Hockey Analytics and the Edmonton Oilers. Does it even exist?

[Little Fury]

Analytics isn't why these teams are successful. They're successful because they use analytics as a tool ALONG with watching the players play the sport. How will looking at spreadsheets of numbers tell you how skilled the player is? Was Pouliot as good as his analytics? Fayne?

Skill is an input, results are an output.

 

[FlameChampion]

I think this really raises one of the big problems with the franchise. I am not a super believer in analytics but I definitely think there is some value in them. But my problem with this team, is that it just seems like they spend a ton of money on lots of things, like the arena, players, ice district, GM salary etc. But it just seems like when it comes to analytics, pro scouting, amateur scouting etc, it just seems like this team really cheaps out. It really feels, (especially the pro-scouting), that this team is stuck in Jurassic Park. Theres no next level thinking, the modernization of things, etc. It really feels like the team infrastructure is backwards. I just never get a sense that the organization is doing everything they can to improve the team. But honestly its hard to really know what the team does use or doesnt use because its not really all that transparent.

 

[bucks_oil]

Not here to dump on Bakersfield or disagree with your main premise - but the second statement isn’t true.
The Oilers had a great program in Hamilton, with players like Horcoff, Stoll, Pisani, Bergeron, and Conklin graduating to the big club.

Which isn't surprising when you recall that Claude Julien was our coach for a while in Hamilton.

 

[FlameChampion]

Further details on Oilers and analytics from Holland care of Daniel Nugent-Bowman of The Athletic

So all of the majority of their analytics comes off basically one guys opinion or how one guy spins the data. Based on some of the (pro) trades and signings that Holland has done, it doesnt seem like hes taking much of analytics into account. Its hard to know if the person doing the analytics is even doing a good job, based on the limited information that we have. Still it seems silly to me that a Billion Dollar Company uses a one man show for analytics and doesnt hire more scouts.

Maybe on the amateur side they do use analytics more or Holland listens to his staff more or they have better scouts. Amateur side seems a little stronger than the pro side (to me anyway).

 

[Oilhawks]

So all of the majority of their analytics comes off basically one guys opinion or how one guy spins the data. Based on some of the (pro) trades and signings that Holland has done, it doesnt seem like hes taking much of analytics into account. Its hard to know if the person doing the analytics is even doing a good job, based on the limited information that we have. Still it seems silly to me that a Billion Dollar Company uses a one man show for analytics and doesnt hire more scouts.

Maybe on the amateur side they do use analytics more or Holland listens to the guy more or they have better scouts. Amateur side seems a little stronger than the pro side (to me anyway).

Sounds more like they have one guy (technically two, the Mahe brothers, but I know some people think that siblings will have the same views on things ) that obtains the data and they look at it all together.

 

[Oilhawks]

The argument here really sounds like “if the Oilers had half a dozen guys pulling numbers I’d feel a lot more comfortable than them having only two that pull numbers”

I don’t care how many people are in the analytics department, I care how the information is used to target and procure players. I think we’ll know more this offseason now that Holland has some cap to spend

 

[FlameChampion]

This really sounds like “if the Oilers had half a dozen guys pulling numbers I’d feel a lot more comfortable than them having only two that pull numbers”

Honestly count me in lol. I would rather have a team of analytics rather than one guy (sometimes two) that does analytics. But its hard to know without knowing the specifics. If the one guy whos doing it, is awesome then, maybe a group would just get in his way. That being said, based on what Holland/Tippett have done to date, I dont have a lot of confidence that they maximizing their staff anyway. Who knows though, they only been here 2 years. All speculation from me, sitting behind my desk, with no information.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Yes... exactly..?

Thats like the whole point man. The argument is either a) Oilers dont use this tool as much as other teams or b) arent good at using this tool.

Well there's some people who think we should only be using analytics to get players and not actually watch them play.

 

[Little Fury]

The argument here really sounds like “if the Oilers had half a dozen guys pulling numbers I’d feel a lot more comfortable than them having only two that pull numbers”

I don’t care how many people are in the analytics department, I care how the information is used to target and procure players. I think we’ll know more this offseason now that Holland has some cap to spend

You don't think having more eyes on the information and more exchange of information and ideas is better than having one guy pull a third party report and hand it to the GM?

 

[Forgot About Drai]

Well there's some people who think we should only be using analytics to get players and not actually watch them play.

Yeah we agree there that is dumb.

Hockey isnt played on a spreadsheet. But I do advocate it to be a little bit more involved in the process, based on Holland and the orgs comments on it.

 

[Oilhawks]

You don't think having more eyes on the information and more exchange of information and ideas is better than having one guy pull a third party report and hand it to the GM?

I think that the variety of input on the interpretation of data is greatly exaggerated by some. Just because you have more people in a department doesn’t mean it’s more productive or efficient (many ‘real world’ examples of this). Pretty sure it’s been acknowledged that they’ve used and / or still use the services of third party companies for providing and interpreting data in addition.

If anything, I’d like the OEG to hire 3-4 more bodies just so they get more stamps of approval by fans on transactions.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Yeah we agree there that is dumb.

Hockey isnt played on a spreadsheet. But I do advocate it to be a little bit more involved in the process, based on Holland and the orgs comments on it.

I do think it should be used as well but analytics is not what we should rely on when drafting or signing players

 

[TheNumber4]

I wanted some clarity and progress on the Analytics front. And the Jackson has finally delivered (Recent Interview with Jeff Jackson):

What role does (senior director of data and analytics) Michael Parkatti (hired in September) play in scouting?

He’s been an excellent addition — him and Kevin Wall (senior cloud data architect who was hired in October to support the analytics group) work closely with Brad Holland and Justin Mahe (manager of hockey analytics) and Shaun Mahe (coordinator of hockey development). That group, along with Bill Scott, who manages our cap, are a cohesive unit.

They’ve done a really good job of ingesting data, sorting it, using it in a really positive, effective way for us. We just spent three days in meetings, and we could see anything we wanted on any player in the league. It was at our fingertips. They’ve done a great job.

 

[alphahelix]

I think that the variety of input on the interpretation of data is greatly exaggerated by some. Just because you have more people in a department doesn’t mean it’s more productive or efficient (many ‘real world’ examples of this). Pretty sure it’s been acknowledged that they’ve used and / or still use the services of third party companies for providing and interpreting data in addition.

If anything, I’d like the OEG to hire 3-4 more bodies just so they get more stamps of approval by fans on transactions.

We didnt have anyone with any technical expertise in database management, data analysis, mathematics, software engineering, etc prior to this season. Thats a huge blind spot that basically leaves you reading the guide and record book And debating its merits.

I don’t think we need Any more guys. The guys we have now should be able to do just about anything imaginable with datasets pertaining to the NHL. Maybe we could use more scouts who can capture or develop new datasets in feeder leagues but that could get crazy.

They’ve done a really good job of ingesting data, sorting it, using it in a really positive, effective way for us. We just spent three days in meetings, and we could see anything we wanted on any player in the league. It was at our fingertips. They’ve done a great job.

Where did that information come from? Whose opinion is that? Jackson?

 

[joestevens29]

We didnt have anyone with any technical expertise in database management, data analysis, mathematics, software engineering, etc prior to this season. Thats a huge blind spot that basically leaves you reading the guide and record book And debating its merits.

I don’t think we need Any more guys. The guys we have now should be able to do just about anything imaginable with datasets pertaining to the NHL. Maybe we could use more scouts who can capture or develop new datasets in feeder leagues but that could get crazy.



Where did that information come from? Whose opinion is that? Jackson?

I assume Daniel Nugent Bowman article. Apparently he had a sit down with Jackson and the article was released today.

 

[TheNumber4]

We didnt have anyone with any technical expertise in database management, data analysis, mathematics, software engineering, etc prior to this season. Thats a huge blind spot that basically leaves you reading the guide and record book And debating its merits.

I don’t think we need Any more guys. The guys we have now should be able to do just about anything imaginable with datasets pertaining to the NHL. Maybe we could use more scouts who can capture or develop new datasets in feeder leagues but that could get crazy.



Where did that information come from? Whose opinion is that? Jackson?

Jackson. From recent interview with Athletic. Sorry I should Edit in that Context.

 

[Bank Shot]

Pretty amazing that the Oilers have managed to be top 3 in the advanced stats all season despite having a team built using the guide and record books.

Next year they could be top 3 to the power of 5 if they use all the advanced stats!

 

[bucks_oil]

Jackson. From recent interview with Athletic. Sorry I should Edit in that Context.

It was a good article. Key takeaways:
1) Holland is one voice among Holland, Brad Holland, [someone else, can't remember] and Jackson
2) Analytics are a tool, allows them to debate merits of a player, but just one tool
3) It wasn't said, but it sounds like they are actively planning deadline adds, just waiting to see who falls out of contention (impacting supply)
4) Biggest strength of Knobloch was getting all of the guys in the lineup invested in a given role (aside: though we said the same about Woody last year)
5) Coffey has been great for the D, encouraging in a way they've responded very positively

 

[McDNicks17]

We didnt have anyone with any technical expertise in database management, data analysis, mathematics, software engineering, etc prior to this season. Thats a huge blind spot that basically leaves you reading the guide and record book And debating its merits.

I don’t think we need Any more guys. The guys we have now should be able to do just about anything imaginable with datasets pertaining to the NHL. Maybe we could use more scouts who can capture or develop new datasets in feeder leagues but that could get crazy.



Where did that information come from? Whose opinion is that? Jackson?

To be fair, you don't really need any of those to use analytics nowadays. The main selling point to the big firms that almost every team in the league hires is it's an entire platform that anyone can use. It's pretty rare for teams to track their own data now just because you likely won't find much that isn't tracked by firms and you definitely won't do a better job tracking it. The Leafs are the only one I've heard of that's still doing more than just a few niche stats.

It's definitely nice having some people with expertise to pass on ideas though. Guys on the technical side will come in handy for amateur scouting too. That's where you're dealing with more raw data.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

What's one thing we've done better or improved upon as a result of analytics?

 

[alphahelix]

To be fair, you don't really need any of those to use analytics nowadays. The main selling point to the big firms that almost every team in the league hires is it's an entire platform that anyone can use. It's pretty rare for teams to track their own data now just because you likely won't find much that isn't tracked by firms and you definitely won't do a better job tracking it. The Leafs are the only one I've heard of that's still doing more than just a few niche stats.

It's definitely nice having some people with expertise to pass on ideas though. Guys on the technical side will come in handy for amateur scouting too. That's where you're dealing with more raw data.

there are always new ways to look at things, recursion Models that can be adjusted so many ways to provide different angles, I would bet they are training AI to ask new questions of amateur scouting datasets, you need your own people that you can trust to help you see things in a new way. Obviously we don’t know what these services are providing with specificity, but when I’ve seen them present data , I.e. Megan Chayk’s firm, it has often been discussion of compilation of basic metrics they’re tracking… ive never seen them discuss anything particularly complex. Michael Parkatti has The technical expertise to ask new questions and answer them. Compiling data and cross referencing it is the tip of the iceberg. You’re right that looking at the same data as everyone else and sorting it from best to worst can only provide so much insight.

 

[TheNumber4]

What's one thing we've done better or improved upon as a result of analytics?

How we sposed to know, we’ve never had it till like 3 months ago.

 

[Stoneman89]

Can anyone tell me if we have a new replay guy in the box now? I know our old guy was lights out, but I've seen a couple calls he would have nailed the last few weeks, but nothing was called in.

 

[TheNumber4]

Can anyone tell me if we have a new replay guy in the box now? I know our old guy was lights out, but I've seen a couple calls he would have nailed the last few weeks, but nothing was called in.

Yeh last video guy quit (I think his name was Coupal), a new guy is in now…

Personally I think since we’re still paying Woody, he should come in and do that job plus video coach. This way he still gets his name on the cup.

 

[FlameChampion]

I wanted some clarity and progress on the Analytics front. And the Jackson has finally delivered (Recent Interview with Jeff Jackson):

What role does (senior director of data and analytics) Michael Parkatti (hired in September) play in scouting?

He’s been an excellent addition — him and Kevin Wall (senior cloud data architect who was hired in October to support the analytics group) work closely with Brad Holland and Justin Mahe (manager of hockey analytics) and Shaun Mahe (coordinator of hockey development). That group, along with Bill Scott, who manages our cap, are a cohesive unit.

They’ve done a really good job of ingesting data, sorting it, using it in a really positive, effective way for us. We just spent three days in meetings, and we could see anything we wanted on any player in the league. It was at our fingertips. They’ve done a great job.

Will be interesting to see what the Team does at the deadline and what kind of players they target .

They better be able to target some diamonds in the rough in the offseason with Browns overage coming into play as well.