Value of: Higher trade value - Parayko or Pesce (includes contracts)

[Rabid Ranger]

If he goes from underpaid to fairly paid he's still a tremendous asset. What does Pesce get as a UFA today? 6m? Trying to argue that a 6m player is at any point more value than a 9m player is mental gymnastics. Parayko is in a completely different class of player than Pesce and would be re-signed by any team that trades for him.

And comparing Parayko to Trouba, based on mental ability to handle #1D minutes sounds like it's entirely conjecture and made up. He could also pull a Ryan Suter and be entirely elite on his own. He's miles better than Trouba anyways, so I think the comparison is bunk.

I think you're overrating Parayko quite a bit here. What is it about him as a player that creates this chasm between he and Pesce? It's not physicality or offense.

 

[Colt55]

This is exactly my argument for my team not trading the farm for Parayko. I am very nervous about contract demands on that next deal. The Vlasics and Subbans of the world frighten me.

Also what makes you thin car is going to trade pesce or that they won't ask for as much as parayko.

 

[Colt55]

I know i blew.this one up. Merlin let me say this. How long has toronto been trying to get a cup. At this point do you want to keep the windo open for as long as possible or go for it and get the cuo back to toronto. As a blues fan who went 50years ( me 37 lol) without one. I am happy that armstrong pulled the trigger and got schenn, orielly tarasenko ect and now we have a cup

 

[sfvega]

No need to get defensive, we both know it's very, very likely he signs with StL and retires a Blue. We're just trying to figure out value in here, none of it is really reasonable.

Nah, when you're comparing him to Trouba, you're not objectively trying to figure out value. You're trying to make the argument that he isn't worth what people think he should be. You're talking about a 6'6 defenseman who has drawn top match-ups and been pretty easily a top 5 defensive defenseman in the game the last 2 years. You can argue the contract status vs. Pesce, you can argue with Colt over what the return should be, but when you question what he is and what he's done on the ice it really just makes you look not very credible.

 

[Merrrlin]

Nah, when you're comparing him to Trouba, you're not objectively trying to figure out value. You're trying to make the argument that he isn't worth what people think he should be. You're talking about a 6'6 defenseman who has drawn top match-ups and been pretty easily a top 5 defensive defenseman in the game the last 2 years. You can argue the contract status vs. Pesce, you can argue with Colt over what the return should be, but when you question what he is and what he's done on the ice it really just makes you look not very credible.

I certainly was not comparing him to Trouba in terms of gameplay or value. You may want to re-read that post.

 

[Merrrlin]

I know i blew.this one up. Merlin let me say this. How long has toronto been trying to get a cup. At this point do you want to keep the windo open for as long as possible or go for it and get the cuo back to toronto. As a blues fan who went 50years ( me 37 lol) without one. I am happy that armstrong pulled the trigger and got schenn, orielly tarasenko ect and now we have a cup

What on earth does Toronto's past failures have to do with Parayko's value today?

 

[LeafGrief]

I think you're overrating Parayko quite a bit here. What is it about him as a player that creates this chasm between he and Pesce? It's not physicality or offense.

?
This year - Parayko had 28 points in 64 games, Pesce had 18 in 61. Pesce slightly outscored Parayko last year (Parayko had a career worst 28p in 80 games), but Parayko has outscored him in every other year. Parayko's career point totals are 33 in 79, 35 in 81, 35 in 82, 28 in 80, and this year's 28 in 64. Pesce's career best is last year's 29 and was consistently a ~20 point player every year before that. Parayko is very clearly a better offensive player than Pesce.

 

[sfvega]

I certainly was not comparing him to Trouba in terms of gameplay or value. You may want to re-read that post.

Oh, so you meant that when he's got a bigger contract and the expectation to perform every night that he'll rise to the occasion and be great? Uh huh, sure.

 

[Colt55]

I think you're overrating Parayko quite a bit here. What is it about him as a player that creates this chasm between he and Pesce? It's not physicality or offense.

Just look at advanced stats. Thats all you need. Also parayko is deployed in all the defensive areas vs offensive. Doesnt get much pp time. Most used on pk. That can skew his points.

 

[Merrrlin]

Oh, so you meant that when he's got a bigger contract and the expectation to perform every night that he'll rise to the occasion and be great? Uh huh, sure.

The comparison I am making is that perceptions of value change when players sign their first big contracts. It's a very basic point, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how great Parayko has been over his career.

If you think he will have the same value at 8m/29 years old that he does at 5.5m, then we have a very significant difference in philosophy when it comes to evaluating players.

 

[Colt55]

What on earth does Toronto's past failures have to do with Parayko's value today?

Look I am not trying to rub that in your face. I am meerly asking do you want a cup or do you want the longest window possible. So far two years with the same young super talented core and nothing. You lack the pesce/ parayko to finish the puzzle. So my question is do you pony up pay the price and go for it. Or hold onto your assets and try the long road approach. Thats all I'm saying. I am not attacking you.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I think Parayko is better, but Carolina can afford to take on more cap, increasing Peace's trade options.

 

[Merrrlin]

Look I am not trying to rub that in your face. I am meerly asking do you want a cup or do you want the longest window possible. So far two years with the same young super talented core and nothing. You lack the pesce/ parayko to finish the puzzle. So my question is do you pony up pay the price and go for it. Or hold onto your assets and try the long road approach. Thats all I'm saying. I am not attacking you.

My opinion is that Toronto does not get net better if they deal Marner or Nylander for one of those two, especially with retention.

They would definitely get net better today if it was a futures deal, but I am not of the philosophy that teams should make those trades until they are positive they are ready for a deep run.

The puzzle requires more than just one piece at the moment.

This doesn't need to be another Leafs thread, though. We have enough of those. I am much more interested in which of these players has a higher value to the community.

 

[sfvega]

The comparison I am making is that perceptions of value change when players sign their first big contracts. It's a very basic point, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how great Parayko has been over his career.

If you think he will have the same value at 8m/29 years old that he does at 5.5m, then we have a very significant difference in philosophy when it comes to evaluating players.

I mean, another Leaf fan already put you in your place and I don't think you're arguing in good faith about Trouba. There is no positive connotation to that when you could have easily compared him to players who actually lived up to those same expectations you brought up after a raise. And if you're acquiring a player like Parayko long-term, isn't he MORE valuable and not less valuable? It just comes off as the normal down talking we see about Parayko from Leafs fans, which is insane. The people who ask about Parayko the most is Leafs fans. The people who downplay Parayko's value the most are Leafs fans. It happens consistently, and yes it does clearly seem like you think it's Pesce here and want to make your point by nitpicking at Parayko.

 

[Merrrlin]

I mean, another Leaf fan already put you in your place and I don't think you're arguing in good faith about Trouba. There is no positive connotation to that when you could have easily compared him to players who actually lived up to those same expectations you brought up after a raise. And if you're acquiring a player like Parayko long-term, isn't he MORE valuable and not less valuable? It just comes off as the normal down talking we see about Parayko from Leafs fans, which is insane. The people who ask about Parayko the most is Leafs fans. The people who downplay Parayko's value the most are Leafs fans. It happens consistently, and yes it does clearly seem like you think it's Pesce here and want to make your point by nitpicking at Parayko.

Scorching hot take.

Leaf fans aren't downplaying Parayko's value. I, and individual poster here, am questioning giving up the future for a defenseman signed for 2 years, and will be wanting a retirement contract at age 29 that will extend beyond his mid 30's.

Blues likely keep him, but this thread isn't about that OR about the Leafs. Please don't derail it in that direction, the Parayko thread makes a lot more sense for that kind of conversation.

 

[Schemp]

Pesce because of contract and term.
Parayko for my team's need.
I think both on my team could potentially save the team as long as we don't have to give up any value.

 

[CherryToke]

Pesce is better.

Parayko looks lost without Bouwmeester covering for him. Covid excuse is nonsense

 

[sfvega]

Scorching hot take.

View attachment 367829

Leaf fans aren't downplaying Parayko's value. I, and individual poster here, am questioning giving up the future for a defenseman signed for 2 years, and will be wanting a retirement contract at age 29 that will extend beyond his mid 30's.

Blues likely keep him, but this thread isn't about that OR about the Leafs. Please don't derail it in that direction, the Parayko thread makes a lot more sense for that kind of conversation.

And yet your first post in here to a poster who says it's easily Parayko is to argue for Pesce.

You also argue that the biggest risk about him is that he won't re-sign then turn around to say that his value is less if you extend him. Yes, he would get a raise, but if you're talking about acquiring a top defenseman in his prime for the foreseeable future, doesn't that mean you came out ahead?

It's not about individual Leafs fans when you notice a trend in all the Parayko discussions over the course of years and many posters. I'm not saying all Leafs fans, but the ones who are in it for longer than a few replies always end up talking down the value, and all I'm saying is it's a very thinly-veiled tactic. These aren't real negotiations. There is no value to saying "Well, there's a scratch on the hood and I really don't like these wheels" when neither of you are in the car-buying process. If you think the price is more than the Leafs are willing to pay, it's whatever. But trying to talk down the value of a guy who no one on the fanbase wants to trade is just kinda funny and cliche.

 

[Merrrlin]

And yet your first post in here to a poster who says it's easily Parayko is to argue for Pesce.

Because I don't think it's "easily" anyone...The results agree - it's nearly an exact split.

You also argue that the biggest risk about him is that he won't re-sign then turn around to say that his value is less if you extend him. Yes, he would get a raise, but if you're talking about acquiring a top defenseman in his prime for the foreseeable future, doesn't that mean you came out ahead?

That is correct, there are two large risks involved:
1. He may not re-sign.
2. He will demand a high AAV and a long term to make up for the team friendly deal he is currently on. This is a risk for any player near age 30, not just Parayko.

It's not about individual Leafs fans when you notice a trend in all the Parayko discussions over the course of years and many posters. I'm not saying all Leafs fans, but the ones who are in it for longer than a few replies always end up talking down the value, and all I'm saying is it's a very thinly-veiled tactic. These aren't real negotiations. There is no value to saying "Well, there's a scratch on the hood and I really don't like these wheels" when neither of you are in the car-buying process. If you think the price is more than the Leafs are willing to pay, it's whatever. But trying to talk down the value of a guy who no one on the fanbase wants to trade is just kinda funny and cliche.

There is no trend. On the Leafs board, most fans would give up the moon for Parayko. It's a shame you've made this into yet ANOTHER fanbase shaming topic, though. The discussion about the players would have been much more interesting.

Discussing very real risks in acquiring a player is not "talking down" their value. Parayko type situations are huge organizational risks, and that goes for any sport. This isn't the first time a very good but aging player is about to hit the jackpot on their next contract and opposing fans are leery. The same discussions were happening when Vlasic signed, same discussions around Trouba, Doughty, Karlsson, etc. No one is picking on your guy.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Which one would you rather have on your team competing for the cup

That isn't what the poll asked, the poll asked for trade value, which means contract comparisons are not only valid, but almost as relevant as player quality comparisons.

Parakyo may be slightly better than Pesce, but I find it hard to believe this is enough to overcome the difference in price and contract length.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The irony in seeing a hidden motive for this thread is that Leafs fans are Pesce's biggest critics.

 

[Colt55]

Pesce is better.

Parayko looks lost without Bouwmeester covering for him. Covid excuse is nonsense

Lol ok cause he had jaybo all season.... right

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

I think if they're traded right now, Parayko would have a slight bit more value. But Parayko's value will drop due to his remaining term, while Pesce's won't drop.

Pesce is better.

Parayko looks lost without Bouwmeester covering for him. Covid excuse is nonsense

Based off his performance in the playoffs in which the entire team looked off? I guess we shouldn't include the 15 games in the regular season after Bouwmeester went down where his play didn't drop off?

 

[Double Dion]

I hate the Blues, but Parayko is the better player in every regard. Pesce is good and I don't want to slag him, but he's not in the same category. He's a 2nd pairing guy. Parayko is a top pairing guy.