in the NHL. Andreychuk might have a year or two where he was a top 20 player. Maybe.



It clearly is the compiling numbers that got him in. But it was once he won a Cup that the idiots in the media started wondering "Hmmmm..............I think this makes him a Hall of Famer." No, it didn't. But he never gets in if he even has 580 goals. They like the 600+ number, even though he got that total because he was hanging around as a 30-40 point guy at the end of his career.

If captaining a Cup is so special why isn't Derian Hatcher in? Rod BrindAmour? Dustin Brown? I really should stop talking and giving the committee even MORE bad ideas.

I'd possibly take Derian Hatcher over Andreychuk quite honestly, and I'd definitely take Brind'Amour. Also maybe guys like Adam Foote, Ulf Samuelsson, Kevin Lowe, Brad McCrimmon...

Oh and Sergei Zubov should probably be a Hall of Famer if both Housley and Andreychuk are in, for another name.

 

[Killion]

^^ I'm liking that selection. Zubov. Absolutely.... But before we get there are there not a number of long since retired players who should be in? Not one or the other, but please, the Veterans Category.... These guys'll be dead. Why posthumous inductions? Just get it done already.

 

[Big Phil]

I'd possibly take Derian Hatcher over Andreychuk quite honestly, and I'd definitely take Brind'Amour. Also maybe guys like Adam Foote, Ulf Samuelsson, Kevin Lowe, Brad McCrimmon...

Oh and Sergei Zubov should probably be a Hall of Famer if both Housley and Andreychuk are in, for another name.

That's the problem, I too would take BrindAmour in a heartbeat over Andreychuk but I always thought neither belonged in the HHOF. Zubov over Housley for sure although both were a little light in their resumes for me as defensemen have a high standard. Andreychuk gets in and all of the sudden it lowers the bar - again. Or did Dick Duff already have it that low? Either way, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I'd possibly take Derian Hatcher over Andreychuk quite honestly, and I'd definitely take Brind'Amour. Also maybe guys like Adam Foote, Ulf Samuelsson, Kevin Lowe, Brad McCrimmon...

Oh and Sergei Zubov should probably be a Hall of Famer if both Housley and Andreychuk are in, for another name.

All the above made my Andreychuk list:

Did this super quick, but here is the list of skaters drafted from 79-93 that I would take over Dave Andreychuk:

1979
Mark Messier
Ray Bourque
Mike Gartner
Michel Goulet
Glen Anderson
Dale Hunter
Brian Propp
Guy Carbonneau
Mats Naslund
Kevin Lowe
Brad McCrimmon

1980
Paul Coffey
Jari Kurri
Denis Savard
Larry Murphy
Steve Larmer

1981
Ron Francis
Dale Hawerchuk
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios

1982
Doug Gilmour
Phil Housley
Scott Stevens
Chris Chelios

1983
Steve Yzerman
Pat Lafontaine
Rick Tocchet
Claude Lemieux
Cam Neely

1984
Mario Lemieux
Luc Robitaille
Brett Hull
Kirk Muller
Gary Roberts
Gary Suter

1985
Joe Nieuwendyk

1986
Vincent Damphousse
Brian Leetch
Teppo Numminen

1987
Joe Sakic
Brendan Shanahan
Pierre Turgeon
Theo Fleury
Eric Desjardins
John LeClair

1988
Mark Recchi
Teemu Selanne
Mike Modano
Jeremey Roenick
Rod Brind'amour
Alex Mogilny
Rob Blake

1989
Mats Sundin
Sergei Fedorov
Nik Lidstrom
Pavel Bure
Adam Foote

1990
Jaromir Jagr
Keith Tkachuk
Sergei Zubov

1991
Alex Kovalev
Peter Forsberg
Markus Naslund
Eric Lindros
Scott Neidermayer

1992
Sergei Gonchar

1993
Paul Kariya
Chris Pronger
Kimmo Timonen

To that list I would add all five members of the famed Russian Green unit and Peter Stastny. Other players I could debate: Petr Bondra, Doug Weight, Derien Hatcher, Petr Svoboda, Pat Verbeek, Trevor Linden, Val Kamensky (based more on pre NHL playing), Bill Guerin, Esa Tikkanen & Kevin Stevens


Goalies of that era ahead of Andreychuk: Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Fuhr, CuJo, Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, Barasso, and Vernon

 

[Oxbow Lakes]

If captaining a Cup is so special why isn't Derian Hatcher in? Rod BrindAmour? Dustin Brown? I really should stop talking and giving the committee even MORE bad ideas.

Because none of them have 600+ goals in their career. It shoudln't be reasoned like that, but it likely will be.

Brind'Amour would've been better induction than Andreychuk, IMO. Not that he would be good induction either.

 

[Epsilon]

That's the problem, I too would take BrindAmour in a heartbeat over Andreychuk but I always thought neither belonged in the HHOF. Zubov over Housley for sure although both were a little light in their resumes for me as defensemen have a high standard. Andreychuk gets in and all of the sudden it lowers the bar - again. Or did Dick Duff already have it that low? Either way, two wrongs don't make a right.

The thing with Duff is that it didn't really lower the bar, because we already knew there was a fairly low bar for O6 dynasty players, or even just O6 players that were regarded as "warriors" and who the committee happened to have a soft spot for (Leo Boivin, Edgar Laprade, etc.). These were guys who were definitely well below the standard that had been (up to that point at least) applied to modern players. Clark Gillies would also fall into this category, and -arguably- Glenn Anderson (although he's probably a step up).

What's disconcerting about the Andreychuk and Housley inductions (and arguably Ciccarelli and maybe some others like Federko beforehand) is that it's a signal the HOF is going to be applying the same loose standard going forward to players with video game numbers from the 80s and 90s who played in an era with a lot of games, a high scoring environment, and low parity/depth that created a lot of patsy teams to beat up on. The big question is how low are we going to go in this era before the gravy train gets shut off?

Bernie Nicholls would basically be the point at which we've fully crossed the Rubicon, for me at least.

 

[Big Phil]

Because none of them have 600+ goals in their career. It shoudln't be reasoned like that, but it likely will be.

Brind'Amour would've been better induction than Andreychuk, IMO. Not that he would be good induction either.

I just wish they'd look at the 640 goals in context. It is one thing if you were a top notch scorer your whole career and retired shortly after you weren't scoring much anymore. Ciccarelli and Gartner both did this and this is why their goal totals look better in comparison than Andreychuk's. But they didn't see it this way. They ignored the fact that Andreychuk didn't score a heck of a lot the last 12 years of his career.

The thing with Duff is that it didn't really lower the bar, because we already knew there was a fairly low bar for O6 dynasty players, or even just O6 players that were regarded as "warriors" and who the committee happened to have a soft spot for (Leo Boivin, Edgar Laprade, etc.). These were guys who were definitely well below the standard that had been (up to that point at least) applied to modern players. Clark Gillies would also fall into this category, and -arguably- Glenn Anderson (although he's probably a step up).

What's disconcerting about the Andreychuk and Housley inductions (and arguably Ciccarelli and maybe some others like Federko beforehand) is that it's a signal the HOF is going to be applying the same loose standard going forward to players with video game numbers from the 80s and 90s who played in an era with a lot of games, a high scoring environment, and low parity/depth that created a lot of patsy teams to beat up on. The big question is how low are we going to go in this era before the gravy train gets shut off?

Bernie Nicholls would basically be the point at which we've fully crossed the Rubicon, for me at least.

Yes, we forget about Laprade sometimes. Boivin is a rare controversial choice as a defenseman. I like him, but if that's the case put Bob Baun in the HHOF. He doesn't fit even knowing that he was a punishing checker. I like Anderson in there because you had to notice him if you saw the Oilers dynasty. He hit the point where he played too well in too many important games that you couldn't ignore him. But the rest are just weak. I am not even totally sure if Nicholls is worse than Andreychuk. I honestly don't think he is. Not that I would put him in either, but it shows you how brutal Andreychuk's selection was.

 

[The Panther]

Now that Andreychuk is in, think about the distance between him and the truly elite skaters of his era (Gretzky, Bourque, Messier, Lemieux, etc.), with whom he now resides in the Hall of Fame.

That distance is akin to the distance between Andreychuck and... Gilbert Dionne?

I mean, the Hall of Fame is now obligated to look at Gary Leeman.




WHAT... were they thinking...???

 

[MXD]

The thing with Duff is that it didn't really lower the bar, because we already knew there was a fairly low bar for O6 dynasty players, or even just O6 players that were regarded as "warriors" and who the committee happened to have a soft spot for (Leo Boivin, Edgar Laprade, etc.). These were guys who were definitely well below the standard that had been (up to that point at least) applied to modern players. Clark Gillies would also fall into this category, and -arguably- Glenn Anderson (although he's probably a step up).

(...)

Bernie Nicholls would basically be the point at which we've fully crossed the Rubicon, for me at least.

What I wonder is why, exactly, Claude Provost isn't in the HHOF. I mean, he was at least really elite at something (checking) all the while scoring more with less opportunites that every damn questionnable O-6 inductees.

You got me wondering with Nicholls vs. Andreychuk.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The thing with Duff is that it didn't really lower the bar, because we already knew there was a fairly low bar for O6 dynasty players, or even just O6 players that were regarded as "warriors" and who the committee happened to have a soft spot for (Leo Boivin, Edgar Laprade, etc.). These were guys who were definitely well below the standard that had been (up to that point at least) applied to modern players. Clark Gillies would also fall into this category, and -arguably- Glenn Anderson (although he's probably a step up).

What's disconcerting about the Andreychuk and Housley inductions (and arguably Ciccarelli and maybe some others like Federko beforehand) is that it's a signal the HOF is going to be applying the same loose standard going forward to players with video game numbers from the 80s and 90s who played in an era with a lot of games, a high scoring environment, and low parity/depth that created a lot of patsy teams to beat up on. The big question is how low are we going to go in this era before the gravy train gets shut off?

Bernie Nicholls would basically be the point at which we've fully crossed the Rubicon, for me at least.

Every Hall of Fame puts in compilers as well as great players.

Regardless of era, only 13 players in the history of the game have scored more than Andreychuk's 640 goals. No one has scored more power play goals. The first player to come up on the leaders board for goals scored that is not in the Hall of Fame (or a sure thing to get in) is Keith Tkachuk, 538 goals, 32nd place.

Difficult to keep him out, I would think.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

I'm so happy that my two favorite players of all time are being inducted to the HHOF together! Selanne and Kariya are both deserving of this honour, as is Recchi.

However I, like most disagree with the selection of Andreychuk as he really only has the two accomplishments to his resume: The late Stanley Cup with Tampa Bay, and the shiny 640 goals.

To me the record for most power play goals means little because of the basic fact that its easier to score when playing with an extra skater on the ice... not complicated. Isn't the HHOF selection committee supposed to be the people who can cut through the stats and figure out those who are not worthy of selection based on the compiling of stats to make a resume look better?

Personally, I would have picked Alfredsson this year as he is clearly a superior player to Andreychuk and is definitely the face of the Senators franchise.

I also would have picked Cassie Campbell over Danielle Goyette, but overall I'm just happy the HHOF is progressive enough to recognize the accomplishments of the best female players.

I can't be to surprised about Jacobs as it seems half the reason the builders category exists is to just give an award to NHL franchise owners simply for owning a franchise. After reading about Clare Drake, he seems highly deserving of being inducted in the builders category.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm so happy that my two favorite players of all time are being inducted to the HHOF together! Selanne and Kariya are both deserving of this honour, as is Recchi.

However I, like most disagree with the selection of Andreychuk as he really only has the two accomplishments to his resume: The late Stanley Cup with Tampa Bay, and the shiny 640 goals.

To me the record for most power play goals means little because of the basic fact that its easier to score when playing with an extra skater on the ice... not complicated. Isn't the HHOF selection committee supposed to be the people who can cut through the stats and figure out those who are not worthy of selection based on the compiling of stats to make a resume look better?

Personally, I would have picked Alfredsson this year as he is clearly a superior player to Andreychuk and is definitely the face of the Senators franchise.

I also would have picked Cassie Campbell over Danielle Goyette, but overall I'm just happy the HHOF is progressive enough to recognize the accomplishments of the best female players.

I can't be to surprised about Jacobs as it seems half the reason the builders category exists is to just give an award to NHL franchise owners simply for owning a franchise. After reading about Clare Drake, he seems highly deserving of being inducted in the builders category.

Its easier for everyone, right?

But still Anderychuk has more than anyone else.

And they still count the same as other goals, correct? Game winner on the PP, still a game winner.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd possibly take Derian Hatcher over Andreychuk quite honestly, and I'd definitely take Brind'Amour. Also maybe guys like Adam Foote, Ulf Samuelsson, Kevin Lowe, Brad McCrimmon...

Oh and Sergei Zubov should probably be a Hall of Famer if both Housley and Andreychuk are in, for another name.

Derian Hatcher in his prime was easily a more important and bigger impact player than Andreychuk.

 

[DaveG]

I suspect that Andreychuk got in solely on his captaincy of the Cup-winning Lightning. An elder statesman who brought his team to the Holy Land is always a nice narrative, but mind you: this was the first time in a decade when the Cup was won by someone other than the Big Four. It's those "intangibles" that made Toews (undeservingly) the punchline of every joke. If that's the case, I am OK with him in the Hall. There is so much locker room stuff we don't know. And, of course, not everything can be measured by stats.

OK, that's fine, but then why wasn't a superior player in all facets aside from PP production, and a vastly superior post-season performer in Brind'Amour not inducted before him? Because Brind'Amour didn't stick around for a decade+ after his "best by date" compiling, and was unfortunate that his prime was in a lower scoring era?

 

[Zegras Zebra]

Its easier for everyone, right?

But still Anderychuk has more than anyone else.

And they still count the same as other goals, correct? Game winner on the PP, still a game winner.

Technically you're right, but I still see the record more as a trivial footnote, actually in the same category as GWG since you mention it.

 

[unknown33]

Bernie Nicholls would basically be the point at which we've fully crossed the Rubicon, for me at least.

Can't keep someone out who had a 150 points season. Look at the company he's in. There are only 4 players who had higher scoring seasons than Nicholls.