HF's Best Forward of All-Time Tournament - FINALS - CLOSED - CROSBY WINS

[bobholly39]

People say that every year, but at this point what more does he need to do?

He finally wins the cup, has a great playoffs & takes home the Smythe

Leads the league in goals yet again last year, setting the record for most times leading in goals

Possible 10th time leading in goals this year, which would be 2 more than the next person (Hull)

Has now hit 700 goals, and there is serious talk that he could pass Gretzky in goals. (yes he's a ways away, but he's at least in the realm of possibility)

Well - Crosby is still playing too? And as much as Ovechkin keeps adding....Crosby keeps adding as much if not more. Recently had had the 2 smythes and 3 hart 2nd place. So it's not like Ovechkin is gaining ground, despite the cup/smythe and rockets.

Also if Ovechkin passes Gretzky - it'll be a hugely important milestone achievement - but i don't think that should determine if he's better than Crosby or others. If he's not better than Crosby with 890 career goals - he won't be better with 895.

Crosby is the only player in history who Ovechkin isn't gaining ground on the past few seasons, since he's pacing him. All those things you mention Ovi did - that's helping him gain ground on all the ones already retired. Hull, Beliveau, Jagr, etc.

 

[JackSlater]

People say that every year, but at this point what more does he need to do?

He finally wins the cup, has a great playoffs & takes home the Smythe

Leads the league in goals yet again last year, setting the record for most times leading in goals

Possible 10th time leading in goals this year, which would be 2 more than the next person (Hull)

Has now hit 700 goals, and there is serious talk that he could pass Gretzky in goals. (yes he's a ways away, but he's at least in the realm of possibility)

He needs to play better than Crosby does for a few years. I don't think that he gained any in the last two seasons, though he did in 2018. How Ovechkin does relative to some other players in goal scoring shouldn't change anything in his comparison to Crosby.

 

[Voight]

He needs to play better than Crosby does for a few years. I don't think that he gained any in the last two seasons, though he did in 2018. How Ovechkin does relative to some other players in goal scoring shouldn't change anything in his comparison to Crosby.

Thing is, he's ahead in awards by a considerable margin. 18-11 is pretty significant.

 

[JackSlater]

Thing is, he's ahead in awards by a considerable margin. 18-11 is pretty significant.

So? If they never created the Richard trophy in 1999 would Ovechkin be a worse player in any way? If Crosby hadn't been hit in the face with a puck in 2013 he very obviously takes the Hart from Ovechkin, but would that mean anything significant? I will certainly say that Oveckin has a nice NHL trophy case, but not that he's been the better player to this point.

 

[Voight]

So? If they never created the Richard trophy in 1999 would Ovechkin be a worse player in any way? If Crosby hadn't been hit in the face with a puck in 2013 he very obviously takes the Hart from Ovechkin, but would that mean anything significant? I will certainly say that Oveckin has a nice NHL trophy case, but not that he's been the better player to this point.

Trophy or no trophy, he'd still of lead the league in goals the same amount of times.

Lets not get into the "what ifs" and stuff like that, because thats just going to derail this thread.

 

[JackSlater]

Trophy or no trophy, he'd still of lead the league in goals the same amount of times.

Lets not get into the "what ifs" and stuff like that, because thats just going to derail this thread.

So you basically concede that the actual trophy is meaningless? That's good. Pointing out trophy totals is a stupid way to judge players, especially for players who have been so easy to watch over the course of their entire NHL careers.

I'll also speculate on whatever I like, but you're free to avoid that. You're probably right that it may open a rabbit hole, but honestly I'll probably just ignore going down there very deeply.

 

[Voight]

So you basically concede that the actual trophy is meaningless? That's good. Pointing out trophy totals is a stupid way to judge players, especially for players who have been so easy to watch over the course of their entire NHL careers.

I'll also speculate on whatever I like, but you're free to avoid that. You're probably right that it may open a rabbit hole, but honestly I'll probably just ignore going down there very deeply.

Trophy or no trophy he still lead the league in goals X amount of times. Its not that the trophy is meaningless. Just because there is no assist trophy, does not diminish the fact that Oates was the assist leader 3x.

For example, many people use the 1st AST as a "retro-Vezina" since before the Jennings, the Vezina was for lowest GAA - which is not a perfect way to accurately decide who the best goalie is. Likewise, some on the HOH board have said "Retro-Richard" since for some reason the NHL never had a goal scoring trophy (mind you every trophy has pretty much been donated so maybe they were waiting for someone to make their pown donation )

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin--Crosby
*assuming this season is over

Hart: 3--2
Finalist: 5--7
Top 10: 9--9
Lindsay: 3--3
Finalist: 6--6
Smythe: 1--2
Calder: 1--0

Crosby has been a Lindsay finalist 5 times, not 6.

Interesting that the players put top three finishes 6-5 in favor of Ovechkin, whereas the media puts it 5-7 in favor of Crosby. Two of the times the media had Crosby in the top 2, the players didn't even have him in the top 3.

 

[bobholly39]

Trophy or no trophy he still lead the league in goals X amount of times. Its not that the trophy is meaningless. Just because there is no assist trophy, does not diminish the fact that Oates was the assist leader 3x.

For example, many people use the 1st AST as a "retro-Vezina" since ebfore the Jennings, the Vezina was for lowest GAA - which is not a perfect way to accurately decide who the best goalie is. Likewise, some on the HOH board have said "Retro-Richard" since for some reason the NHL never had a goal scoring trophy (mind you every trophy has pretty much been donated so maybe they were waiting for someone to make their pown donation )

One of the problems with goal-scoring, it's that it's a subset of points, and points has always been the measure of tracking offense in the league. So giving too much importance to goals is a bit like double dipping.

So if player A scores 70 goals and 0 assists for 10 years, and player B scores 50 goals and 50 assists for 10 years - player B is probably better, even though player A likely has 10 rockets and player B may not have led in either goals or assists nor points in any of those 10 years.

Crosby doesn't lead in assists every year same way Ovi does in goals, but i don't think he has to, as overall offense/points is what counts. If you like goals a lot, of course Ovechkin scoring so much is significant - but if you give too much importance to leading in goals - you might say Ovechkin gets credit for a trophy in 2016 (rocket 50 goals) and Crosby doesn't (yet he has 85 points to Ovi's 71, and had the better offensive season).

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby has been a Lindsay finalist 5 times, not 6.

Interesting that the players put top three finishes 6-5 in favor of Ovechkin, whereas the media puts it 5-7 in favor of Crosby. Two of the times the media had Crosby in the top 2, the players didn't even have him in the top 3.

Yes you are correct about the lindsay nominations.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby has been a Lindsay finalist 5 times, not 6.

Interesting that the players put top three finishes 6-5 in favor of Ovechkin, whereas the media puts it 5-7 in favor of Crosby. Two of the times the media had Crosby in the top 2, the players didn't even have him in the top 3.

Just shows you that Crosby is the more valuable better player

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby has been a Lindsay finalist 5 times, not 6.

Interesting that the players put top three finishes 6-5 in favor of Ovechkin, whereas the media puts it 5-7 in favor of Crosby. Two of the times the media had Crosby in the top 2, the players didn't even have him in the top 3.

Hart and Lindsay nominations aren't exactly the same thing though. One is for most valuable player, and one is for most outstanding player/season. They aren't meant to match up exactly every year.

Players do still rate Crosby very highly obviously. Evidence of this is in the NHLPA polls (2x a year?) of the past few seasons - he's ranked best, or second best player almost everytime.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Crosby wins as expected

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Hart and Lindsay nominations aren't exactly the same thing though. One is for most valuable player, and one is for most outstanding player/season. They aren't meant to match up exactly every year.

Players do still rate Crosby very highly obviously. Evidence of this is in the NHLPA polls (2x a year?) of the past few seasons - he's ranked best, or second best player almost everytime.

NHLPA polls still list Carey Price as the best goaltender in the league, they don't put a ton of thought into those polls man. Not saying Crosby isn't still an elite player just giving some context as to the validity of those polls.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Ovechkin is below a ppg over the last decade. Crosby has been over a ppg every season of his career. There is no comparison after the first 5 seasons.

 

[Varan]

lord have mercy another one of these

 

[Dominance]

lord have mercy another one of these

Ovechkin fans can’t seem to get it through their heads.

It’s Howe vs Richard or Hull. There’s not an incredible gap, and some may vote for one because of sentimental preference for his playstyle or meaningfulness to them, but there’s really only one right way of ranking them when looking at their overall impact on the ice and statistical performance. One is just the superior player at everything but goalscoring.

 

[Brucelenok]

Ovechkin fans can’t seem to get it through their heads.

It’s Howe vs Richard or Hull. There’s not an incredible gap, and some may vote for one because of sentimental preference for his playstyle or meaningfulness to them, but there’s really only one right way of ranking them when looking at their overall impact on the ice and statistical performance. One is just the superior player at everything but goalscoring.

Ok there buddy.

1. Goalscoring is the most important aspect in hockey and the most difficult one
2. I can think about couple of other aspects of the game where Ovechkin is better than Crosby. For example hitting. Which is also important thing to consider when people compare the players, yet a lot of people around here pretend not to notice it... but try to compare players' IQs and leadership styles lol

 

[Varan]

Ovechkin fans can’t seem to get it through their heads.

It’s Howe vs Richard or Hull. There’s not an incredible gap, and some may vote for one because of sentimental preference for his playstyle or meaningfulness to them, but there’s really only one right way of ranking them when looking at their overall impact on the ice and statistical performance. One is just the superior player at everything but goalscoring.

I'm an OV fan but I'm just tired of these threads. It's been going on forever. No-one has ever swayed the other side. All the arguments are the same. There is nothing new to add here. Wait until they're retired.

This is so boring now.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I'm an OV fan but I'm just tired of these threads. It's been going on forever. No-one has ever swayed the other side. All the arguments are the same. There is nothing new to add here. Wait until they're retired.

This is so boring now.

These 256 participant bracket-style tournament threads?

 

[Voight]

I'm an OV fan but I'm just tired of these threads. It's been going on forever. No-one has ever swayed the other side. All the arguments are the same. There is nothing new to add here. Wait until they're retired.

This is so boring now.

HFB would probably implode if there wasnt a Crosby vs Ovy thread at least once a month

 

[Ryan Michaels]

This should be even more of a landslide, it's not a case of preference, there is an objective right and wrong. This was fun at the start of their careers but for the last decade you'd be hard pressed to make a case for Ovi being the best in the league at any point barring the lockout season. Sid got 100 points last year, Ovi hasn't hit 90 in a decade.

Two things the Ovi homers hang their hats on are goal scoring(fair) and the trophy case, they either overlook Crosby's injuries during his offensive peak or are holding them against him. I don't know how they reconcile putting such stock in durability but overlook the fact that Ovi hasn't been the leagues best player for a very long time.

God love Ovechkin, he's the best goal scorer ever, one of the most fun peaks ever, I'm thrilled he got his cup, all time great etc... but he's not Crosby, and he's not really close.

 

[Elvis P]

The top 3 are obviously Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux.

 

[nowhereman]

Ok there buddy.

1. Goalscoring is the most important aspect in hockey and the most difficult one
2. I can think about couple of other aspects of the game where Ovechkin is better than Crosby. For example hitting. Which is also important thing to consider when people compare the players, yet a lot of people around here pretend not to notice it... but try to compare players' IQs and leadership styles lol

Generating offense is the most important aspect of hockey and that means more than just scoring goals off your stick. The Richard trophies are impressive, there's no denying that, but it is not an indicator of a player's overall ability to impact the game. It measures one aspect of offensive contribution. Crosby's critics (i.e. OV fanboys and Philly/Rangers fans) go on ad nauseam about the disproportionate value of goals vs. assists and "secondary assists", without ever seeming to acknowledge that players who drive offense more actively usually generate more assists. If they were the consolation prize some see them as, Ovechkin would have more of them. But that's not the case, since Ovechkin doesn't drive offensive like he did at his incredible peak (where he was dominant in all areas of the game). And, no, that doesn't mean OV isn't a strong playmaker or that he's been relegated to being the protypical "trigger man". It just means that plays are much more often finished off of Ovechkin's stick, rather than starting with them.

The stats and eye test indicate that Crosby is/was the better play-driver and generated offense in more varied ways than OV. At the end of the day, it's tough to compare the two players, since one is primarily a goal-scorer, while the other is more of an all-around offensive contributor with a leaning toward playmaking. But, if you look at the context of their offensive production, I'd say that Sid's is a bit higher overall.

 

[Varan]

These 256 participant bracket-style tournament threads?

not the tournament

i mean these crosby v OV threads. You knew exactly what this would turn into