HHOVG (Hockey Hall of Very Good)

[trentmccleary]

The problem with games played in the 80's though is that everybody is so much lower. There were only 7 seasons above 65 GP for the whole decade; that probably happens in a season now.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Just for fun, and doesn't tell us much sometimes since they're all different ages, but:

THN top-20 goalie rankings:

Name | 1994 (only top-6 known) | 1995 | 1996 | 1997 | 1998 | 1999 | 2000 | 2001 | 2002 | 2003
Barrasso | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | 9 | 12 | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A
Joseph | 6 | 11 | 6 | 5 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 15
Vanbiesbrouck | N/A | 10 | 4 | 6 | 11 | 14 | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A
Richter | N/A | 13 | 5 | 3 | 6 | 7 | 13 | N/A | N/A | N/A
Vernon | N/A | 18 | N/A | 16 | 13 | 16 | 19 | N/A | N/A | N/A

nice to know, but i think what it tells us is that vanbiesbrouck is impressive for being (probably) considered a top guy in the 80s/early 90s, when barrasso and vernon were at their peak, and again in the mid-to-late 90s, when cujo and richter were at their best.

but what anyone thought of vernon and barrasso post-1995 doesn't tell us anything about vernon or barrasso except that their primes weren't crazy long like beezer or patrick roy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The problem with games played in the 80's though is that everybody is so much lower. There were only 7 seasons above 65 GP for the whole decade; that probably happens in a season now.

i was looking at games played relative to the league leaders, not just raw games played numbers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

and at the end of my work diversion today, ftr i just want to say that i in no way shape or form am suggesting that vernon > cujo in an all-time or career sense. just that if i knew i had a competitive team and had to pick one guy for a decade, i might take vernon for the crapshoot of the right years landing at the right time than cujo's steady a-minusness.

 

[seventieslord]

The problem with games played in the 80's though is that everybody is so much lower. There were only 7 seasons above 65 GP for the whole decade; that probably happens in a season now.

to be fair though, he was specifically taking about the GP rankings of these goalies.

 

[trentmccleary]

Just for fun, and doesn't tell us much sometimes since they're all different ages, but:

THN top-20 goalie rankings:

Name | 1994 (only top-6 known) | 1995 | 1996 | 1997 | 1998 | 1999 | 2000 | 2001 | 2002 | 2003
Barrasso | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | 9 | 12 | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A
Joseph | 6 | 11 | 6 | 5 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 15
Vanbiesbrouck | N/A | 10 | 4 | 6 | 11 | 14 | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A
Richter | N/A | 13 | 5 | 3 | 6 | 7 | 13 | N/A | N/A | N/A
Vernon | N/A | 18 | N/A | 16 | 13 | 16 | 19 | N/A | N/A | N/A

My question/ perception here is... does CuJo post those highs and garner the same or slightly better Vezina voting if he doesn't go to Toronto in his early-30's?

Because... and I do recall how much Toronto improved when he came in.

But his voting record over the 7 seasons between 24yo-30yo is the same or slightly less than it is in the 4 years in Toronto. Now that seems maybe a little questionable because he had the supporting stats/ranks before he got to Toronto... but not so much during his tenure.

 

[seventieslord]

My question/ perception here is... does CuJo post those highs and garner the same or slightly better Vezina voting if he doesn't go to Toronto in his early-30's?

Because... and I do recall how much Toronto improved when he came in.

But his voting record over the 7 seasons between 24yo-30yo is the same or slightly less than it is in the 4 years in Toronto. Now that seems maybe a little questionable because he had the supporting stats/ranks before he got to Toronto... but not so much during his tenure.

I think he was rightly known as the 3rd-7th best goalie in the years leading up to his move to Toronto, and while in Toronto he did nothing to change that.

 

[MS]

seriously? vernon has the superior regular season record, playoff record, trophy case, longevity, and career numbers. from where i sit, the only thing richter has is international play.

now i think richter had very high peaks, the likes of which cujo never hit for a whole playoff run/tournament, and maybe even barrasso never quite hit. but i think beezer hit those in '94 and '96, and vernon in '89 and '97 (and, by legend, also '86, but i didn't watch that playoff run).

are you guys sure we're not remembering vernon's lows a little too much because they were so low, and forgetting how high his highs were?

I think that Vernon was a below-average goalie for pretty much his entire Calgary run save the 1988-89 season and the Cinderella '86 playoff run, and the weakest link on that team and the reason they didn't win more series and more championships.

After leaving Calgary, he did nothing really of note save for his '97 run behind a stacked team.

To me, he's a kinda crappy goalie with some high blips behind good teams. I rate him closer to Bill Ranford than I do to most of the guys we're talking about here.

 

[trentmccleary]

i was looking at games played relative to the league leaders, not just raw games played numbers.

Oh for sure. I just kind of look back and assume that was more accepted at the time and try not to judge... like the things your older relatives might occasionally say.

I ran the 3 seasons up to and including, looking for sub-3.00 GAA's. I found 8 with 40 or more games, but only 1 played more than 46. Smith on with 46GP in 82, than Peeters' beastly 62gp win in 1983.

 

[trentmccleary]

I think he was rightly known as the 3rd-7th best goalie in the years leading up to his move to Toronto, and while in Toronto he did nothing to change that.

Between that chart and the Vezina voting though, it looks like CuJo's esteem was rising at the same time that his actual performance was declining.

 

[seventieslord]

Between that chart and the Vezina voting though, it looks like CuJo's esteem was rising at the same time that his actual performance was declining.

I think that 3-4-3 is quite accurate and reflects his level of performance, and his esteem declines (7-15) when his performance does.

 

[HawkNut]

nice to know, but i think what it tells us is that vanbiesbrouck is impressive for being (probably) considered a top guy in the 80s/early 90s, when barrasso and vernon were at their peak, and again in the mid-to-late 90s, when cujo and richter were at their best.

but what anyone thought of vernon and barrasso post-1995 doesn't tell us anything about vernon or barrasso except that their primes weren't crazy long like beezer or patrick roy.

Barrasso still had some solid years. 1997-98 stands out.

 

[HawkNut]

the other thing i wonder about this group, and this is an open question to everyone, is about 1980s vezina wins. namely, barrasso's and beezer's. do we hold those in the same esteem as a 90s roy or belfour vezina win? or do we say, "well someone had to win it in the 80s..."

like, i see '84 barrasso's argument when you look at his GAA and SV% numbers, but when a guy plays 18 fewer games than the league leader and is tied for 16th overall, i feel like you have to have hasek numbers to really deserve a vezina that can be held in the same breath as a "modern" vezina. and when you're winning it a hair over reggie lemelin and pat riggin, it's hard not to say "well an average year by cujo, one of vernon's non-sucky years, one of richter's good seasons could have won it too."

and '86 beezer is kind of the opposite. he has the games played, the wins, he's a workhorse. but he's not in the neighbourhood of the best in the averaging stats and his team was by far the worst to make it in to the playoffs in the wales conference so how much value did he really add?

is it just the case that in some of those '80s years there wasn't a pelle lindbergh-type guy, or an '89 vernon, who was both a workhorse and a statistical giant? and if so, how can we hold those against '90s seasons where you have belfour, roy, hasek, brodeur, cujo, etc, who were highly competitive in games played, wins, GAA, and SV%?

If Barrasso had been a fluke that one season, maybe, but he wasn't and later would produce more Vezina caliber seasons.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Adam foote is a guy I think gets overlooked by the selection committee one of the best defensive d-men to ever play the game, he's tied with numinenn, and steve duschene on the best two way d-men not in the hall, the one thing that I don't get why the hell is mogilny not in I mean he's what a joke that hes not in. He's second among Russian players in points.

 

[Giotrapani91]

And a player I know that's overlooked is Claude Lemieux I mean the guy has 80 playoff points in all his apperances, a conn smythe which should've gone to brodeur, I mean he's one that's hard to argue with 4 cups with three different teams. He's on the border imo,

 

[HawkNut]

Adam foote is a guy I think gets overlooked by the selection committee one of the best defensive d-men to ever play the game, he's tied with numinenn, and steve duschene on the best two way d-men not in the hall, the one thing that I don't get why the hell is mogilny not in I mean he's what a joke that hes not in. He's second among Russian players in points.

Mogilny is someone I've warmed up to. If it was the NHL Hall of Fame, I would say no. Since it's the Hockey Hall of Fame and if international counts, that pushes him over the top for me.

 

[The Panther]

I think that Vernon was a below-average goalie for pretty much his entire Calgary run save the 1988-89 season and the Cinderella '86 playoff run, and the weakest link on that team and the reason they didn't win more series and more championships.

After leaving Calgary, he did nothing really of note save for his '97 run behind a stacked team.

Mike Vernon is difficult. He certainly was awesome when he came in for Calgary midway through 1985-86 -- his presence basically rescued the team from a disastrous slump -- and then he rode this play all the way into the Cup Finals, after upsetting Edmonton. The thing is, the Flames beat Winnipeg (terrible that year) and St.Louis (barely, after blowing huge leads), neither of which was a major achievement. In the Edmonton series, Vernon was good, but hardly great. And he lost to Montreal, a defence-first team.

1988-89 is likely his finest hour, as you say. He was probably getting a lot more high-quality chances against than, say, Patrick Roy was the same season, but even so his stats don't strike you as someone who'd have a 37-6 record. Likewise, in the playoffs (though he did save Calgary's bacon against Vancouver... although they never should have been in a game-7 in the first place).

The 1997 Conn Smythe is one of those team-awards that had to fall to one individual, so it went to him. He was great, but if voters went back, 20 years later, to re-watch those games and re-vote, I'm not sure he's getting that.

Most of his career was solid but not very spectacular, with all those noted playoff disappointments in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 1994 with Calgary. Those were all pretty bad... but the Flames' goaltending was even worse in 1995 with Trevor Kidd.

So, Vernon's a tough one to evaluate. Still, he won 385 RS games and 77 playoff games, and has 2 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe. Not bad.

 

[Theokritos]

Adam foote is a guy I think gets overlooked by the selection committee one of the best defensive d-men to ever play the game, he's tied with numinenn, and steve duschene on the best two way d-men not in the hall, the one thing that I don't get why the hell is mogilny not in I mean he's what a joke that hes not in. He's second among Russian players in points.

What?

 

[Giotrapani91]

Personally with kariya in now idk who will be in next years class brodeur and Alfie are shoe ins, Marty St. Louis will go in just not on the first ballot. Mogilny I could see happening. If not him then if you induct a d-man Id go zubov, or Adam foote, I know foote getting in would be weird but he was the face of the Colorado defense for so long, now if I were to induct a winger other than mogilny it be Claude Lemieux guy has what 80 playoff points I meam how is that not deserving, now if I were to go with a center it be carbonneau, or if you put another goalie in that class put osgood in, he did a whole lot in his career he was the reason the isles won those two seasons he was there. When he was in st. Louis he had one winning season. He was second in the vezina voting in 1996. And played in 2 all star games. If not osgood then put Vernon in 385 wins I mean he won a cup with a really mediocre Calgary team only I think 4 hall of famers on that team with Mullen, macinnis, gilmour, & Lanny McDonald, fleury still has yet to get the call, and Vernon Won a cup here in Detroit won the Conn smythe trophy I mean yeah fedorov could've won it but it's hard to argue.

 

[Neutrinos]

Why is Alfie a "shoe in"?

What on earth did he accomplish during his career that makes him more worthy of induction than say, Pierre Turgeon?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Why is Alfie a "shoe in"?

What on earth did he accomplish during his career that makes him more worthy of induction than say, Pierre Turgeon?

Personally, I've looked at both of their careers quite closely recently.

I think Turgeon is underrated by many. He was a consistent prolific point-producer for a long time even if his peak wasn't that high. His peak wasn't exactly LOW, either; he did score 58 goals and 130+ points in a season, albeit it was in the inflated AF 1992-1993 season. Still, you can't just brush aside a 58 goal season.

Alfredsson was putting up a point-per-game pace over about 70/70+ games during the dead puck era. If it hadn't been for injuries, the guy could have hit 80 points quite a few more times.

Overall, it's a close call between, but Alf stands out more because he's Swedish (and happened to win Gold with Team Sweden) and is the face of a franchise.

Pierre was more of a journey-man type who happened to be from a country that has many players in the HOF who were as good or better.

 

[trentmccleary]

Why is Alfie a "shoe in"?

What on earth did he accomplish during his career that makes him more worthy of induction than say, Pierre Turgeon?

Leading Scorers per Draft Decade (in order of career points, bold indicates HHoF'er):
1971-80
Messier, Dionne, Bourque, Coffey, Trottier, Kurri, Lafleur, D.Savard, Gartner, Murphy, Nicholls, Goulet, Federko, Bossy, Anderson, D.Taylor, Potvin, B.Smith, D.Hunter, Larmer, L.McDonald, Propp, Middleton, Robinson, N.Broten

1981-90
Jagr, Francis, Yzerman, Lemieux, Sakic, Recchi, Selanne, Gilmour, Hawerchuk, Robitaille, Hull, Modano, Shanahan, Sundin, Andreychuk, Turgeon, MacInnis, Housley, Roenick, Damphousse, Brind'Amour, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Nieuwendyk, Fleury

1991-2000 top-20 highest scoring forwards & M.St.Louis.

Regular Season: raw career numbers and seasons hitting benchmarks

Reg. S.|GP|G|A|Pts|GPG|PPG|70+pts|30+ G|PPG|.5 GPG
Forsberg|708|249|636|885|0.35|1.25|7|2|10|0
Kariya|989|402|587|989|0.41|1.00|7|7|6|2
Datsyuk|953|314|604|918|0.33|0.96|5|3|7|0
Thornton|1446|384|1007|1391|0.27|0.96|12|2|8|1
Alfredsson|1246|444|713|1157|0.36|0.93|10|4|8|2
St.Louis|1134|391|642|1033|0.34|0.91|8|7|6|1
Zetterberg|1000|326|578|904|0.33|0.90|5|4|6|3
Hossa|1309|525|609|1134|0.40|0.87|7|8|4|3
Iginla|1554|625|675|1300|0.40|0.84|7|12|5|5
B.Richards|1126|298|634|932|0.26|0.83|6|0|3|0
Elias|1240|408|617|1025|0.33|0.83|5|4|4|0
H.Sedin|1248|237|784|1021|0.19|0.82|8|0|3|0
D.Sedin|1225|370|616|986|0.30|0.80|7|4|4|1
Whitney|1330|385|679|1064|0.29|0.80|5|2|1|0
Lecavalier|1212|421|528|949|0.35|0.78|5|5|2|1
Kovalev|1316|430|599|1029|0.33|0.78|4|4|3|1
Naslund|1117|395|474|869|0.35|0.78|5|6|4|2
Arnott|1244|417|521|938|0.34|0.75|2|3|0|1
Marleau|1493|508|574|1082|0.34|0.72|6|7|3|2
Doan|1540|402|570|972|0.26|0.63|2|2|0|0
Lindros|760|372|493|865|0.49|1.14|8|7|9|7

10 Best Era-Adjusted seasons (hockey-reference) [seasons selected by PPG, min. 27GP]

10yr EA Avg|EAGP|EA-G|EA-Pts|EAGPG|EAPPG
Forsberg|67|26|91|0.39|1.35
Kariya|78|35|88|0.45|1.12
Datsyuk|74|29|83|0.39|1.12
Thornton|79|28|97|0.36|1.23
Alfredsson|73|33|84|0.45|1.15
St.Louis|81|35|94|0.43|1.16
Zetterberg|71|29|76|0.40|1.06
Hossa|78|38|83|0.49|1.06
Iginla|80|44|88|0.55|1.11
B.Richards|77|24|77|0.32|1.00
Elias|71|30|74|0.43|1.04
H.Sedin|81|19|86|0.23|1.05
D.Sedin|79|31|83|0.40|1.05
Whitney|76|28|74|0.37|0.98
Lecavalier|77|35|78|0.45|1.01
Kovalev|73|31|73|0.42|0.99
Naslund|80|36|80|0.46|1.00
Arnott|70|28|63|0.40|0.90
Marleau|81|35|74|0.44|0.93
Doan|77|29|66|0.37|0.86
Lindros|63|37|83|0.58|1.32

Playoffs|GP|G|A|Pts|GPG|PPG|.5 GPG|1.00 PPG|Series|1.20+|1.00-1.19|.67-.86|.4-.6|0.40<|%>=1.00
Forsberg|151|64|107|171|0.42|1.13|2|9|27|12|7|4|1|3|0.704
Lindros|53|24|33|57|0.45|1.08|3|3|12|4|3|2|2|1|0.583
Zetterberg|137|57|63|120|0.42|0.88|4|6|24|4|7|5|5|3|0.458
Kariya|46|16|23|39|0.35|0.85|1|4|10|3|1|1|4|0|0.400
St.Louis|107|42|48|90|0.39|0.84|4|4|18|4|4|4|4|2|0.444
Iginla|81|37|31|68|0.46|0.84|5|3|14|2|3|6|2|1|0.357
Kovalev|123|45|55|100|0.37|0.81|4|3|22|3|6|4|6|3|0.409
Alfredsson|124|51|49|100|0.41|0.81|5|6|24|6|5|6|3|4|0.458
Elias|162|45|80|125|0.28|0.77|3|5|29|3|7|9|3|7|0.345
Thornton|160|27|96|123|0.17|0.77|0|3|28|4|6|7|8|3|0.357
Lecavalier|75|26|30|56|0.35|0.75|1|2|13|2|2|4|2|3|0.308
H.Sedin|105|23|55|78|0.22|0.74|1|4|18|2|5|4|4|3|0.389
Hossa|205|52|97|149|0.25|0.73|1|1|37|5|6|10|10|6|0.297
Datsyuk|157|42|71|113|0.27|0.72|2|4|29|3|7|6|7|6|0.345
B.Richards|146|37|68|105|0.25|0.72|3|3|25|3|5|6|4| 7|0.320
D.Sedin|102|25|46|71|0.25|0.70|0|3|18|3|2|5|6|2|0.278
Naslund|52|14|22|36|0.27|0.69|0|2|8|1|2|0|3|2|0.375
Marleau|177|68|52|120|0.38|0.68|4|2|31|5|4|7|5|7|0.290
Arnott|122|32|41|73|0.26|0.60|0|0|23|0|3|6|7|7|0.130
Doan|55|15|13|28|0.27|0.51|1|1|11|1|0|4|2|4|0.091
Whitney|108|21|32|53|0.19|0.49|0|0|19|0|1|5|4|9|0.053

Olympics|GP|G|Pts|GPG|PPG
Hossa|19|14|28|0.74|1.47
Alfredsson|26|13|27|0.50|1.04
Forsberg|22|3|20|0.14|0.91
Datsyuk|23|5|20|0.22|0.87
Kariya|14|6|11|0.43|0.79
Naslund|4|2|3|0.50|0.75
Iginla|19|10|14|0.53|0.74
Marleau|13|2|9|0.15|0.69
D.Sedin|18|3|12|0.17|0.67
B.Richards|6|2|4|0.33|0.67
Kovalev|22|8|13|0.36|0.59
Elias|13|3|7|0.23|0.54
Zetterberg|17|5|9|0.29|0.53
Lecavalier|6|0|3|0.00|0.50
Doan|6|2|3|0.33|0.50
H.Sedin|12|3|6|0.25|0.50
Thornton|13|2|5|0.15|0.38
St.Louis|11|2|3|0.18|0.27
Arnott|0|0|0|0.00|0.00
Whitney|0|0|0|0.00|0.00
Lindros|20|8|17|0.40|0.85

____________________________________________________
Additionally,
Top-15 scorers in any given decade 1-10 inducted into the HHOF from 1921 to 2000:
Average = 12 inductees out of 15
Low: 9 inductees (1970's)
High: 15 inductees (1980's)
Recent: 11 (1990's - not counting Jagr, Turgeon, Fleury, Roenick)

2001-2010 in order of most points:
Thornton, Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, St.Louis, Lecavalier, Kovalchuk, Jagr, B Richards, Heatley, Kovalev, Naslund, Datsyuk, M Savard & Elias.

So even if they go with the low of 9 players, which 6 get left out?

 

[GlitchMarner]

2001-2010 in order of most points:
Thornton, Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, St.Louis, Lecavalier, Kovalchuk, Jagr, B Richards, Heatley, Kovalev, Naslund, Datsyuk, M Savard & Elias.

So even if they go with the low of 9 players, which 6 get left out?

1. Savard. I was a fan of his. He put together some very nice seasons. There's no enough there to make him HOF-worthy. Damn Matt Cooke, though.

2. Heatley. Yeah... this guy's not getting in. Fell off badly before really being all that old. Was one-dimensional anyway. I never saw too much to his game personally. He could barely skate... for a supposed super star. He had an excellent one-timer and could clean up around the net. Scored tons of garbage goals. Was a good passer as well and he could carry the puck all right despite his lack of speed/lackluster skating. He wasn't good at all defensively, though, and didn't seem to have intangibles. Cried his out of Ottawa. Plus there was the whole Snyder thing. He didn't achieve all that much, really.

3. Kovalchuk. He would have made it if he hadn't gone to the KHL. He still can, but I doubt he'll be close to the same player he was in his prime when he does come back. Was a point-per-game player despite spending his best years on a garbage team, but he didn't win enough to stand out for guy who didn't play 900 NHL games.

4. Kovalev. Inconsistent. Had some great seasons/moments but didn't put it all together often enough. He was actually quite good in the playoffs. I don't know... I don't think he'll be inducted.

5. Lecavalier. Upper middle-class man's Kovalev. Was legitimately a top three player in the NHL, albeit VERY briefly.

6. My boy Brad Richards. He carved out a very, very good career for himself for a guy who was supposed to not make it as an NHL'er.

The stupid **** lockouts basically screwed him over. The first one robbed him of a prime season and probably 80+ points. The second one really marked the beginning of the end for him.

He could probably have scored at least 45-50 points as a 19 year old in the NHL if TB had let him play instead of keeping him in the QMJHL.

Without the lockouts, he finishes with over 1000 points and probably gets in eventually.

If they do induct Vinny or Brad, I can see Lecavalier being selected instead of him (like usual) even though I'd rather have Richards if I was picking one of them for my team, and I'd be okay with that. I'd rather have Richards be remembered as a deserving Hall of Very Good player who could have been a HHOF'er than as a forced or weak sort of induction.



The rest of these guys should be Hall of Famers. I think some may not realize how good the careers of Elias and Alfredsson were without really analyzing their careers in detail.

Naslund will get in based on his peak and decent longevity, but I think he'll be a lower-tier induction. The others are obvious choices.

 

[Giotrapani91]

1. Savard. I was a fan of his. He put together some very nice seasons. There's no enough there to make him HOF-worthy. Damn Matt Cooke, though.

2. Heatley. Yeah... this guy's not getting in. Fell off badly before really being all that old. Was one-dimensional anyway. I never saw too much to his game personally. He could barely skate... for a supposed super star. He had an excellent one-timer and could clean up around the net. Scored tons of garbage goals. Was a good passer as well and he could carry the puck all right despite his lack of speed/lackluster skating. He wasn't good at all defensively, though, and didn't seem to have intangibles. Cried his out of Ottawa. Plus there was the whole Snyder thing. He didn't achieve all that much, really.

3. Kovalchuk. He would have made it if he hadn't gone to the KHL. He still can, but I doubt he'll be close to the same player he was in his prime when he does come back. Was a point-per-game player despite spending his best years on a garbage team, but he didn't win enough to stand out for guy who didn't play 900 NHL games.

4. Kovalev. Inconsistent. Had some great seasons/moments but didn't put it all together often enough. He was actually quite good in the playoffs. I don't know... I don't think he'll be inducted.

5. Lecavalier. Upper middle-class man's Kovalev. Was legitimately a top three player in the NHL, albeit VERY briefly.

6. My boy Brad Richards. He carved out a very, very good career for himself for a guy who was supposed to not make it as an NHL'er.

The stupid **** lockouts basically screwed him over. The first one robbed him of a prime season and probably 80+ points. The second one really marked the beginning of the end for him.

He could probably have scored at least 45-50 points as a 19 year old in the NHL if TB had let him play instead of keeping him in the QMJHL.

Without the lockouts, he finishes with over 1000 points and probably gets in eventually.

If they do induct Vinny or Brad, I can see Lecavalier being selected instead of him (like usual) even though I'd rather have Richards if I was picking one of them for my team, and I'd be okay with that. I'd rather have Richards be remembered as a deserving Hall of Very Good player who could have been a HHOF'er than as a forced or weak sort of induction.



The rest of these guys should be Hall of Famers. I think some may not realize how good the careers of Elias and Alfredsson were without really analyzing their careers in detail.

Naslund will get in based on his peak and decent longevity, but I think he'll be a lower-tier induction. The others are obvious choices.

your saying Elias and Alfredsson had nothing in their careers dude your sadly mistaken Elias could've won the conn smythe in 2000 had Stevens not have won it. Although I would've went with Brodeur, or arnott as the MVP. alfie took a team not even a cup contender to 5 games in the cup final. And I agree with you on naslund he's a long shot but eventually he'll make it in. Lecavalier has a shot just not first ballot, same goes with Richards set the record for GWG in the playoffs will he make the hall very questionable. Personally doan should go in cuz he spent his while le career with Phoenix. He's a questionable one as well but because of how much of a leader he was he may get in.

 

[Giotrapani91]

And St. Louis will go in just not on first ballot he'll go in my prediction is him and Alflie go in, in 2019 unless St. Louis goes in, in the 2020 class.